today's Mass readings (no Once Saved Always Saved)

[Soutane]

Then you tell that to those Catholics who beleve it. Doctrine or not, some actually do believe in OSAS.

The way you question my faith is despicable. This in no way is better than the way the Sanhedrin treated our Lord.

I debated about replying to someone who I believe to be fudging his religious affiliation.You have identified yourself as a Catholic but your posts betray an anti-Catholic Fundamentalism in extremis.I am not questioning your Faith at all but I am questioning your veracity.Your stated views on “your” Faith are in diametric opposition to that of the Church and its Adherents.You seem to espouse Sola Scriptura,Sola Fide and have denigrated the Magisterium of the Church.Belief in Purgatory is non-negotiable for a Catholic.Ocassionally non-Catholic Christians with issues with the Catholic Church appear here in mufti-identifying themselves as Catholic and then attack the Church incessantly.They are quickly found out and just as quickly dismissed.Regarding your assertion that we have nothing to "work out"vis a vis our Salvation,I’ll just leave you with this little bon mot from SAINT Paul…“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling,”

I will NOT be replying to your posts any longer until I see some evidence of your “claimed” Catholicism.

 

[guanophore]

But this is all very vague and in no manner mirrors what Catholics call Purgatory. This didn’t come to be until the 5th Century and many Fathers of the Early Church didn’t accept this teaching.

It may seem vague to you, TAB, because you are not familiar with the beliefs of the Jews at the time of Jesus. Jesus assumed a lot when He taught. If they had something write, He did not need to talk about it.

You are also missing some books from the Scriptures used by Jesus and the Apostles, taken from your Bible by the Reformers.

Saying that Purgatory was not believed until the 5th Century is like saying that the Trinity was not believed until the word was coined in the second century, or that the Scriptures were not believed to be such until they were canonized in 382. This is just not the case.

Where did you get that from?? Jesus never referrenced anything from those books.

On the contrary, TAB, He referenced a great deal from these books. This topic is beyond the scope of this thread, but there are many such threads here (we get this alot from our Separated Brethren). The greatest testimony to Jesus acceptance of these books is His presence in the Temple of Jerusalem during the feast of Lights.

Yes, praying for the dead, but not Purgatory in the definition of the Catholic church.

You can’t have it both ways, TAB. Either there was a belief in a place for the righteous dead, for whom the faithful on this earth prayed, prior to Christianity, or it was invented in the 5th century. If you are going to cling to the story about the 5th century you have a lot of evidence to dispatch, this being one of them.

Could have been a prison or place of punishment right there in that law and time. He doesn't say what it is.

It could have been. They did have debtor prisons. However, the Apostles understood that it was possible to pray for those who died in a state of grace, but were not completely sanctified. This is what they taught their disciples.

Who are the souls “in prison” and why were they there?

This is also a good question that belongs on another thread. Suffice to say that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Most of us die in something less than a state of perfection.

Can you prove that??

It is certainly easy to demonstrate that the Catholic Church produced the Bible. It is a bit more difficult to “prove” that everything in it is Catholic. Most of these doctrines, take the Trinity for instance, are matters of faith, and do not fall under the realm of scientifc proof.

That’s obvious.

No, TAB, it is not obvious. If it were, we would not have a large, splintered group of Christendom attempting to use the Scriptures in a matter that was not intended.

 

[guanophore]

I debated about replying to someone who I believe to be fudging his religious affiliation.You have identified yourself as a Catholic but your posts betray an anti-Catholic Fundamentalism in extremis.I am not questioning your Faith at all but I am questioning your veracity.

I will NOT be replying to your posts any longer until I see some evidence of your “claimed” Catholicism.

I think he used “catholic” with a small “C” because he imagines that he is part of the universal church, that he thinks does not need to be connected to the the foundation of Apostles and Prophets.

 

[distracted]

That wasn’t my point. You missed it altogether.

not hardly… you’re just saying taht because you know I’m right … .you have no rebuttal…

 

[distracted]

Can you show me ANY of this in Scripture???

well, i could but why should i waste my time when you are not going to be open to it?

also, not all truth can be crammed into a book the size of the Bible…

Jesus never wrote a book (that anyone knows of) and never insturcted his apostles to write one… He told them to go and preach to the whole world and baptise in the name of the Father, Son & HS

 

[distracted]

The truth is that it isn’t in Scripture. The church accepts the premise of Purgatory from the Magisterium. Jesus does not speak of such a place in Scripture. Again, we have to look past the Bible and lean on what the church says.

well, the only scripture Jesus mentioned was the OLD…

so i guess we need to throw out the new, right?

and then there’s St Mt 16:18… Jesus says the very gates of Hell (world, flesh devil) would NOT prevail against His Church…

What Church was he referring to ???

