Today's Mass Readings (concerning Once-saved always-saved?)

[distracted]

Do you believe everything that the Roman Catholic church [officially] teaches ?

question not addressed to me but i will answer…

absolutely, 100%

When you read the Scriptures on your own and learn something it would be true to say that the Scriptures “taught you”. Remember part of teaching is imparting knowledge.

st. Paul says in the Word to “be imitators of me…” and Jesus said about the priests, “Do as they say, not as they do…”

At no point is a person who is truly in Christ ever separated from Him.

when a person sins he is separated… I think the reason you say otherwise is that you have never truly been intimate with Christ. How could you be when you don’t spend time in His Real Presence in the Holy Catholic Church? I didn’t understand this thing about separation either, when i was outside the Church and had not spend time with Jesus There… Things have changed so much since i began to do that… (and daily Mass, etc…).

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4336171]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Ye do err here. The problem is not with the Scriptures but with men who are fallen. Man is without excuse and supressed the knowledge of God.

guanophore
Oh, I agree! However, reading the scripture is not sufficient to save a man’s soul. Unbelievers read it all the time, they study it as literature in college, they use it to make movies, some say it is just a collection of myths. The Bible does not save people.

People can read it and study it all the time as you say. However, the man that believes it will be saved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4
There are so many errors in this claim. We already know that the Scriptures never even mention the Marian doctrine claims and it has already been demonstrated that a celibate unmarried man as a requirement for a bishop in the Roman rite is a direct denial of the Scriptures model for the church. I could also mention the Tresaury of Merit and indulgences that are also as something the apostles never taught.

guanophore
Yes, yes. the broken record of misunderstandings that you keep bringing forth as detraction against Christ’s church. Do you think you are making any progress? Have you been able to pull anyone away from the Catholic faith with these erroneous mantras?

There is no way really to tell how much progress is being made. That’s for the individual who looks at what i have said and draws their conclusions. Secondly, these are not erroneous mantras but facts. I know you like to twist the facts and call it something else but the truth of the matter still gets through your confusing statements…

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Is the Catholic church infallible and inerrant? Can it err?
guanophore
The Head of the Church is Christ. She is ensouled by the HS. The reason the church cannot err is that God cannot err. Men err,and members of the church are fallible.

Lets test this statement. When the the East-West Schism, or the Great Schism occurred 1054 which side was correct? Did the church err in this matter that is still being impacted today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No need to find in the Scriptures. The mere fact that the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant makes them a higher authority than the church.
guanophore
This is what you have been taught to believe.

It is a fact. Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The Scriptures cannot err while the church has since we know it is composed of fallen men.
guanophore
This represents a deficient understanding of the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. It is not a headless body, as the Body without the Head is dead.

I never said it was a headless body. Is it true or not that the church is composed of men who are fallen and can err? Is it not true the highest leader in the church has erred?

The fallen men who belong to the Body are not more powerful than God.

Agreed…

 

[justasking4]

distracted;4337591]question not addressed to me but i will answer…

absolutely, 100%
st. Paul says in the Word to “be imitators of me…” and Jesus said about the priests, “Do as they say, not as they do…”

when a person sins he is separated…

Not so with a believer. A Christian is not separated from Christ when he sins. Rather he grieves the HS and when he repents he is forgiven. He is also cleansed by the blood of Christ.

I think the reason you say otherwise is that you have never truly been intimate with Christ. How could you be when you don’t spend time in His Real Presence in the Holy Catholic Church? I didn’t understand this thing about separation either, when i was outside the Church and had not spend time with Jesus There… Things have changed so much since i began to do that… (and daily Mass, etc…).

Is Christ “Real Presence” only expierenced by catholics during the mass and euchartistic adoration?

 

[justasking4]

distracted;4337569]can’t you just say something - without the insult added?

No insult intended but a statement of fact. This poster at times tries to hammer me on worse statements than this.

