- Status
O
Oreoracle
Guest
It seems that you don’t understand all that’s implied when he says something is illusory.
As One said, the past and future being mere concepts (illusions) does not reduce their significance. It does, however, bring their relevance into question when one realizes this (hence the point). Your past mistakes are only as important as their relevance to the present. If something in the past is not manifesting itself in the present, there is no need to assume that past-something is haunting you, as most people do. Similarly, it is equally absurd to fear a future world that has not taken form in any other place but your mind.
This is simple advice that most people never seem to hear or have never considered practicing. Simple, yes, but helpful nonetheless. Though this might not be useful advice to you, there are many who need these wake-up calls.
O
One
Guest
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, Oreoracle. I like the way you’ve framed that.
If you already have discerned that everything is an illusion, if you knew that before Tolle, then there is likely no use for you to read those books, or perhaps you’re done with books altogether. (I used to read a lot more than I do today.) When you use one thorn to remove another thorn from your foot, you can then throw both thorns away, right?
We should be careful: While your opinion is appreciated, and we can throw that in with the other opinions, it remains that if you don’t find the books useful for you, we should not then infer that they are useless for others.
But, that is not the point to this inquiry. The point I’m trying to discover is whether or not Tolle’s work is incompatible with the Catholic belief system, and so far, I have yet to see anyone offer conclusive arguments that the work is incompatible. I’ve seen some objections, but they seem mostly baseless to me at this time.
Sorry, I only now looked up to the right to see that you identify with being a “theosopher.”
If you already have discerned that everything is an illusion, if you knew that before Tolle, then there is likely no use for you to read those books, or perhaps you’re done with books altogether. (I used to read a lot more than I do today.) When you use one thorn to remove another thorn from your foot, you can then throw both thorns away, right?
We should be careful: While your opinion is appreciated, and we can throw that in with the other opinions, it remains that if you don’t find the books useful for you, we should not then infer that they are useless for others.
But, that is not the point to this inquiry. The point I’m trying to discover is whether or not Tolle’s work is incompatible with the Catholic belief system, and so far, I have yet to see anyone offer conclusive arguments that the work is incompatible. I’ve seen some objections, but they seem mostly baseless to me at this time.
P
PadraigPearce
Guest
In a previous post I stated that Tolle’s teaching point towards pantheism, and you said that was a misinterpretation of his teachings. Catholics believe that God is a transcendent being, distinct from his creation. We also believe Jesus Christ was god, and not simply a prophet or a wise teacher. What I’m getting at is that Tolle isn’t just presenting something that would make a good addition to the faith Catholics already have, or a new way of viewing it. He’s presenting a totally different view of God and Jesus from Catholic teaching. It would be the same if I were talking about Hinduism, or Buddhism, or almost any other religion. Some aspects of Hinduism might be beneficial for Catholics to know, but on the whole we couldn’t accept their view of God, or we wouldn’t be Catholics anymore. So what does Tolle actually teach about God and Jesus? Is Jesus God or just one in a long line of wise teachers?
E
edwest2
Guest
What did Stalin propose with his idea of a New Man? What did Pol Pot do when he declared it to be “Year Zero”?
No man is perfect, not one. That is the first thing to be realized. The next thing to be realized is that “opinion culture” is not necessarily knowledge. It doesn’t matter if global access to information is here if the majority of the population is functionally illiterate.
I recommend reading the Bible.
Peace,
Ed
No man is perfect, not one. That is the first thing to be realized. The next thing to be realized is that “opinion culture” is not necessarily knowledge. It doesn’t matter if global access to information is here if the majority of the population is functionally illiterate.
I recommend reading the Bible.
Peace,
Ed
D
Detales
Guest
“Is Jesus God or just one in a long line of wise teachers?” Yes.
P
PadraigPearce
Guest
Well he couldn’t have been very wise then, if his teachings were liable to such extreme misinterpretation. If he was just a guru and not God he failed spectacularly in his mission.
O
One
Guest
~
As I’ve mentioned to a couple of friends of mine, since this will be my 100th post I anticipate that it will also be my last on CAF. I never intended to stick around even this long, but it has been an interesting ride, so my thanks to all.
~
I’d like to wrap up this thread with a couple of thoughts based on the last several posts. Hope you don’t mind if I multi-quote.
"edwest2:
“Truth exists, and this ain’t it.” Otherwise stated, Truth exists, and beyond that, we can say nothing at all.
Believe whatever you’d like to believe. It has nothing more to do with absolute Truth than whatever I, or Tolle, or anyone else might be saying. The moment we open our mouths or take to the keyboard, we are already cleaving that which is True into a thousand little pieces of un-Truth.
