Today's Mass Readings (concerning Once-saved always-saved?)

  • Thread starter Thread starter distracted
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think all informed Protestants agree that salvation is a process of past, present, and future tenses.
Wow. There must be a vast army of uninformed Protestants!

I look forward to witnessing a dialogue between you and some of our staunch OSAS people here. They seem pretty well informed to me.
However, the dispute and disvision has to do with past tense in regards to the doctrine of justification. I’m not sure how a Roman Catholic can talk about the past tense of salvation with Roman Catholic theology.
Catholics (all of them, not just those of the Latin Rite) believe that baptism is salvific.

“And baptism, which this prefigured, **now saves you **— not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” 1 Peter 3:21-22

A person coming up from the baptismal waters is spotless and pure, clothed with the wedding garment, and ready to meet the bridegroom.
Actually, Paul uses the past tense quite a bit in describing salvation and have already been justified.
I guess, then, I am puzzled why you think Catholics would have trouble. Perhaps you did not know that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. Everything in it is Catholic.
 
Christ first speaks through the Scriptures and the church if it is speaking for Christ must speak what Christ taught.
This is true, God did reveal Himself through Moses and the Prophets. Yet, though the Scriptures testified of Him, He came to His own, and they knew Him not. He spoke to them, gave them signs, and died for them, but they still did not recognize Him. Clearly knowledge of the Scripture is not necessarily sufficient. 🤷

Jesus committed His message to His Church, which He built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The reason that the Church speaks what Christ taught is because He is the Head of the Church. The reason that there is nothing in the NT that contradicts the Catholic faith is that it was written by, for, and about Catholics.
This is absolutely important since the church is not infallible and has and can err.
I think you must cling to this myth so that you can resist coming to the Church that Christ built. It would require that you relinquish your deeply ingrained hatred of the Catholic Church, and you can’t seem to do that.
That’s why the inspired-inerrant Word of God must take first place in matters of importance. All human teachers and institutions are to be under the authority of the Scriptures.
Betcha can’t find that in your bible. 😉

One of the best examples of a rampant man made doctrine.
We must not just accept all that a church may teach without first comparing that teaching to the Scriptures otherwise you will find yourself following the doctrines of men.
This is especially true for all those separated from the Apostolic succession. The gift of infallibility was given to the Church through the Apostles. They passed on this treasure to their successors. Persons who are not in communion with them are prone to “follow the doctrines of men” with great gusto.
Again, this is not NT teaching. Acts 4:12 addresses this where it says: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
This may come as a shock to you, but the NT does not “teach”. Teaching is an activity that is done by a person. As valuable as the Holy Writings are, they don’t “teach” themselves. If they did, Jesus would not have needed to appoint teachers.
Salvation is in the God-man the Lord Jesus Christ and not in a church. The church has another function i.e. to build up believers.
There is no separation between Christ and His church.
The sin issue was dealt with at the cross. Colossians 2:13-14 makes this staggering claim and promise to us where it says:

This why not even sin can separate us from Christ since He has already defeated it at the cross… Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! 2 Cor 9:15
Indeed, Christ did deal with sin at the cross. However, the nature of sin did not change. It separates us from Him as much after His crucifixion as before. Although He died for all, not all have their sins forgiven. To benefit from His sacrifice, we have to have the benefits applied to us personally. When this does not happen, we are separated from Him by sin.
One of the characteristics of a true follower of Christ is that he perserveres. If that person is no longer following Christ he was not really His to begin with. This kind of person is described in the parable of the sower. See Matthew 13:18-23 espeically verses 19-22.
This is a doctrine of men.
If a person chooses not to follow Him i would take this as a sign he was never His to begin with. Again the parable of the sower alludes to this.
What we see in the parable of the sower is that only one fourth of the seeds never took root “to begin with”. One quarter persevered, and the other 50% began but did not finish. This is a poor parable to use to back up OSAS.
 
guanophore;4332251]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Christ first speaks through the Scriptures and the church if it is speaking for Christ must speak what Christ taught.