Why do you have to say repeatedly that someone is in error?? (Incidentally, i have to ask: “…As if you have never been in error??”).

i’m not without error. I have made maybe 2 errors in my life—:manvspc:

If i can be honest, I feel this kind of thing is downright abusive…

The greatest commandment is to love God and the 2nd greatest is to love your neighbor “as yourself”…

I hope you sometimes say to yourself, “Self, you are in error…”

 

[justasking4]

Callin;4336677]Whoa! One sec.

Acts 8:30-32
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

A good teacher is needed to make a good student. The Bible can’t do it alone.

i agree a good teacher is helpful. However, if a person is to mature in the faith he-she will also teach themselves by reading, studying and listening to good teachers.

That’s also why apostolic succession is so important.

This does not follow.

 

[guanophore]

People can read it and study it all the time as you say. However, the man that believes it will be saved.

I agree.

It is not the reading, of itself, though, that saves. The text has no power to save. It is the HS, working in the heart of the reader that makes them wise unto salvation.

Secondly, these are not erroneous mantras but facts.

No, ja4, a fact is something that can be established by proof. None of the Divne Revelation lends itself to this. On the contrary, the things of God are foolishness to the worlds (factoid) way of thinking.

What you have brought to CAF are your opinions that have been derived from sources separated from the Apostolic Tradition. You have tried to promote that your interpretation of the scripture is the “right” one, and that those who came before you for the last 2000 years, and were appointed by Christ to teach in His name are wrong.

Lets test this statement. When the the East-West Schism, or the Great Schism occurred 1054 which side was correct?

Both.

Did the church err in this matter that is still being impacted today?

No. Men, who are finite in their understanding, make mistakes because they were ignorant and prideful.

The mere fact that the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant makes them a higher authority than the church. It is a fact. Correct?

No. The scriptures do not claim this about themselves, and the Apostles or their successors never taught this. How can you say they are a higher authority, when the Church produced, protected, canonized and promulgated them? They depend on one another.

I never said it was a headless body. Is it true or not that the church is composed of men who are fallen and can err? Is it not true the highest leader in the church has erred?

No. The Church is the Holy Bride of Christ. Those who are saved are members of her, but do not define her. Jesus defines her.

No, Jesus, the Head of the Church, is God, and cannot err. It is He who makes the Church infallible.

Agreed…

If you agree that the fallen men who are members of the Body are not more powerful than God, then it is incumbent upon you to stop laying their errors upon the Head.

 

[guanophore]

Not so with a believer. A Christian is not separated from Christ when he sins.

We are not separated from His love. We are His own, and He still loves us. We are no longer standing in grace.

Rather he grieves the HS

Kinda like Annanias and Sapphira?

and when he repents he is forgiven. He is also cleansed by the blood of Christ.

it is very Catholic of you to day this!

Is Christ “Real Presence” only expierenced by catholics during the mass and euchartistic adoration?

No, it is experienced by all those who have valid sacrament the Holy Orders with which to confect them.

Further, Christ is really and truly present, and may be experienced by everyone present, whether they call themselves Catholic, or not. Do you think those who did not believe in Him could not see HIm on the road or the mountains while He was teaching?

i agree a good teacher is helpful. However, if a person is to mature in the faith he-she will also teach themselves by reading, studying and listening to good teachers.

Yes, most people are capable of learning, and especially a believer can learn by studying the scripture. Scripture does not “teach”, though.

This does not follow.

I am sure you don’t “follow” it.

. This poster at times tries to hammer me on worse statements than this.

It is true that I am very committed to make sure that none of your misstatements, errors, detraction and calumny against the Holy Bride of Christ shall stand on this forum without refutation. It is part of my duty as a forum supporter.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4337728]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Lets test this statement. When the the East-West Schism, or the Great Schism occurred 1054 which side was correct?

guanophore
Both.

Huh??? How can both be correct and claim to be led by the HS when this split has caused division in the church which is something that is against the will of Christ?