Of course, I understand completely if you don’t see it that way. Peace be with you, brother.
In the end, I think it has far less to do with the man and the message, and much more to say about those who heard it. Have we, as humans, truly moved past the fear that caused Jesus to be murdered in the first place? I think not.
The following is the post I took a good deal of time considering:
But that’s a good thing! You are exactly where you need to be at this time.
I could stick around and explain some new lenses that take the time-tested Catholic belief structures, expanding on them, transcending and including those traditional beliefs, bringing them into a slightly different light while still retaining the ideas that a Catholic would currently hold dear. Problem is, it would take far more than 6,000 characters to do so. These lenses might include the “Three Faces of God”, or the I-We-It natural perspectives of God, which can be easily mapped to the Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as they arise in the consciousness of humans; or how that same Trinity can be seen in the timeless wisdom of gross, subtle, and causal bodies – with the end result that all perspectives radically agree with and complement one another, rather than one negating the other.
But, sadly, these alternative lenses do not seem to be acceptable to most devout Catholics, who seemed irrevocably chained to stories of myth and tradition where the slightest digression from the drumbeat is seen as heresy or blasphemy.
I’d like to reiterate that this is not a problem, nor is my post an attack. We all need to be exactly where we are today. If circumstances change, then hopefully so will we, each according to their own needs.
In the meantime, I hope that all people find a way to be gentle with each other. Humanity can sure use it these days.
And… peace out.
Rob
As I’ve mentioned to a couple of friends of mine, since this will be my 100th post I anticipate that it will also be my last on CAF. I never intended to stick around even this long, but it has been an interesting ride, so my thanks to all.
~
I’d like to wrap up this thread with a couple of thoughts based on the last several posts. Hope you don’t mind if I multi-quote.
This is a bit of a strawman argument, since Stalin and Pol Pot have absolutely nothing to do with Eckhart Tolle. At the very least, the first two were known as excessively violent people who had no respect for human life, while the latter is a very peaceful and content man who wishes to share his insights with others.
"edwest2:
No argument there!
Yes, not necessarily indeed, but neither is “belief.” In the search for Truth, we find that no belief is true. No… belief… is… true.
“Truth exists, and this ain’t it.” Otherwise stated, Truth exists, and beyond that, we can say nothing at all.
Believe whatever you’d like to believe. It has nothing more to do with absolute Truth than whatever I, or Tolle, or anyone else might be saying. The moment we open our mouths or take to the keyboard, we are already cleaving that which is True into a thousand little pieces of un-Truth.
Of course, I understand completely if you don’t see it that way. Peace be with you, brother.
From my study of the matter, Jesus was a highly realized being. He knew from direct experience the Truth beyond words. (Yes, you will call him the Son of God. I understand.) The fact that he failed spectacularly in getting his point across is recapitulated in our discussions here. These are not easy concepts to grasp for oneself, much less communicate with others who sit across a wide gulf of true understanding.
In the end, I think it has far less to do with the man and the message, and much more to say about those who heard it. Have we, as humans, truly moved past the fear that caused Jesus to be murdered in the first place? I think not.
The following is the post I took a good deal of time considering:
I completely understand that if this is your belief, then there’s absolutely nothing I can say to change your mind, and there is nothing that I should say to try to change it. To put it simply, you are so thoroughly identified with your beliefs that there is simply no room I can find to introduce new perspectives. You won’t allow for it, and attempting to reconcile through reason won’t make a bit of difference… it hasn’t yet, at least.
But that’s a good thing! You are exactly where you need to be at this time.
Not that I’m trying to convince you, or anything, but I’d like to add that there’s another option to be considered: Tolle is giving a perspective that is respectful towards, and inclusive of, your belief system. The only problem is that some people can’t see that, and I know and respect the reasons why that is so.
I could stick around and explain some new lenses that take the time-tested Catholic belief structures, expanding on them, transcending and including those traditional beliefs, bringing them into a slightly different light while still retaining the ideas that a Catholic would currently hold dear. Problem is, it would take far more than 6,000 characters to do so. These lenses might include the “Three Faces of God”, or the I-We-It natural perspectives of God, which can be easily mapped to the Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as they arise in the consciousness of humans; or how that same Trinity can be seen in the timeless wisdom of gross, subtle, and causal bodies – with the end result that all perspectives radically agree with and complement one another, rather than one negating the other.
But, sadly, these alternative lenses do not seem to be acceptable to most devout Catholics, who seemed irrevocably chained to stories of myth and tradition where the slightest digression from the drumbeat is seen as heresy or blasphemy.