guanophore
This is true, God did reveal Himself through Moses and the Prophets. Yet, though the Scriptures testified of Him, He came to His own, and they knew Him not. He spoke to them, gave them signs, and died for them, but they still did not recognize Him. Clearly knowledge of the Scripture is not necessarily sufficient.
Ye do err here. The problem is not with the Scriptures but with men who are fallen. Man is without excuse and supressed the knowledge of God.
Jesus committed His message to His Church, which He built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The reason that the Church speaks what Christ taught is because He is the Head of the Church. The reason that there is nothing in the NT that contradicts the Catholic faith is that it was written by, for, and about Catholics.
There are so many errors in this claim. We already know that the Scriptures never even mention the Marian doctrine claims and it has already been demonstrated that a celibate unmarried man as a requirement for a bishop in the Roman rite is a direct denial of the Scriptures model for the church. I could also mention the Tresaury of Merit and indulgences that are also as something the apostles never taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is absolutely important since the church is not infallible and has and can err.
guanophore
I think you must cling to this myth so that you can resist coming to the Church that Christ built. It would require that you relinquish your deeply ingrained hatred of the Catholic Church, and you can’t seem to do that.
Is the Catholic church infallible and inerrant? Can it err?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
That’s why the inspired-inerrant Word of God must take first place in matters of importance. All human teachers and institutions are to be under the authority of the Scriptures.
guanophore
Betcha can’t find that in your bible.
One of the best examples of a rampant man made doctrine.
No need to find in the Scriptures. The mere fact that the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant makes them a higher authority than the church. The Scriptures cannot err while the church has since we know it is composed of fallen men.
 
guanophore;4332251]
Originally Posted by justasking4
We must not just accept all that a church may teach without first comparing that teaching to the Scriptures otherwise you will find yourself following the doctrines of men.
guanophore
This is especially true for all those separated from the Apostolic succession. The gift of infallibility was given to the Church through the Apostles. They passed on this treasure to their successors. Persons who are not in communion with them are prone to “follow the doctrines of men” with great gusto.
Do you believe everything that the Roman Catholic church teaches?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Again, this is not NT teaching. Acts 4:12 addresses this where it says: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
guanophore
This may come as a shock to you, but the NT does not “teach”. Teaching is an activity that is done by a person. As valuable as the Holy Writings are, they don’t “teach” themselves. If they did, Jesus would not have needed to appoint teachers.
When you read the Scriptures on your own and learn something it would be true to say that the Scriptures “taught you”. Remember part of teaching is imparting knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Salvation is in the God-man the Lord Jesus Christ and not in a church. The church has another function i.e. to build up believers.
guanophore
There is no separation between Christ and His church.
If only this were true.
Originally Posted by justasking4
The sin issue was dealt with at the cross. Colossians 2:13-14 makes this staggering claim and promise to us where it says:
This why not even sin can separate us from Christ since He has already defeated it at the cross… Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! 2 Cor 9:15
guanophore
Indeed, Christ did deal with sin at the cross. However, the nature of sin did not change. It separates us from Him as much after His crucifixion as before. Although He died for all, not all have their sins forgiven. To benefit from His sacrifice, we have to have the benefits applied to us personally. When this does not happen, we are separated from Him by sin.
When a believe sins he is not separated from Christ. Rather he has grieved the HS. If he does not repent and ask for forgiveness he may find himself disciplined by the Lord. At no point is a person who is truly in Christ ever separated from Him.
Originally Posted by justasking4
One of the characteristics of a true follower of Christ is that he perserveres. If that person is no longer following Christ he was not really His to begin with. This kind of person is described in the parable of the sower. See Matthew 13:18-23 espeically verses 19-22.
guanophore
This is a doctrine of men.
How so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If a person chooses not to follow Him i would take this as a sign he was never His to begin with. Again the parable of the sower alludes to this.
guanophore
What we see in the parable of the sower is that only one fourth of the seeds never took root “to begin with”. One quarter persevered, and the other 50% began but did not finish. This is a poor parable to use to back up OSAS.
Its an excellent passage for OSAS since it demonstrates that those who perserve are the ones who are saved. They are not saved by their own power but by the power of Christ in them. No one can claim to be OSAS without the work of the Spirit. That’s why Jesus promised that the no one will be able to snatch them out of His hand.

Another passage that supports OSAS can be found in Phil 1:6 --For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. This work of salvation in us is being done by God Himself and He will “perfect it” i.e. to complete, to finish. It is by God’s power that we are OSAS.
 
we want to leave because some sin or another looks better than staying with God (Christ)… Once we suffer the consequences of our sin(s) we will want to come back… but then again… some get caught up in a sinful life & never really make it back… or if they do, they have a lot of expiating to do…

God doesn’t tel us not to sin because he wants to be a tyrant… and wants us to suffer (do without some pleasure) and love only Him… but becaue he loves us so much… & knows what’s best for us and how much sin destroys us (and those with whom we commit it… 😦 )

It seems some don’t look at it that way… they don’t look at it like they would look at the consequences of… say, crossing an L.A. highway during rush hour… They wouldn’t do THAT but they don’t seem to mind doing that kind of dangerous thing with their souls…

Either that or they are just ignorant… like i used to be…

Anyway… i guess i am digressing…

God bless. 🙂
Yes, I do agree with that answer.
 
