today's Mass readings (no Once Saved Always Saved)

[distracted]

I don’t disagree with that, but I say also that one can receive and not yet have any substantial faith in Christ which would just be plain worthless. Again, works do not merit Salvation, faith in Christ brings God’s saving grace.

God would not command us to do something that brought no merit at all…

the merit good works bring is GRACE… and it is grace tht saves us…

When we die most of us don’t have sufficient grace to get into Heaven, hwich is why there is Purgatory so we can finish, if need be, working out our salvation… (Phil 2;12, etc…)

 

[distracted]

OSAS is a very debatable topic even amongst Catholics. If you truly have faith in Christ, you cannot lose. The Catholic church, Mary and the saints, meritous works are all powerless to save. Peter and John both declared before the Sanhedrine that there is but one name by which we can be saved and that name is Christ Jesus.

the Catholic Church WAS given the power to save a person - True, only if that person cooperates with the Church… The Church cannot save someone without his consent… but neither can God… (well, He could but He doesn’t…because he gave man free will .)…

Mary & the saints can sanctify us… again, if we let them… and the grace they give us helps us into Heaven… by grace are we saved…

the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that Mary or the saints can SAVE us… just impart grace to us…

The Church teaches tht only Jesus can save our souls… (purify us)

 

[distracted]

Then you tell that to those Catholics who beleve it. Doctrine or not, some actually do believe in OSAS.

The way you question my faith is despicable. This in no way is better than the way the Sanhedrin treated our Lord.

some Catholics live as though they believe in OSAS… and that is in great part due to having been exposed, in their everyday life, to Protestants who believe it (or live like they believe it)…

i don’t feel the poster is questioning your faith… and i think you are way off base accusing him/her of being like “the Sanhedrin” in how they treated our Lord…

 

[distracted]

Paul said in Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Do you see anything else there than brings forth God’s grace? If you do, then you either added it or you are dillusional. Keep thinking that you can work out your own Salvation, I’ll stick with the blood of the Lamb.

just being honest but can’t help thinking:

that you appear to be needing to work out SOMETHING!!

because you are rather abrasive in many of your comments… and i don’t feel that is in compliance with such scirptures as St Mt 25:31… etc… (whatever you do [say] to one of Christ’s least brethren, you do [say] to Him)

 

[distracted]

Paul said in Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Do you see anything else there than brings forth God’s grace? If you do, then you either added it or you are dillusional. Keep thinking that you can work out your own Salvation, I’ll stick with the blood of the Lamb.

it doesn’t say anywhere in sciprture that other persons are not spiritually good for us, as it were…

if that were the case, why would there by any written passages by St Paul and others? If what you say is true, we should only have the words of Jesus in the New Testament…

 

[TAB39]

God would not command us to do something that brought no merit at all…

the merit good works bring is GRACE… and it is grace tht saves us…

When we die most of us don’t have sufficient grace to get into Heaven, hwich is why there is Purgatory so we can finish, if need be, working out our salvation… (Phil 2;12, etc…)

So then, you disagree with St. Paul and therefore your statement is counter-biblical. Can you show me where Purgatory is too?

 

[TAB39]

some Catholics live as though they believe in OSAS… and that is in great part due to having been exposed, in their everyday life, to Protestants who believe it (or live like they believe it)…

i don’t feel the poster is questioning your faith… and i think you are way off base accusing him/her of being like “the Sanhedrin” in how they treated our Lord…

You are entitled to your opinion, I guess.

 

[TAB39]

it doesn’t say anywhere in sciprture that other persons are not spiritually good for us, as it were…

if that were the case, why would there by any written passages by St Paul and others? If what you say is true, we should only have the words of Jesus in the New Testament…

That wasn’t my point. You missed it altogether.