I’d like to reiterate that this is not a problem, nor is my post an attack. We all need to be exactly where we are today. If circumstances change, then hopefully so will we, each according to their own needs.
In the meantime, I hope that all people find a way to be gentle with each other. Humanity can sure use it these days.
And… peace out.
Rob
P
PadraigPearce
Guest
Well, I’m glad you stuck around this long. I learned a bit about Tolle I didn’t know. If you’re still reading, all I can suggest is that you don’t base your knowledge of the Church on what you learned on this forum. There are smart people here, but ultimately we are all trying to grasp the infinite, and we will never do that entirely with our rational minds. One of our greatest theologians, St. Thomas Aquinas, spent his whole life studying God through rational means. (Just as a neat side note, the chair in theology St. Thomas held at the University of Paris was later held by another Dominican theologian, Meister Eckhart, Tolle’s namesake) Near the end of his life Aquinas had a mystical experience that caused him to say that all his theology, brilliant as it is, was “like straw, compared with what I have seen”. Compared with The vision of God be had recieved, his theology, although not wrong, didn’t express even a fraction of the reality of God he had experienced. In fact, he wanted to burn all his work because he thought it was so rudimentary. If you really want to know what the Church is all about, you have to read the writings of saints. Some of them were brilliant, much smarter than you or I. Some of them might not have been able to understand a theological concept it it fell out of the sky and landed on their head. But the saints were and are connected to a supernatural reality much greater than visible world. So before you dismiss Catholics as simpletons, remember, we don’t claim to have all the answers, not even a fraction of them. Go read St. Francis of Assisi or St. Augustine. I guarantee the time you spend won’t be wasted.
O
One
Guest
Thanks, Padraig…
Just to let you know, I have read the works of many saints, including St. Thomas Aquinas, as well as Meister Eckhart (and quite a few other people, as well.)
And, I never dismissed Catholics as ‘simpletons.’ I truly hope that’s not the impression I gave around here, and if it is, I’m sorry that there was a misunderstanding.
Just to let you know, I have read the works of many saints, including St. Thomas Aquinas, as well as Meister Eckhart (and quite a few other people, as well.)
And, I never dismissed Catholics as ‘simpletons.’ I truly hope that’s not the impression I gave around here, and if it is, I’m sorry that there was a misunderstanding.
P
PadraigPearce
Guest
Just out of curiousity, what do you think of Thomas Merton, from a Tollean perpective? I ask because e’s someone who is controversial in Catholic and, for lack of a better term, “new age” circles. He’s to new agey for some Catholics, and too Catholic for some new agers.
O
One
Guest
~
If we are to quote the people that we tend to admire, let’s be sure to get it right.
Although there are some translations that suggest St. Thomas Aquinas voiced his experience as you have quoted – possibly phrased that way so that it wouldn’t offend the pious – the majority of sources cite Aquinas as actually saying the following:
I can no longer write, for God has given me such glorious knowledge that all contained in my works are as straw - barely fit to absorb the holy wonders that fall in a stable." (Shortly after that statement, he died.)
What should we infer from that proper quote? Really think about it for a minute (rather, many hours) to understand the implications, rather than doing as most people might do, which is just thinking that it’s some cool, pithy quote.
Considering all that St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, and despite the depth of intelligence, understanding and piety that he brought to his writing process, compared to his divine revelation of actual and authentic TRUTH he considered that his words and ideas were not even worthy of catching and absorbing the droppings of a horse, by his own admission.
But we should look deeper into what this really means, and what it means for each of us.
“Be still and know.” “Kill the Buddha.” “I am That I Am.” “…barely fit to absorb….” All such expressions tell us not to listen to others, no matter who they are, but to find out the Truth for oneself. That’s the only way that Truth can be realized. It can happen no other way. No belief is true. No thought is truth. Nothing that I say, nothing that Aquinas said, nothing that Jesus said, nothing that you say, nothing that anyone can say, is True.
So, to be honest, I don’t give much of a fat rat’s butt about discussing the relative viewpoints of Thomas Merton, or St. Thomas Aquinas, or Eckhart Tolle, or Meister Eckhart, or Jesus, or Shakyamuni Buddha, or the prophet Mohammed, or Shankara, or the hundreds upon hundreds of other saints, sages, whackos, pundits, pandits, fundamentalists, charlatans, gurus, or supposedly enlightened beings. None has anything to do with salvation, enlightenment, or Truth realization if we don’t look for ourselves. All are mere fingers pointing at the moon, and yet we spend our lives worshiping the finger, and this seems to be the case for the words of Jesus (especially) as it is for for anyone else’s words. Was that not what Aquinas was pointing toward, and yet we continue to talk about his finger! Ridiculous.