One of the characteristics of a true follower of Christ is that he perserveres. If that person is no longer following Christ he was not really His to begin with. This kind of person is described in the parable of the sower. See Matthew 13:18-23 espeically verses 19-22.
This is NOT true… I was filled with the Holy Spirit when i wasvery young… and i fell in love with Jesus and stayed in love for a couple of years… To this day, i don’t fully understand waht happend… but suffice it to say that i just fell away little by little… and ended up in the devil’s camp… I never denied Christ but i also did not live for him… Then i found a rosary… and prayed it (don’t even know why because i didn’t believe in the rosary then… didn’t think it would do one thing for me… )… My life changed 180 degrees… and now i am back with Jesus… Would i have gone to Hell if i had died while “away from Jesus”. No… i don’t think so… but would have gone to temporary Hell, otherwise known as Purgatory… because i hadbecome impure… Purgatoyr is not “punishment” for sin… It is just a way of getting sin washed off our souls… by the Blood of Jesus… As Jesus told one saint, when he took her to Purgatory, “My mercy does not want this, but Justice requires it…”
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
One of the characteristics of a true follower of Christ is that he perserveres. If that person is no longer following Christ he was not really His to begin with. This kind of person is described in the parable of the sower. See Matthew 13:18-23 espeically verses 19-22.

distracted
This is NOT true… I was filled with the Holy Spirit when i wasvery young… and i fell in love with Jesus and stayed in love for a couple of years… To this day, i don’t fully understand waht happend… but suffice it to say that i just fell away little by little… and ended up in the devil’s camp… I never denied Christ but i also did not live for him… Then i found a rosary… and prayed it (don’t even know why because i didn’t believe in the rosary then… didn’t think it would do one thing for me… )… My life changed 180 degrees… and now i am back with Jesus… Would i have gone to Hell if i had died while “away from Jesus”. No… i don’t think so… but would have gone to temporary Hell, otherwise known as Purgatory… because i hadbecome impure… Purgatoyr is not “punishment” for sin… It is just a way of getting sin washed off our souls… by the Blood of Jesus… As Jesus told one saint, when he took her to Purgatory, “My mercy does not want this, but Justice requires it…”
Falling away has to do with a total rejection of Christ and a turning to the world. An example of this would be someone who once believed and now no longer believes Christ died for their sins.
Purgatoyr is not “punishment” for sin… It is just a way of getting sin washed off our souls… by the Blood of Jesus… As Jesus told one saint, when he took her to Purgatory, “My mercy does not want this, but Justice requires it…”
So you do not believe that Jesus death on the cross did not totally pay for your sins and did not satisfy fully the justice of God?
 
Falling away has to do with a total rejection of Christ and a turning to the world. An example of this would be someone who once believed and now no longer believes Christ died for their sins.

So you do not believe that Jesus death on the cross did not totally pay for your sins and did not satisfy fully the justice of God?
i wish you would quit with this already!!

NO - for the last time: I DO NOT believe that!!!

(For details, read my past posts… i have to admit i am getting a little tired of repeating myself…)

God bless… :harp:
 
Right, the people whom Jesus is referring to are those who follow him. What if someone once was, but is no longer? Is that person still following Jesus? Is Jesus still referring to them here?

Can a person snatch or seize him/herself out of something?

If yes, send me the video. :eek:

If no, then that means Jesus wasn’t including the actual person when he mentioned people being able to snatch. Can a person choose to leave God? Unless he can snatch himself out, this passage does not say “no.” Nobody can take me away from God, except myself if I choose not to follow Him.
That’s my view also. We are secure with the Father–He will not let anyone snatch us from Him. But because we are children and not slaves, we are free to go, if for whatever reason we choose to leave. An example is that of the Prodigal Son.

When a slave leave, they drag him back. But when a child leaves, because he is a child, he is permitted to go.
 
That’s my view also. We are secure with the Father–He will not let anyone snatch us from Him. But because we are children and not slaves, we are free to go, if for whatever reason we choose to leave. An example is that of the Prodigal Son.