 

[Callin]

i agree a good teacher is helpful. However, if a person is to mature in the faith he-she will also teach themselves by reading, studying and listening to good teachers.

This does not follow.

No, a good teacher is necessary. You can read and study scripture all you want, but without a good teacher, you cannot be sure that it is being understood correctly. This is affirmed by the passage I quoted.

It follows because if a chronological line of good teachers is ever broken - if there is one bad teacher in there - then that means the person he taught was taught the wrong things, and everyone else down the line will also be taught the wrong things. Unless they find and fix the error.

 

[justasking4]

Callin;4338294]
Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
i agree a good teacher is helpful. However, if a person is to mature in the faith he-she will also teach themselves by reading, studying and listening to good teachers.

This does not follow.

Callin
No, a good teacher is necessary. You can read and study scripture all you want, but without a good teacher, you cannot be sure that it is being understood correctly. This is affirmed by the passage I quoted.

The way you know if you have understood correctly is to compare what you believe with the Scriptures. If what you believe contradicts or is not taught in Scripture then you have not the correct understanding. This is why its important to compare all teachings with the Scriptures and this is where many Catholic teachings fail the test.

It follows because if a chronological line of good teachers is ever broken - if there is one bad teacher in there - then that means the person he taught was taught the wrong things, and everyone else down the line will also be taught the wrong things. Unless they find and fix the error.

There have been many teachers in the Catholic church who have taught falsely. Some errors have been corrected some have not.

 

[justasking4]

This is why you are against others knowing the truth about various things i have discussed. You know full well there are serious problems you would rather have others think about. Only the truth sets free…

 

[Callin]

The way you know if you have understood correctly is to compare what you believe with the Scriptures. If what you believe contradicts or is not taught in Scripture then you have not the correct understanding.

Can’t some parts of scripture (particularly on topics which are not mentioned often, like maybe angels) be understood different ways, without any of them causing a contradiction or being considered extra-biblical?

In such an occurrence, would multiple understandings of a passage be correct, even if they contradict each other? Or would only one be correct, in which case a teacher (who was taught correctly) would be necessary to prevent us from getting the wrong idea?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Exactly. And in the Prodigal Son story, the son chose to return. The two would not have been reunited it not for the son’s decision. :hug3:

Yes! The son chose to return.

I think we can say that the son’s sins were forgiven even when he was sleeping with the pigs and consorting with gentiles. We know that because the father saw the son coming, from afar, and ran out to meet him. The father, then, must have always been scanning the horizon looking for the return of his son.

But, even though he was still his father’s son, and his sins were forgiven, paid for, this didn’t do him any good as long as he slept with the pigs and stayed away from his father. He had first to return to get the benefit from forgivenesss.

Another thing–when the son returned, even though he was forgiven, the stink of pig dung and the stain of consorting with gentiles were still was on his garments. He couldn’t go to the banquet that way (Nothing unclean will enter there…). And there was nothing the son could do on his own to get that off. Not to worry! His father provided clean garments so he could go to the banquet (purgatory).

It’s evident that the son didn’t do any work, to deserve or earn his inheritance. It depended all on the father. But, the son had to chose to return and accept it.

 

[mackbrislawn]

There have been many teachers in the Catholic church who have taught falsely. Some errors have been corrected some have not.

Of course there have been many teachers in non-Catholic churches, teachers in Protestant and evangelical churches as well, who have taught falsely. And, presumably, these false teachings were based upon scripture.

The thing is, non-Catholic churches have no corporate history. A Protestand church can shed it’s history (by splitting away) like a serpent sheds its skin.

Also, someone in the Catholic church who teaches is not the same as the Church teaching it. Just as any Protestant who teaches, is not teaching infallibly, not all Catholics who teach are teaching infallibly. Only on extremely rare occasions when a decision has to be made in regard a doctrinal issue.

