Today's (April 8) Mass readings (Christ betrayed / Judas in Hell [?] / Predestination?)

[distracted]

Wednesday (4-8)

**Isaiah 50:4-9: **

The Lord God has given me a well-trained tongue, that I might know how to speak to the weary a word that will rouse them. Morning after morning he opens my ear that I may hear; and I have not rebelled, have not turned back. I gave my back to those who bet me, my cheeks to those who plucked my beard; my face I did not shield from buffets and spitting. The Lord God is my help, therefore I am not disgraced; I have set my face like flint, knowing that I shall not be put to shame. He is near who upholds my right; if anyone wishes to oppose me, let us appear together. Who disputes my right? Let him confront me. See, the Lord God is my help; who will prove me wrong?

Ps 69: Lord, in your great love, answer me…

St. Mt 26:14-25:

One of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, “what are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” They paid him thirty pieces of silver, and from that time on he looked for an opportunity to hand him over. On the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve. And while they were eating, he said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, “Surely it is not I, Lord?” He said in reply, “He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me. The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” He answered, “You have said so.”

*I have always wondered what would have happened if Judas had repented and what mystifies me more than that is… What if Judas had repented before he had done any damage? Then would Jesus have still died on the Cross? If it was pre-ordained that Judas betray Christ, then maybe that’s where Presbyterians and others get this notion that some are destined for Heaven and some for Hell…(?) I have to say i don’t understand… *

 

[NotWorthy]

*I have always wondered what would have happened if Judas had repented and what mystifies me more than that is… What if Judas had repented before he had done any damage? Then would Jesus have still died on the Cross? If it was pre-ordained that Judas betray Christ, then maybe that’s where Presbyterians and others get this notion that some are destined for Heaven and some for Hell…(?) I have to say i don’t understand… *

What would have happened if Mary had said, “No”. What would have happened if John the Baptist died prior to the Baptism of Jesus?

Just as with Judas, God’s plan would have still gone further, but along different details. God, who is not bound by Time, knew in advance that Judas would betray our Lord and follow through on that betrayal. But He never forced Judas to do this>

It would be far too cruel to create an individual simply so that you can send him to hell. God is the God of Love, mind you.

Very good question, though!

 

[distracted]

What would have happened if Mary had said, “No”. What would have happened if John the Baptist died prior to the Baptism of Jesus?

Just as with Judas, God’s plan would have still gone further, but along different details. God, who is not bound by Time, knew in advance that Judas would betray our Lord and follow through on that betrayal. But He never forced Judas to do this>

It would be far too cruel to create an individual simply so that you can send him to hell. God is the God of Love, mind you.

Very good question, though!

I know this is going to sound contentious… or something… but i don’t see how God could bvoth know in advance that Judas would betray Christ and also give him just as much free will as anyone else…

The first part of your response made sense, though… that God would have found a way if Judas had… repented…

 

[NotWorthy]

I know this is going to sound contentious… or something… but i don’t see how God could bvoth know in advance that Judas would betray Christ and also give him just as much free will as anyone else…

The first part of your response made sense, though… that God would have found a way if Judas had… repented…

If I put a plate of chocolate chip cookies in front of my child and tell him he can’t have any until after dinner… all the while knowing that as soon as I walk away he’s going to eat one, hoping that I wouldn’t notice that one is missing, does he still have the Free Will to do it?

Maybe a better example, since God knew Judas’ love for money (you’ll notice in the Gospel of John that Judas was robbing from the till, so to speak), would be - if I placed a bottle of whiskey in front of an alcoholic and told them not to touch it…

 

[chubby_bear]

I belive if Judas would of said no, the chance would have been given to some one else. Because God gives us free will the time it took to happen would have change but not the fact that it would happen

 

[Tim_Taylor]

Predestination is an interesting topic. First of all we should examine the topic, in terms of temporal consequences. Because we know we live in a causal universe, where for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That’s given us as a natural law of the physical sciences. As such we can ascertain the outcome of actions by an understanding of cause-effect relationships. However, GOD knows much more about that which will come to pass, to which the Bible is always very prophetic. It is clear that GOD knows the future, and the past. but then we must ask, “Did GOD know Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit and permit this to happen?” It is clear we have free will, to do as we please, to choose to do GOD’s will and keep the commandments, or to choose to serve false masters. I believe that what Judas Iscariot did was to choose to serve a false master in mammon, that in itself, i believe is a violation of the covenant. Though we believe also “All sin which is repented can be forgiven,” all that is except one sin, the sin which is blasphemy against the HOLY SPIRIT.