The Truth is obvious for those who look. But, what keeps most people from seeing the obvious? Answer: Cowshit. All beliefs are cowshit, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Judeo-Christian cowshit, or Buddhist cowshit, or Hindu cowshit, or New Age cowshit, and they all result in the same thing: Spiritual Confusion.
All of these teachers, teachings and beliefs serve to support one cause: To support and console our egos, lulling us into complacency as we avoid the one and only thing that we can truly own, realize, and come to terms with – our own death.
The tacit awareness of our impermanence causes fear for almost everyone, all except those who have found all these ridiculous beliefs and notions so false and contrived that they could no longer stand not to know the Truth. And so they set out for themselves, keeping their own death in the right hand while hacking at the tangle of Untruth for themselves with the left hand. Liberation is at hand for these people, not in some fairy tale about a beatific life after death, but here and now. This is the “heaven on Earth” that is promised, otherwise it would have been called “Pie in the Sky.”
Serious people can’t stand the lie of pretending that the black sea isn’t shoreless, or that the darkness isn’t absolute, or that death isn’t just a breath away. The urge to attach to beliefs is the survival instinct; the urge not to drown, not to sink into the blackness.
We’re all treading water in that vast, black, endless sea. We gather together into groups to convince ourself that our situation is other than what it is. You sense yourself spinning off into oblivion, and we’re clawing desperately to grab ahold of something. If someone else on some other raft comes close to our raft, we beat them back with the oars of righteousness, all while yelling that our belief will somehow save us from the one and only thing that surely awaits us all.
Virtually all beings are avoiding looking at the one thing that is True.
Tread water, brothers and sisters. Gather together into groups. It has nothing much to do with Truth. (Actually, it does, at the highest levels, but the vast majority of people are getting it wrong.)
~
If we are to quote the people that we tend to admire, let’s be sure to get it right.
Although there are some translations that suggest St. Thomas Aquinas voiced his experience as you have quoted – possibly phrased that way so that it wouldn’t offend the pious – the majority of sources cite Aquinas as actually saying the following:
I can no longer write, for God has given me such glorious knowledge that all contained in my works are as straw - barely fit to absorb the holy wonders that fall in a stable." (Shortly after that statement, he died.)
What should we infer from that proper quote? Really think about it for a minute (rather, many hours) to understand the implications, rather than doing as most people might do, which is just thinking that it’s some cool, pithy quote.
Considering all that St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, and despite the depth of intelligence, understanding and piety that he brought to his writing process, compared to his divine revelation of actual and authentic TRUTH he considered that his words and ideas were not even worthy of catching and absorbing the droppings of a horse, by his own admission.
But we should look deeper into what this really means, and what it means for each of us.
“Be still and know.” “Kill the Buddha.” “I am That I Am.” “…barely fit to absorb….” All such expressions tell us not to listen to others, no matter who they are, but to find out the Truth for oneself. That’s the only way that Truth can be realized. It can happen no other way. No belief is true. No thought is truth. Nothing that I say, nothing that Aquinas said, nothing that Jesus said, nothing that you say, nothing that anyone can say, is True.
So, to be honest, I don’t give much of a fat rat’s butt about discussing the relative viewpoints of Thomas Merton, or St. Thomas Aquinas, or Eckhart Tolle, or Meister Eckhart, or Jesus, or Shakyamuni Buddha, or the prophet Mohammed, or Shankara, or the hundreds upon hundreds of other saints, sages, whackos, pundits, pandits, fundamentalists, charlatans, gurus, or supposedly enlightened beings. None has anything to do with salvation, enlightenment, or Truth realization if we don’t look for ourselves. All are mere fingers pointing at the moon, and yet we spend our lives worshiping the finger, and this seems to be the case for the words of Jesus (especially) as it is for for anyone else’s words. Was that not what Aquinas was pointing toward, and yet we continue to talk about his finger! Ridiculous.
The Truth is obvious for those who look. But, what keeps most people from seeing the obvious? Answer: Cowshit. All beliefs are cowshit, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Judeo-Christian cowshit, or Buddhist cowshit, or Hindu cowshit, or New Age cowshit, and they all result in the same thing: Spiritual Confusion.
All of these teachers, teachings and beliefs serve to support one cause: To support and console our egos, lulling us into complacency as we avoid the one and only thing that we can truly own, realize, and come to terms with – our own death.