 

[TAB39]

just being honest but can’t help thinking:

that you appear to be needing to work out SOMETHING!!

because you are rather abrasive in many of your comments… and i don’t feel that is in compliance with such scirptures as St Mt 25:31… etc… (whatever you do [say] to one of Christ’s least brethren, you do [say] to Him)

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[TAB39]

the Catholic Church WAS given the power to save a person - True, only if that person cooperates with the Church… The Church cannot save someone without his consent… but neither can God… (well, He could but He doesn’t…because he gave man free will .)…

Mary & the saints can sanctify us… again, if we let them… and the grace they give us helps us into Heaven… by grace are we saved…

the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that Mary or the saints can SAVE us… just impart grace to us…

The Church teaches tht only Jesus can save our souls… (purify us)

Can you show me ANY of this in Scripture???

 

[guanophore]

Paul said in Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Do you see anything else there than brings forth God’s grace? If you do, then you either added it or you are dillusional. Keep thinking that you can work out your own Salvation, I’ll stick with the blood of the Lamb.

TAB, it seems that you were never properly catechized in the Catholic faith. The erroneous comments you make bear witness to this. On a positive note, you have come to the right place to get your erroneous perspectives corrected.

Yes, God’s grace flows in many ways. God’s grace also flows through our good works, done in faith. These are the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Peter 4:7-8
8 Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.

You have misunderstood the Catholic Teaching about working out salvation.

Phil 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

When we work out our salvation, we are choosing to cooperate with grace, in faith. When we cooperate with God, our salvation can be worked out in us because God is at work in us. There is no distinction between this, and the blood of the Lamb. They are together. It is the blood of the Lamb that enables us to work it out.

 

[distracted]

So then, you disagree with St. Paul and therefore your statement is counter-biblical. Can you show me where Purgatory is too?

1 cor 3:13
possibly St Mt 18:23… because the verse says he will be tortured “until” the debt is paid… seemingly not indefinitely… (?) but i can’t guarantee the RCC takes a definite stand on this passage pertaining to Purg…

then there is the rich man who prays for his brothers on EArth… that they repent so as not to go there…

there is no love in Hell… no concern for anyone else… so he could have been in Purg…

Plus, if we are not through “wroking out our salvation w/ fear & trembling” before we die, it doesn’t make sense that a mercifuil God would just toss the person into Hell…

there are other scrptures as well…

Maccabees 12:46 which Luther removed from the Bible… says the Jews prayed that the dead be loosed from their sins…

St Mt 12:32 says there will be forgiveness in the age to come… (except for the unforgivable sin, which is to reject Christ / not repent… until death)…

 

[TAB39]

1 cor 3:13
possibly St Mt 18:23… because the verse says he will be tortured “until” the debt is paid… seemingly not indefinitely… (?) but i can’t guarantee the RCC takes a definite stand on this passage pertaining to Purg…

then there is the rich man who prays for his brothers on EArth… that they repent so as not to go there…

there is no love in Hell… no concern for anyone else… so he could have been in Purg…

Plus, if we are not through “wroking out our salvation w/ fear & trembling” before we die, it doesn’t make sense that a mercifuil God would just toss the person into Hell…

there are other scrptures as well…

Maccabees 12:46 which Luther removed from the Bible… says the Jews prayed that the dead be loosed from their sins…

St Mt 12:32 says there will be forgiveness in the age to come… (except for the unforgivable sin, which is to reject Christ / not repent… until death)…

The truth is that it isn’t in Scripture. The church accepts the premise of Purgatory from the Magisterium. Jesus does not speak of such a place in Scripture. Again, we have to look past the Bible and lean on what the church says.

 

[TAB39]

TAB, it seems that you were never properly catechized in the Catholic faith. The erroneous comments you make bear witness to this. On a positive note, you have come to the right place to get your erroneous perspectives corrected.

Yes, God’s grace flows in many ways. God’s grace also flows through our good works, done in faith. These are the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

But again, where is that in Scripture?? Grace is a free gift from God and it cannot be earned. Grace does not come from good works period. No way, no how.