But was Judas Iscariot predestined to be the betrayer? Were Adam and Eve predestined to fall in the Garden? I would answer this by a principal of the natural creation, in either inheritance or the fruit of a tree. That is we understand that being of a family, we have inheritance, from our forefathers, having flesh inherited from our ancestry. We come from the stock of Adam and Eve, we know this, it is our inheritance, and so also we inherit Original Sin. We have inheritance also in that which will come, that is the possessions of our father’s we also inherit. Or in a kingdom, a prince inherits the throne of his father, thus becoming king, which is a familial inheritance in worldly kingdoms. Or again a tree which is planted as a tiny seed becomes a great tree, and bears fruits, and those fruits originate from a tiny seed which planted in good soil, given sunlight and water, bear fruit in due season.

Understanding that temporal consequence is rooted in causal relationships, and that the outcome of original sin, which the Bible suggests was not at all what GOD wanted, or even that GOD knew would come to be, until GOD found Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden covering their nakedness. We might say GOD allows for evil to happen to bring a greater good from it, as we are permitted free will, and that GOD put the TREE OF LIFE and the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE of good and evil there, to allow that Adam and Eve could LOVE GOD, but the serpent came along and put them to the test, to which they failed and were cast out. Father Corapi, on EWTN stated that GOD “permits” evil, to bring a greater good out of it. So it could be that GOD permitted the fall of man to bring the greater good of the redemption out of it. However, the temporal causality of inheritance, is evident in the building of the KINGDOM OF GOD. Because we are born into sin we have an inheritance in sin, and that sin we must renounce to embrace our inheritance in the KINGDOM OF GOD.

For a man shall leave his mother and father . . . and this is what we must do in order to have an inheritance in CHRIST’s family, because CHRIST’s KINGDOM is not of this world. the LORD has gone to HEAVEN to take HIS rightful seat at the right hand of GOD OUR FATHER. That being understood, this was CHRIST’s inheritance even while among us on Earth, and from the beginning of time. We then in CHRIST have an inheritance that was, and is, and shall ever be because of JESUS CHRIST. And those who have their inheritance in this worldly kingdom, were this from the beginning and are this, and shall be this. Thus i suggest to you that by Judas Iscariot’s master, being in mammon, his choice was a worldly inheritance in sin, thus from the beginning Judas Iscariot was this, and his inheritance then is with the devil and his demons.

Everyone who believes in JESUS CHRIST, and keeps his commandments, abides also in JESUS CHRIST, and has an inheritance in ETERNITY. They will live forever in the GLORY OF HEAVEN, that is their inheritance. And as such they always were the people of the LORD, they are the people of the LORD, and always also will be that. Thus it is a sign of our predestination that we believe in our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and in the Perpetual Virginity of our Blessed Mother Mary.

Amen.
LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
GOD bless you all.

 

[distracted]

If I put a plate of chocolate chip cookies in front of my child and tell him he can’t have any until after dinner… all the while knowing that as soon as I walk away he’s going to eat one, hoping that I wouldn’t notice that one is missing, does he still have the Free Will to do it?

it depends… on the age of the child.

Maybe a better example, since God knew Judas’ love for money (you’ll notice in the Gospel of John that Judas was robbing from the till, so to speak), would be - if I placed a bottle of whiskey in front of an alcoholic and told them not to touch it…

well, it seems to me that Judas should have loved Jesus more than the &^% money… but then, i guess that’s the whole point… he didn’t… & for some strange reason, he stopped loving him long before the Las Supper when he was possessed of the devil… otherwise that possession would not have happened…

just as the alcoholic in your analogy could hardly be expected to resist the whiskey (i can relate… )… Judas couldn’t resist the $…

but again, its strange because… he DID try to tkae the money back… (are we going around in circles here??? )

anyway… i feel i am getting an answer as to how God knew Judas would do but still had free will & all that… but not an answer as to Judas’ apparent repentance… except, that (again, going back to what was said before…) he just felt… hmm… I’m thinking… (I do that once in awhile… )… well, i am thinking that he did repent but that he had to take another step… he would not Totally accept Christ’s forgivenes…

kinda sad… i can relate to this because there was a time when i felt that way… and i felt that way, deep inside, for many yrs… stayed away from intimacy with Christ because of it… didn’t even know how to get close to Him, actually… but in any case, i kept thinking about returning to God but felt “unworthy”…

It was only… and I mean ONLY “things Catholic” that got me out of this LIE…

thank God for the Romanc Catholic Church…

 

[distracted]