The tacit awareness of our impermanence causes fear for almost everyone, all except those who have found all these ridiculous beliefs and notions so false and contrived that they could no longer stand not to know the Truth. And so they set out for themselves, keeping their own death in the right hand while hacking at the tangle of Untruth for themselves with the left hand. Liberation is at hand for these people, not in some fairy tale about a beatific life after death, but here and now. This is the “heaven on Earth” that is promised, otherwise it would have been called “Pie in the Sky.”
Serious people can’t stand the lie of pretending that the black sea isn’t shoreless, or that the darkness isn’t absolute, or that death isn’t just a breath away. The urge to attach to beliefs is the survival instinct; the urge not to drown, not to sink into the blackness.
We’re all treading water in that vast, black, endless sea. We gather together into groups to convince ourself that our situation is other than what it is. You sense yourself spinning off into oblivion, and we’re clawing desperately to grab ahold of something. If someone else on some other raft comes close to our raft, we beat them back with the oars of righteousness, all while yelling that our belief will somehow save us from the one and only thing that surely awaits us all.
Virtually all beings are avoiding looking at the one thing that is True.
Tread water, brothers and sisters. Gather together into groups. It has nothing much to do with Truth. (Actually, it does, at the highest levels, but the vast majority of people are getting it wrong.)
~
D
Detales
Guest
I am in complete agreement with One. Here is a reply along similar lines I just posted to Prodigal Son, a clearly intelligent person, on another thread:
PS"I will agree that human language is constantly an obstacle in communicating revelation. Surely, Jesus was trying to get us beyond language, to a new kind of intuition about the world. I would say that the world, as it truly is, cannot be explained with our language. We are always using a blunt instrument to sharpen things, as it were – but the only other resource that we have for meaning (experience) is incommunicable except through language."
“Revelation” cannot be communicated. It can only be pointed to. There may be an element of “induction,” experienced as a form of charisma around an enlightend human, or Sage. Intellectual understanding may be taught. as is said, but the rest comes on its own. And yes, there is a realm of expereince that may be called intuitive. There is no doubt that if there was as historical Jesus, He taught this. The world, as IS, can only be aprehended by going beyond the mind and its concepts, especially the most common concept of duality, and the concepts of God, and in the case of christianists, beyond the thoughts about Jesus that usually constitute faith. Real Knowledge comes from Self inquiry. If it is true that we are “created in the image and likeness of God,” then all the incomunicable necessitites of Understanding beyond mental limitationsare within, as Self. That SELF is not to be confused, as often and adamantly stated, with our own egoic sense of existance and personality.
“This intuition about the world is awakened by Scripture, becoming a form of insight – I think you would agree with that. But this does not invalidate the nuggets of absolutely clear meaning that emanate from the Scriptures. When Jesus says, “I am”, in John’s gospel, it is a distinction: He is God, they are not. “This is my body, given to you” is a subject/object statement of perfect clarity, and has discursive truth value.”
That Body refered to the Body of Understanding which is not Discursive Itself, but which may be referenced discusively in language.
One of the things, if interpreted from a Unitary standpoint, that can point to insight, may be Scripture, especially if one includes non-christianist texts that aid in self inquiry. Each person who claims absolute clarity of any nugget claims that clarity usually because they have an interpretation of it and it is theirs. Thus we have even two different religions founded on two haves of the same sentence from the Bible. Each founder was of course convinced of the absolute clarity of their personal underestanding. But their undersatnding was exoteric and empirical, and thus suceptible to the at-oddsment of intellectual interpretations.
When it is attributed to Jesus in the Gosels that He says “I AM,” we know from our understanding of the levels of teaching languge in use at that time and in that region, that He was refering to His at-Onement with SELF. His teaching centered around that idea, that possibility, that course of inquiry, for each one who heard Him who had “ears to hear.” For those who had not, He taught in parables. To His own, He taught differently, which is why my signature has the reference to Mark. So, He Knew in Essence WHAT He IS. The others did not yet know that, their attention yet being focused on phenomena. In the politicization of Jesus’ Teaching, this is where the split occured much more or less than about three hundred years later. If you look at the history of christainism, this becomes abundantly clear, with the “Jesus” story being over 5000 years old in its complete details, with all its variations. This is true of much of Biblecal content, from the flood to Moses.
PS"In other words, the living God can speak in our language, though we cannot speak in His." The living God IS and has no language save what we ascribe in our attempts to point within the quale of subject/object discursivity.
PS"This is where I think you’re playing games with language. What is “Christ Consciousness”? How does a State precipitate? You have quite a subtle mind, Detales, but I’m puzzled as to why some of your statements are so unclear."