There is only ONE…

otherwise he would have said Churches

 

[distracted]

We work out our Salvation by choosing to cooperate with what Jesus asked us to do. It has nothing to do with God’s grace being already poured out to us. We HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We work out our Salvation by doing what Jesus asked us to do. It’s all Biblical.

you realize htis makes no sense, right?

if one is saved, one does not need to work out his salvation…

 

[distracted]

We work out our Salvation by choosing to cooperate with what Jesus asked us to do. It has nothing to do with God’s grace being already poured out to us. We HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We work out our Salvation by doing what Jesus asked us to do. It’s all Biblical.

“The wages of sin is death…”

it doesn’t say in tht passage tht the wages of sin is death - but only if you have not accepted Christ… there is PERIOD there…

I pray you really do adhere to the Word of God (try to) because, as someone once said, god’s word is bread from Heaven… and we cannot pick and choose from it… without suffering consequences… There is God’s written Word and God’s un-written Word… We need BOTH… and the Church is the only place we can get both…

Purgatory is real becasue the Church Christ established SAYS its real…

***If we cannot trust the first and only Church that He instituted, the one that goes back to the time of His ascension… (no other Christian church does)

who can we trust??? ***

 

[distracted]

i guess the question is (for some):

how do we KNOW the Roman Catholic Church is infallible in its official teachings?

for one thing: If Christ was going to establish a Church (and Mt 16:18 says he did)… it would HAVE to (logically speaking) be infallible…

just because “infallibles” run the Church doesn’t mean God can’t protect the Church (the teachings, not the members) from being infallible…

God either intervenes in such important matters or he doesn’t…

 

[guanophore]

The truth is that it isn’t in Scripture. The church accepts the premise of Purgatory from the Magisterium. Jesus does not speak of such a place in Scripture. Again, we have to look past the Bible and lean on what the church says.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? I think your formulation is amiss, though. Since the Chruch wrote the Bible, there is nothing in it that contradicts the Church teaching. Those writings were not included in the NT. what we do is look through the Apostolic Kerygma at the scriptures. We understand them differently because we have received the teaching of the Apostles.

We work out our Salvation by choosing to cooperate with what Jesus asked us to do.

This is the Catholic Teaching.

It has nothing to do with God’s grace being already poured out to us. We HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We work out our Salvation by doing what Jesus asked us to do. It’s all Biblical.

On the contrary, TAB, it has EVERYTHING to do with God’s grace being poured out. In fact, there is NO WAY we can cooperate with what He askes apart from grace. We are afforded this opportunity BECAUSE we are in a state of grace through Christ’s sacrifice.

I agree, it is all biblical.

 

[Soutane]

I think he used “catholic” with a small “C” because he imagines that he is part of the universal church, that he thinks does not need to be connected to the the foundation of Apostles and Prophets.

Oh right…the small “c” Catholics.The ones who are their own Pope and Magisterium.I guess he/she was trying to make a silly point.Thanks for pointing that out.Now I know whom I am dealing with.

Just as an aside when one is banned from CA can one just sign up again with another nom de guerre?Not that I’m intimating that at all in this instance.No,no,not at all…

 

[guanophore]

Just as an aside when one is banned from CA can one just sign up again with another nom de guerre?Not that I’m intimating that at all in this instance.No,no,not at all…

Yes, one can do this, but this is also a violation, and the mods are able to see the IP address, and if someone violates using the same computer, it will be obvious.

Back to the OP, I was reflecting on this passage from Peter:

2 Peter 1:3-12
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5** For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith **with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I am impressed with how this passage reflects the Catholic Teaching of salvation being completed in some aspects, in process in some, and yet to be completed in others.

Peter writes to the “saved”, noting that everything we need to obtain eternal life has already been granted. He goes on to point out that part of that ‘salvation’ is to be delivered from the present evils of sin. I often hear from Protestants on CAF that this is not possible, but the Apostle clearly indicates otherwise.

He uses the phrase “every effort to supplement your faith”. Why would he do this, if all we needed was “faith alone”?