Predestination is an interesting topic. First of all we should examine the topic, in terms of temporal consequences. Because we know we live in a causal universe, where for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That’s given us as a natural law of the physical sciences. As such we can ascertain the outcome of actions by an understanding of cause-effect relationships. However, GOD knows much more about that which will come to pass, to which the Bible is always very prophetic. It is clear that GOD knows the future, and the past. but then we must ask, “Did GOD know Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit and permit this to happen?” It is clear we have free will, to do as we please, to choose to do GOD’s will and keep the commandments, or to choose to serve false masters. I believe that what Judas Iscariot did was to choose to serve a false master in mammon, that in itself, i believe is a violation of the covenant. Though we believe also “All sin which is repented can be forgiven,” all that is except one sin, the sin which is blasphemy against the HOLY SPIRIT.

i will read the rest of your post later… couldn’t let this get by without comment…

I believe the unforgivable sin of blashphemy against the HS is to reject, forever and always, the forgivenss of Christ… to reject having your sins washed off your soul… In which case, Judas could still have been forgiven after he betrayed Christ… up until the point he hanged himself and even beyond (whne his soul left his body)… I doubt he did repent becsaue Jesus said it was better he hadn’t been born…

if he had just WANTED to be forgiven, though… he could have been…
Actually, now i think about it, mabye the unforgivable sin is to NOT WANT forgiveness… (or that is another way of defining it)… and even this sin can be forgiven if one changes his mind/repents, although it is far less likely a person Will repent once he has made this choice…

anyway, the RCC teaches that no sin is unforgivable…

 

[qui_est_ce]

but again, its strange because… he DID try to tkae the money back… (are we going around in circles here??? )

That’s a puzzler for me as well.

Judas tried to give the money back. But they didn’t take the money back. What is the significance?

I know the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But doesn’t that mean it’s a mortal sin which must be confessed in Confession?

 

[qui_est_ce]

iI believe the unforgivable sin of blashphemy against the HS is to reject, forever and always, the forgivenss of Christ… to reject having your sins washed off your soul… In which case, Judas could still have been forgiven after he betrayed Christ… up until the point he hanged himself and even beyond (whne his soul left his body)… I doubt he did repent becsaue Jesus said it was better he hadn’t been born…

if he had just WANTED to be forgiven, though… he could have been…
Actually, now i think about it, mabye the unforgivable sin is to NOT WANT forgiveness… (or that is another way of defining it)… and even this sin can be forgiven if one changes his mind/repents, although it is far less likely a person Will repent once he has made this choice…

anyway, the RCC teaches that no sin is unforgivable…

Our priest in yesterday’s homily sad the dfference between Peter’s sin ad Judas’s sin was that Peter repented, Judas didn’t. Judas did not trust in God’s mercy and forgiveness.

The RP is about trusting in God’s mercy.

 

[distracted]

I belive if Judas would of said no, the chance would have been given to some one else. Because God gives us free will the time it took to happen would have change but not the fact that it would happen

this is basically what i believe…

Judas ALWAYS had the option of NOT doing it…

and even after Jesus was actually crucified… he still could have been forgiven… Up until the very end, one has the option of accepting forgivenes… but it is very difficult for someone like Judas to do this… because sin darkens the mind and well, sin invites the devil in and the devil had possession of Judas… something Judas had ascented to… by his continuous sinful behavior… the devil, undoubtedly told Judas he could forget about forgivenes…

which, by the way is another argument against osas… If one sins repeatedly, pretty soon the soul becomes soiled by sin… and then sin blinds him, tells him such things as You are hopeless… God will never take you back…

I was told this lie myself and believed it, although not whole-heartedly…(just 99% ) for many yrs…

maybe my life story proves the points i have been trying to make here @ this thread more than anything else… i know what it’s like to think/feel as Judas probbly did… that he was hopeless… fortunately, the Catholic Church lifted me out of this ditch… (of satan’s lies)…

 

[bullfrog654]

i agree we have along ways to go. i agree that cleansing your self by the holy spirit and or perhaps forces such as blame or the light of jesus. many forces i believe create universal control the only opposit is similar to satans having pride in wanting or to want as you said. to want to be better then god. thus the opposition, the flame the torch running in the marathon. being blessed by a pastor might just do it.

 

[distracted]

That’s a puzzler for me as well.

Judas tried to give the money back. But they didn’t take the money back. What is the significance?

I know the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But doesn’t that mean it’s a mortal sin which must be confessed in Confession?

the sin of blashphemy against the HS can only be ascertained at the very end of one 's life… What i mean is that a key component of this sin is …

I’ll put it this way:

it means to say, Forever and Always:

I will NOT accept forgiveness …

Even up to the point when one’s soul leaves the body… I believe (don’t know for sure if the Church teaches this… but i strongly believe that) even then a soul can say “God, please forgive me of all my sins”…

If the soul doesn’t repent like this… he won’t be forgiven…

Jesus warned us about this sin and its terrible seriousness because he didn’t want anyone to let his soul get so “muddied” up with sin and the lies of the devil that come from sin… that the soul would feel hopeless and/or get so comfortable with sin that he couldn’t see living (or being) any other way…

hope i am making sense…

again, the RCC teaches there is NO unforgivable sin… except not wanting to be forgiven… (i am paraphrasing, can’t guarantee the Church would totally accept this last sentence… but feel that it would…)…

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s a puzzler for me as well.