Although it is fun and instructive to play with language, this is not a game in the ordinary sense. “Christ” is a Title, not a person. If there was an histroical Jesus, He made Himself the Son of God by hard work and study. The Christ is that State of Conscious Awareness that knows its at-Onement with the Father, or the SELF. But that is a statement of great accuracy, not the Truth. This is why, I would think, that many take many of my statements to be “unclear.” I am not using subject/object awareness as a referent for my statements. I am using my experience of something rather before, or fundamental to that.
PS"Also, I’m puzzled as to why you would list a man who insisted he was “the way” as simply one of many saints and sages. Surely he was either lying or quite a bit more than a sage." There is nothing simple about it, whiloe it is utterly simple. It is said that less than one in a million attain this State of Conscious Awareness. There are only slightly fewer more who can intellectually apprehend the ideas commensurate with this State. (I was offering you a compliment perhaps beyond your ability to appreciate by directly recommending that book to you.) It can happen spontaneouly, or through hard work. In any case it is our Birthright. But fortunately, there is far more than the Bible as evidence of that State. I have recommended many of them on these fora. They all have to do with the explicaton and ancient practice of Self inquiry. As I have often repeated, “Know thySelf” is not a trivial dictum. “Gnothi Seauton!”
PS"I will agree that human language is constantly an obstacle in communicating revelation. Surely, Jesus was trying to get us beyond language, to a new kind of intuition about the world. I would say that the world, as it truly is, cannot be explained with our language. We are always using a blunt instrument to sharpen things, as it were – but the only other resource that we have for meaning (experience) is incommunicable except through language."
“Revelation” cannot be communicated. It can only be pointed to. There may be an element of “induction,” experienced as a form of charisma around an enlightend human, or Sage. Intellectual understanding may be taught. as is said, but the rest comes on its own. And yes, there is a realm of expereince that may be called intuitive. There is no doubt that if there was as historical Jesus, He taught this. The world, as IS, can only be aprehended by going beyond the mind and its concepts, especially the most common concept of duality, and the concepts of God, and in the case of christianists, beyond the thoughts about Jesus that usually constitute faith. Real Knowledge comes from Self inquiry. If it is true that we are “created in the image and likeness of God,” then all the incomunicable necessitites of Understanding beyond mental limitationsare within, as Self. That SELF is not to be confused, as often and adamantly stated, with our own egoic sense of existance and personality.
“This intuition about the world is awakened by Scripture, becoming a form of insight – I think you would agree with that. But this does not invalidate the nuggets of absolutely clear meaning that emanate from the Scriptures. When Jesus says, “I am”, in John’s gospel, it is a distinction: He is God, they are not. “This is my body, given to you” is a subject/object statement of perfect clarity, and has discursive truth value.”
That Body refered to the Body of Understanding which is not Discursive Itself, but which may be referenced discusively in language.
One of the things, if interpreted from a Unitary standpoint, that can point to insight, may be Scripture, especially if one includes non-christianist texts that aid in self inquiry. Each person who claims absolute clarity of any nugget claims that clarity usually because they have an interpretation of it and it is theirs. Thus we have even two different religions founded on two haves of the same sentence from the Bible. Each founder was of course convinced of the absolute clarity of their personal underestanding. But their undersatnding was exoteric and empirical, and thus suceptible to the at-oddsment of intellectual interpretations.
When it is attributed to Jesus in the Gosels that He says “I AM,” we know from our understanding of the levels of teaching languge in use at that time and in that region, that He was refering to His at-Onement with SELF. His teaching centered around that idea, that possibility, that course of inquiry, for each one who heard Him who had “ears to hear.” For those who had not, He taught in parables. To His own, He taught differently, which is why my signature has the reference to Mark. So, He Knew in Essence WHAT He IS. The others did not yet know that, their attention yet being focused on phenomena. In the politicization of Jesus’ Teaching, this is where the split occured much more or less than about three hundred years later. If you look at the history of christainism, this becomes abundantly clear, with the “Jesus” story being over 5000 years old in its complete details, with all its variations. This is true of much of Biblecal content, from the flood to Moses.
PS"In other words, the living God can speak in our language, though we cannot speak in His." The living God IS and has no language save what we ascribe in our attempts to point within the quale of subject/object discursivity.
]]
PS"This is where I think you’re playing games with language. What is “Christ Consciousness”? How does a State precipitate? You have quite a subtle mind, Detales, but I’m puzzled as to why some of your statements are so unclear."
Although it is fun and instructive to play with language, this is not a game in the ordinary sense. “Christ” is a Title, not a person. If there was an histroical Jesus, He made Himself the Son of God by hard work and study. The Christ is that State of Conscious Awareness that knows its at-Onement with the Father, or the SELF. But that is a statement of great accuracy, not the Truth. This is why, I would think, that many take many of my statements to be “unclear.” I am not using subject/object awareness as a referent for my statements. I am using my experience of something rather before, or fundamental to that.