“For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith…”

The reason is BECAUSE we have been given everything necessary. The purpose of having been given these graces is so that we can supplement our faith.

He then notes that it is possible for people to “forget they have been cleansed from their old sins”, and that it is possible to “fall” from the faith. It seems so clear to me that the Apostles believed it is part and parcel of salvation to participate in this process of sanctification, and that it included “making every effort”.

He sums up by saying that we must “confirm your call and election”. Why? If we are appointed to be in the elect, will we still be saved if we fail to confirm it? It does not seem the Apsotle believed so.

However, IF we confirm it, “there will be provided”. This is conditional language, so the outcome only applies to those who meet the conditions.

Thanks for reading my reflections.

 

[TAB39]

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? I think your formulation is amiss, though. Since the Chruch wrote the Bible, there is nothing in it that contradicts the Church teaching. Those writings were not included in the NT. what we do is look through the Apostolic Kerygma at the scriptures. We understand them differently because we have received the teaching of the Apostles.

I don’t agree at all, especially when you make a statement such as the Church wrote the Bible meaning the Roman Catholic church I would most assuredly assume. This is very problematic even for a Catholic to accept because it is simply not true.

 

[TAB39]

“The wages of sin is death…”

it doesn’t say in tht passage tht the wages of sin is death - but only if you have not accepted Christ… there is PERIOD there…

I pray you really do adhere to the Word of God (try to) because, as someone once said, god’s word is bread from Heaven… and we cannot pick and choose from it… without suffering consequences… There is God’s written Word and God’s un-written Word… We need BOTH… and the Church is the only place we can get both…

Purgatory is real becasue the Church Christ established SAYS its real…

Read everything you just said prior to this one sentence. Now read this very last sentence by itself. It’s like trying to mix oil and water.

I’d try trusting in the one and only Savior of the world if I were you.

 

[TAB39]

you realize htis makes no sense, right?

if one is saved, one does not need to work out his salvation…

That’s not what I said and I really think that you know that. Let’s stop with the little word games here. I think you are smarter than that.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Philthy, where is this library section?

sorry for the delay…

Go to:
catholic.com//

and look for the LIBRARY section near the top of the page. Its a drop down menu. The faith tracts are excellent for getting a direct Catholic answer to some commonly debated issues.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t agree at all, especially when you make a statement such as the Church wrote the Bible meaning the Roman Catholic church I would most assuredly assume. This is very problematic even for a Catholic to accept because it is simply not true.

If you were to “most assuredly assume” such a thing, you would be in error. The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. HOwever, all those who penned the NT were Catholic, and those who preserved and canonized the Scripture were Catholic.

I’d try trusting in the one and only Savior of the world if I were you.

There is no separation between Christ, and His Holy Bride. They are One, just as when a man joins with a woman in marriage.

 

[TAB39]

If you were to “most assuredly assume” such a thing, you would be in error. The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

So then Eastern Orthodox Christians are Catholic and so are Anglicans and Lutherans then too right?

I agree with that

 

[guanophore]

So then Eastern Orthodox Christians are Catholic and so are Anglicans and Lutherans then too right?

No. I said that those who penned the Scripture were Catholic. Here is your response:

I don’t agree at all, especially when you make a statement such as the Church wrote the Bible meaning the Roman Catholic church I would most assuredly assume. This is very problematic even for a Catholic to accept because it is simply not true.

I told you your assumption is in error, because I am not a Roman Catholic.

They were? Seriously? I just don’t see that spoken of anywhere in the Scriptures. Paul never called himself a Catholic. Even Peter never did either. I have always found it to be intriguing when someone said this. I think that it is very arrogant yes, but not accurate.

Yes, they were all Catholic. And Scripture was never intended to be the full repository for the faith. There are many things not included in it. One example is the table contents. There is no list in Scripture of which books belong in Scripture. This decision was made by the Catholic Church.

And by the way, it was Luke, the companion of Paul, who first wrote that the Church is Catholic.

That’s not what I said and I really think that you know that. Let’s stop with the little word games here. I think you are smarter than that.

What you said could be taken that way. She is smarter than that, but clearly you are not. You have come onto a Catholic Board, masquerading as a Catholic, and cannot even play the role! Give it up.

 

[TAB39]

No. I said that those who penned the Scripture were Catholic. Here is your response:

I told you your assumption is in error, because I am not a Roman Catholic.

So?