Judas tried to give the money back. But they didn’t take the money back. What is the significance?

The Jewish Sanhedrin could condemn an innocent man, but it was “beneath them” to accept blood money for the Temple treasury.

Yeah… that makes sense!

 

[bullfrog654]

i believe mother nature will find away and you can find the goodness in something if you really look. day after day i look fear straight in the face after awhile you become amune. when i was living on the street i lived a fasting life and called the town my home because it was.

i believe if you look at something as a test of GODS then you can pass the test. at times the holy spirit will guide you to good form of mind.

i read once the devil bounces each angel on his knee with pride but when he reaches the weakest he trembles. god is powerful and all knowing. he makes us saints (the popes choice) he makes us marters i think a marter is good. but most of all he makes us in the image of god. yes the space is vast some say could fit in a box.

since i talk about boxes i read at my site that a little girl put the most expensive wrapping paper on a box at christmas and the mom gave her heck the daughter said but mom i blew endless kisses in it. later the daughter died and the mom had remembered the box and opened it every day filled with kisses.

this is the box i meen.

we humans have come along way since idol worship from egypts days. im proad to be catholic those days must of been savage.

 

[bullfrog654]

dont no why and i dont want to know but there are steps with the holy spirit as long as i dont formet my past etc. sin can be admirable by some i feel that way at times. sin in my understanding and you dont need mats as tails ha ha sin can be seen as the dark side of the holy spirit. i have a numeralogy poem on the subjest some where. confusion of a mascarade voice can appear however noticable i suppose to some. this is how i believe sin can be forgiven sort of comunicating with the holy spirit.

 

[bullfrog654]

i read somewhere ignorance is forgiven by god so id presume not asking for forgiveness can be forgiven

 

[qui_est_ce]

The Jewish Sanhedrin could condemn an innocent man, but it was “beneath them” to accept blood money for the Temple treasury.

Yeah… that makes sense!

So it seems Judas was sorry when he tried to give back the money. But really Judas despaired and did not believe in God’s forgivness?

 

[Tim_Taylor]

again, the RCC teaches there is NO unforgivable sin… except not wanting to be forgiven… (i am paraphrasing, can’t guarantee the Church would totally accept this last sentence… but feel that it would…)…

JESUS CHRIST is MERCIFUL to all who call upon HIM. That being said, Let us see in the scripture when the LORD did punish the wicked. Just a couple of examples. 1. The debtor who begged for MERCY before the great KING and received MERCY, but then went out to punish another who owed him. We pray FATHER forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. 2. The Wicked Thief, who being in the dark, mocked the LORD in unbelief. Thus it is said Whoever believes in JESUS CHRIST is not judged, but whoever does not believe is judged already. 3. The couple who stole from the Apostles and returned and lied to the Apostles, after having received of the Gift of the HOLY SPIRIT. They fell dead where they stood in their sin. 4. Onan went into his brother’s wife and spilled his seed. Again the man fell dead where he stood. 5. The Apostles were sent out to the towns and told that whoever would accept them, let their peace rest on that household. But whoever rejected them, it would be a woe unto that town.

With that said Caine who slew his brother Able did beg for MERCY and was granted a pardon, but was banished to the land of nod, and marked that anyone who slew Caine would be punished.

We believe in the forgiveness of sins. Ask and you shall receive. Freely you have received freely you shall give. But the devil and his angels are already judged, their fate is sealed. But we have the opportunity to repent and come to CHRIST. In coming to CHRIST our sins are washed away, for even if our sins were as scarlet they will be made white as snow.

It is sure that all who call upon the LORD will receive HIS MERCY. That’s the entire point of JESUS CHRIST’s sacrifice, that while we were yet sinners, CHRIST died for our sins, that though we are unworthy, we can receive GRACE and redemption.

Amen
LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
GOD bless you all.

 

[NotWorthy]

So it seems Judas was sorry when he tried to give back the money. But really Judas despaired and did not believe in God’s forgivness?

I would agree that Judas fell into despair. He couldn’t conceive of the plan (the Jews had) that he (Judas) put in motion until it was too late.

Did Judas believe in God’s Forgiveness? I have a feeling that Judas went through emotions similar to what I sometimes have - I have sinned so greviously, that there is no way in hell (pardon the pun) that Christ would forgive me. We all seem to believe that our sins are somehow worse than every one else’s.