 

[mackbrislawn]

No, a good teacher is necessary. You can read and study scripture all you want, but without a good teacher, you cannot be sure that it is being understood correctly. This is affirmed by the passage I quoted.

It follows because if a chronological line of good teachers is ever broken - if there is one bad teacher in there - then that means the person he taught was taught the wrong things, and everyone else down the line will also be taught the wrong things. Unless they find and fix the error.

Callin is right. Just ask the apostle Peter. 2Peter 3:16.

 

[guanophore]

Huh??? How can both be correct and claim to be led by the HS when this split has caused division in the church which is something that is against the will of Christ?

Both sides have valid disputes, and both sides had men who fell into pride, arrogance, and disobedience. The sins of men always cause separation and division.

I agree, it is against the will of Christ.

The way you know if you have understood correctly is to compare what you believe with the Scriptures. If what you believe contradicts or is not taught in Scripture then you have not the correct understanding. This is why its important to compare all teachings with the Scriptures

I agree. The problem is that we all read the scriptures and understand them through the lens of our perceptions, and these are influenced by our experiences and education (or lack thereof). We cannot help but read them with bias. It is the nature of reading.

and this is where many Catholic teachings fail the test.

Indeed. When Scripture is interpreted by anti - Catholic lenses, it will always appear this way.

There have been many teachers in the Catholic church who have taught falsely. Some errors have been corrected some have not.

I suppose this is true. There have probably been some bad sermons that will never get corrected. However, as problematic as this is, it does not change the infallibility of the Church, which depends on Christ, who is the Head. Those who teach falsely have severed themselves from the Head.

This is why you are against others knowing the truth about various things i have discussed. You know full well there are serious problems you would rather have others think about. Only the truth sets free…

I am sorry, but this statement makes no sense to me. Our discussions are on the forum, and can be searched and read by all. The truth has been openly posted, and your calumnies made evident to all.

I agree that the truth sets free.

 

[Callin]

Another thing–when the son returned, even though he was forgiven, the stink of pig dung and the stain of consorting with gentiles were still was on his garments. He couldn’t go to the banquet that way (Nothing unclean will enter there…). And there was nothing the son could do on his own to get that off. Not to worry! His father provided clean garments so he could go to the banquet (purgatory)

Oh, wow. I really didn’t think much of the clean garments until this post. But that makes sense. It’s awesome just how rich with symbolism parables are.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4340858]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Huh??? How can both be correct and claim to be led by the HS when this split has caused division in the church which is something that is against the will of Christ?

guanophore
Both sides have valid disputes, and both sides had men who fell into pride, arrogance, and disobedience. The sins of men always cause separation and division.

I agree, it is against the will of Christ.

How can this be? I thought you and others have claimed boldly that it is impossible for the church to err in matters of faith and moral? Clearly this example shows such a claim is without merit and substance.

 

[guanophore]

How can this be? I thought you and others have claimed boldly that it is impossible for the church to err in matters of faith and moral? Clearly this example shows such a claim is without merit and substance.

No, ja4. It seems that way to you because you have a deficient view of the Church. You stated you believe that “church” is the body of believers on earth. This is not an Apostolic understanding of the Church. The church cannot err because Jesus is the Head of the Church.

Human beings err, and cause divisions. This is not the will of God.

Individuals making mistakes or sinning is not the same as the Church making errors, or sinning. The Church cannot sin because she is protected by God.

 

[justasking4]

Callin;4338294]No, a good teacher is necessary. You can read and study scripture all you want, but without a good teacher, you cannot be sure that it is being understood correctly. This is affirmed by the passage I quoted.

Came across this passage from I John 2:27 and i think it relates to what your write here:
" As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

If a teacher is necessary then why would John write something like this?

It follows because if a chronological line of good teachers is ever broken - if there is one bad teacher in there - then that means the person he taught was taught the wrong things, and everyone else down the line will also be taught the wrong things. Unless they find and fix the error.