PS"Also, I’m puzzled as to why you would list a man who insisted he was “the way” as simply one of many saints and sages. Surely he was either lying or quite a bit more than a sage." There is nothing simple about it, whiloe it is utterly simple. It is said that less than one in a million attain this State of Conscious Awareness. There are only slightly fewer more who can intellectually apprehend the ideas commensurate with this State. (I was offering you a compliment perhaps beyond your ability to appreciate by directly recommending that book to you.) It can happen spontaneouly, or through hard work. In any case it is our Birthright. But fortunately, there is far more than the Bible as evidence of that State. I have recommended many of them on these fora. They all have to do with the explicaton and ancient practice of Self inquiry. As I have often repeated, “Know thySelf” is not a trivial dictum. “Gnothi Seauton!”
J
Jethro_Tull
Guest
I really enjoyed reading through this thread. We resonate on a very similar wavelength, One. Everything Oneness.
Tolle is one of my favorite authors. I remember the first time I heard him; my Buddhism teacher lent me a disc set of his lecture The Power of Now. It was/is mind-blowing. I have never heard anyone describe the ego as well as Tolle, and it was very interesting from a psychology standpoint.
I especially liked your post about the individual. We have to think for ourselves and check things for ourselves. We have to save ourselves with the truth and the life (Jesus). Salvation does not come simply by belief in belief.
I will continue to do everything I can to help build a heaven on earth. We have always subconsciously known that we can reach heaven, but now we are starting to realize that there is no “pie in the sky” after we physically die. Abundant, eternal life is here now, always, and we can either receive it and reflect it, or block it out with the mind. Nature has given us the foundation; this is our window of opportunity to build a world that works in harmony with nature, as to relieve the unnecessary suffering on this earth instead of showing indifference. I think you might appreciate my blog linked in my signature. Also, look out for some threads I will be making.
It is nice to meet you, brother. Be well.
Tolle is one of my favorite authors. I remember the first time I heard him; my Buddhism teacher lent me a disc set of his lecture The Power of Now. It was/is mind-blowing. I have never heard anyone describe the ego as well as Tolle, and it was very interesting from a psychology standpoint.
I especially liked your post about the individual. We have to think for ourselves and check things for ourselves. We have to save ourselves with the truth and the life (Jesus). Salvation does not come simply by belief in belief.
I will continue to do everything I can to help build a heaven on earth. We have always subconsciously known that we can reach heaven, but now we are starting to realize that there is no “pie in the sky” after we physically die. Abundant, eternal life is here now, always, and we can either receive it and reflect it, or block it out with the mind. Nature has given us the foundation; this is our window of opportunity to build a world that works in harmony with nature, as to relieve the unnecessary suffering on this earth instead of showing indifference. I think you might appreciate my blog linked in my signature. Also, look out for some threads I will be making.
It is nice to meet you, brother. Be well.
D
Detales
Guest
“Salvation does not come simply by belief in belief” is a statement of great significance. In the same way that an unexamined life is not worth living, an unexamined faith is not worth believing in. Of course, most people consider that the internal logic of the faith that they are already habituated to constitutes a thorough and exhaustive examination of all of the facts. Belief is not facts, and neither is faith history.
In finding one’s position it is useful to triangulate. The so called examination of, say, “knowing” the Bible from within ones accepted and therefore prejudicial faith does not constitute scholarship or critical thinking. It constitutes piety.
We live in a dangerous age, and are being lied to from all sides. And we know from many studies on the matter that the first human refuge in any disaster, from death of a loved one to the collapse of a fortune through the plane or ship going down, is denial. Denial is the first, foremost, and strongest reaction we have to any such thing. Why would it be different if someone told us our faith is incomplete in its foundation. Not even wrong, just incomplete. So in the minds of the faithful, as I have heard on here, it is more secure for them to stick with what they know than look at facts.
One fact is that few even are aware of the levels of language used in the time and place of Jesus. Even a cursory knowledge of the manner of teaching in parables used in Jesus’ time and local would lead one instantly to question if the way we popularly understand the Identity statement attributed to Him to be correct. But this takes effort beyond accepting the mode of argument of your own Church, which of course one prefers to believe. Remember the Titanic. Or better, remember that an expert is one who makes no mistakes as they approach the grand fallacy.