When a slave leave, they drag him back. But when a child leaves, because he is a child, he is permitted to go.
Exactly. And in the Prodigal Son story, the son chose to return. The two would not have been reunited it not for the son’s decision. :hug3:
 
Ye do err here. The problem is not with the Scriptures but with men who are fallen. Man is without excuse and supressed the knowledge of God.
Oh, I agree! However, reading the scripture is not sufficient to save a man’s soul. Unbelievers read it all the time, they study it as literature in college, they use it to make movies, some say it is just a collection of myths. The Bible does not save people.
There are so many errors in this claim. We already know that the Scriptures never even mention the Marian doctrine claims and it has already been demonstrated that a celibate unmarried man as a requirement for a bishop in the Roman rite is a direct denial of the Scriptures model for the church. I could also mention the Tresaury of Merit and indulgences that are also as something the apostles never taught.
Yes, yes. the broken record of misunderstandings that you keep bringing forth as detraction against Christ’s church. Do you think you are making any progress? Have you been able to pull anyone away from the Catholic faith with these erroneous mantras?
Is the Catholic church infallible and inerrant? Can it err?
The Head of the Church is Christ. She is ensouled by the HS. The reason the church cannot err is that God cannot err. Men err,and members of the church are fallible.
No need to find in the Scriptures. The mere fact that the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant makes them a higher authority than the church.
This is what you have been taught to believe.
The Scriptures cannot err while the church has since we know it is composed of fallen men.
This represents a deficient understanding of the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. It is not a headless body, as the Body without the Head is dead.

The fallen men who belong to the Body are not more powerful than God.
 
Do you believe everything that the Roman Catholic church teaches?
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. I don’t know how to answer this question. I think you have invented something, and are asking me if I believe it.
When you read the Scriptures on your own and learn something it would be true to say that the Scriptures “taught you”. Remember part of teaching is imparting knowledge.
I do learn from scripture, but it is because I engage it with my mind and heart. Ask any teacher. Teaching is a skill, and art, a profession, and a calling. Texts don’t “teach” themselves. People engage the text and learn from it, or they are taught about it. You are ascribing qualities to the HOly Writings that don’t belong to them.
When a believe sins he is not separated from Christ. Rather he has grieved the HS. If he does not repent and ask for forgiveness he may find himself disciplined by the Lord. At no point is a person who is truly in Christ ever separated from Him.
I hope you can explain that to Ananias and Sapphira!
The Apostles taught that one can begin with Christ,then fall away, or turn away, or be pulled away.
Its an excellent passage for OSAS since it demonstrates that those who perserve are the ones who are saved. They are not saved by their own power but by the power of Christ in them. No one can claim to be OSAS without the work of the Spirit. That’s why Jesus promised that the no one will be able to snatch them out of His hand.
Yes, those that persevere are the ones that are saved, but 50% of those that began to grow the seed failed. That is not a very good “proof” for OSAS.
Another passage that supports OSAS can be found in Phil 1:6 --For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. This work of salvation in us is being done by God Himself and He will “perfect it” i.e. to complete, to finish. It is by God’s power that we are OSAS.
It is by God’s power that we are perfected, but Paul is very clear that there are some that will not be.
 
If OSAS is not true then what do we make of John 10:27-29 where Jesus taught about His true followers the following:
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
 
When you read the Scriptures on your own and learn something it would be true to say that the Scriptures “taught you”.
Whoa! One sec.

Acts 8:30-32
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

A good teacher is needed to make a good student. The Bible can’t do it alone. That’s also why apostolic succession is so important.
 
When you read the Scriptures on your own and learn something it would be true to say that the Scriptures “taught you”. Remember part of teaching is imparting knowledge.
No, teaching is a verb, and requires action, which is not the purview of text. I might believe that the HS illuminated my mind, and I learned something, but the Scriptures don’t “teach”. They testify. They are the written record of the beliefs and practices of the church. Scripture is a collection of documents.

If I am reading my history text, I do not say “my history book taught me about the Crusades”. I might say “I learned about the Crusades reading my history book”. I think you are trying to assing attributes where they do not belong. Scripture was never intended to be the “authority” or the 'teacher". Jesus gave these jobs to people.
 
If I am reading my history text, I do not say “my history book taught me about the Crusades”. I might say “I learned about the Crusades reading my history book”. I think you are trying to assing attributes where they do not belong. Scripture was never intended to be the “authority” or the 'teacher". Jesus gave these jobs to people.
:clapping: :clapping:
 
Ye do err here. …

There are so many errors in this claim. .
can’t you just say something - without the insult added?

Why do you have to say repeatedly that someone is in error?? (Incidentally, i have to ask: “…As if you have never been in error??”).

If i can be honest, I feel this kind of thing is downright abusive…

The greatest commandment is to love God and the 2nd greatest is to love your neighbor “as yourself”…

I hope you sometimes say to yourself, “Self, you are in error…” 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top