We work out our Salvation by choosing to cooperate with what Jesus asked us to do. It has nothing to do with God’s grace being already poured out to us. We HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We work out our Salvation by doing what Jesus asked us to do. It’s all Biblical.

 

[Philthy]

I don’t think so. God’s grace cannot be merited. We live like Christ because by our faith in him, we are saved by God’s grace and Jesus lives within us. We cannot be inherantly “good” on our own. We are sinful human beings. We need God’s grace, period.

Its nice to see that you do know how to dialogue! Everyone needs God’s grace - I agree. But does everyone get it? No. What separates those who get it from those who do not?
Is it something they do or is it something God does…or is it both!?

 

[Philthy]

Then you tell that to those Catholics who beleve it. Doctrine or not, some actually do believe in OSAS.

The way you question my faith is despicable. This in no way is better than the way the Sanhedrin treated our Lord.

Hi TAB -

I dont think your faith was questioned, merely your Catholicity. This is maybe the third thread that I have seen you post on and you have received similar comments from others on each thread. Perhaps you need to think a little bit more about that reality rather than lashing out. Either there is a coordinated scheme here on CAF or perhaps the theology you present is simply not Catholic and that explains people questioning whether you are truly Catholic. The way to know this is to know what the Catholic faith is. Dont get angry get informed. I’ll give you a heads up: it’s irrelevant what your friends and the fantasy millions believe the Catholic faith is. There are many Americans who call themselves Catholic but who truly do not hold the Catholic faith. One valid way to know what the Catholic faith is is to study the Catechism and documents from reliable Catholic sources. The Library section of CAF is also very good.

 

[Louie1983]

Hi TAB -

. The Library section of CAF is also very good.

Hi Philthy, where is this library section?

 

[guanophore]

The truth is that it isn’t in Scripture. The church accepts the premise of Purgatory from the Magisterium. Jesus does not speak of such a place in Scripture. Again, we have to look past the Bible and lean on what the church says.

Actually, the belief in the place of the righteous dead, and those souls “imprisoned” pre-dated the Catholic Magesterium by at least half a millenia. Jesus accepted the Deuterocanonical books as inspired, and therefore, so did the Apostles. We see praying for the dead in the book of Maccabees long before the Church was established.

What “place” do you think Jesus was speaking about when He said “you will not get out until you have paid the last penny”?

Who are the souls “in prison” and why were they there?

No, the Church does not “look past the Bible”. The CAtholic Church produced the Bible, so everything in it is consistent with the Catholic faith. If it were not, it would not have been included. However, the Church never intended for the Scripture to be the Sole or Final rule of authority in matters of faith. That role belongs to the Teaching of the Apostles.

I was meditating on sanctification today, and found this passage relevant:

Rom 6:21-7:1
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Apostles taught that we enter into salvation at baptism, and that we work out our salvation while we are here on earth. We are made holy, made worthy of the promises, created in Christ for the good works that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. At the end of sanctification is eternal life. This passage reflects the Apostolic Teaching that sanctification is not separated from justification, and glorification. They are all parts of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

We work out our Salvation by choosing to cooperate with what Jesus asked us to do. It has nothing to do with God’s grace being already poured out to us. We HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We work out our Salvation by doing what Jesus asked us to do. It’s all Biblical.

I agree with you that we work our our salvation by cooperating with God’s commandments. However, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with God’s grace being poured out. We cannot choose to cooperate with anything that Jesus has asked us to do without the grace He has poured out.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

It is only by the grace of God, working in us to do His will for His pleasure, that we are able to do anything that pleases HIm.

Eph 2:9-10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It is His Grace that makes us HIs workmanship, and His grace poured into us that enables us to walk in the good works He has prepared.

 

[TAB39]

Actually, the belief in the place of the righteous dead, and those souls “imprisoned” pre-dated the Catholic Magesterium by at least half a millenia.

But this is all very vague and in no manner mirrors what Catholics call Purgatory. This didn’t come to be until the 5th Century and many Fathers of the Early Church didn’t accept this teaching.