Tolle, nor Tull, nor One, nor D.Hawkins, nor Sankara, nor KG Mills, nor Buddha, nor Merrell-Wolff, nor Ramana, nor Katie, not any one of them, not even I wish for you to believe anything. What is being offered is a way from belief, to actual knowledge. In other words, if you truly believe that you are made in the image and likeness of God, then why are you listening to someone outside you as to what you are, instead of arduously looking for yourself, with the utmost curiosity??? And if you are made in the image and likeness of God, that is a done deal, and what could it do but enhance your understanding to have the widest possible and the deepest possible take on the nature of your own Being?
Three statements come to mind in this regard: “Earth is nothing but Heaven misunderstood.” (KG Mills) and “This is always already the other world!” (Da Free John)
and “The search for Reality is the most dangerous undertaking. It will destroy your world.” (Nisagadatta) But the world destroyed it the world of the blue pill, the false dream of what this all is. Now THERE is a life worth living!
In finding one’s position it is useful to triangulate. The so called examination of, say, “knowing” the Bible from within ones accepted and therefore prejudicial faith does not constitute scholarship or critical thinking. It constitutes piety.
We live in a dangerous age, and are being lied to from all sides. And we know from many studies on the matter that the first human refuge in any disaster, from death of a loved one to the collapse of a fortune through the plane or ship going down, is denial. Denial is the first, foremost, and strongest reaction we have to any such thing. Why would it be different if someone told us our faith is incomplete in its foundation. Not even wrong, just incomplete. So in the minds of the faithful, as I have heard on here, it is more secure for them to stick with what they know than look at facts.
One fact is that few even are aware of the levels of language used in the time and place of Jesus. Even a cursory knowledge of the manner of teaching in parables used in Jesus’ time and local would lead one instantly to question if the way we popularly understand the Identity statement attributed to Him to be correct. But this takes effort beyond accepting the mode of argument of your own Church, which of course one prefers to believe. Remember the Titanic. Or better, remember that an expert is one who makes no mistakes as they approach the grand fallacy.
Tolle, nor Tull, nor One, nor D.Hawkins, nor Sankara, nor KG Mills, nor Buddha, nor Merrell-Wolff, nor Ramana, nor Katie, not any one of them, not even I wish for you to believe anything. What is being offered is a way from belief, to actual knowledge. In other words, if you truly believe that you are made in the image and likeness of God, then why are you listening to someone outside you as to what you are, instead of arduously looking for yourself, with the utmost curiosity??? And if you are made in the image and likeness of God, that is a done deal, and what could it do but enhance your understanding to have the widest possible and the deepest possible take on the nature of your own Being?
Three statements come to mind in this regard: “Earth is nothing but Heaven misunderstood.” (KG Mills) and “This is always already the other world!” (Da Free John)
and “The search for Reality is the most dangerous undertaking. It will destroy your world.” (Nisagadatta) But the world destroyed it the world of the blue pill, the false dream of what this all is. Now THERE is a life worth living!
O
One
Guest
It doesn’t matter. No belief is true, and no belief is Truth.
This is not a belief in and of itself. It just is.
“Truth exists”, and beyond that, we can say nothing. The fact that so many people say so many things, and hold so many beliefs, about Truth should be an indication of how deluded we all are.
T
tonyrey
Guest
But how did you reach that conclusion? Have you always known Truth just is? I believe that Truth just is in the same way that Goodness just is because it is good to know the truth. They are both aspects of Ultimate Reality. And I believe Truth exists because our knowledge of particular truths obtains results!
O
One
Guest
~
Keep talking… keep talking. All such actions are just a desperate clinging to the raft.
~
You ask if i have always known this. you may not understand this as i put it, but yes, I-I have always known this, I-I just got caught up in the illusion.
If you ask if i have always known this, then no, i have not always known this.
(Note the capitalization.)
But getting to that point does not rely on accumulating information, knowledge, or belief structure. Quite to the contrary, it requires throwing all that dead-weight off of the raft, until there is nothing left for one to do except to float away from the herd.
Tell me anything; I’ll only say that it adds nothing to the equation, and only obfuscates Truth.
Keep talking… keep talking. All such actions are just a desperate clinging to the raft.
~
You ask if i have always known this. you may not understand this as i put it, but yes, I-I have always known this, I-I just got caught up in the illusion.
If you ask if i have always known this, then no, i have not always known this.
(Note the capitalization.)
But getting to that point does not rely on accumulating information, knowledge, or belief structure. Quite to the contrary, it requires throwing all that dead-weight off of the raft, until there is nothing left for one to do except to float away from the herd.
Tell me anything; I’ll only say that it adds nothing to the equation, and only obfuscates Truth.
- Status