Tongues: church's stand

[Joysong]

Nick9:

thanks Joysong. I do feel a bit guilty not being one of the in-crowd, but I am aware that there are many other Catholics who are just as unsuited to that style of prayer and worship as me. It is easy to feel that I am in the wrong, but I suppose it is an isolation experience which is in keeping with the walk with Jesus.

Nick, I have never spoken in tongues, yet I recognize that He has given me other gifts. I am at peace with this. Although this was never bestowed on me, I do understand and accept that others may be licitly praying or speaking in a prayer language. There is sufficient Catholic literature available over these years [and this forum’s many threads] that explains the gift to my satisfaction, so I need not fall under the arrogance of condemning it.

Be your own person, gladly filling the place in the Mystical Body that God assigned you. Not all are hands, but some must take the place of the foot, the eye or the ear. We work together for the good of the whole Body to glorify God. I have read many of your posts, and your gifts are obvious with your common sense and gift of prophetic teaching. EXCELLENT!!! Thanks be to God.

 

[Gidget]

My goodness! What a hot topic. I’m at work and had to go away and can’t believe what has popped up. Well, here’s my two cents:

I have experience with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and have taught as a team member for the Life in the Spirit Seminars. I can give you personal testimony as to the legitimacy of the gift of tongues; however, it appears that you are looking primarily for what the Church teaches in regard to this often misunderstood Corinthian gift. I would like to refer you to the following web page: www.Catholicexchange.com/2004/09/15/83041. Although there is much that I would add to the page, it does indicate that our Holy Father of Blessed Memory, Pope John Paul II, and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have expressed support of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the past. I will not pretend that difficulties do not exist in the theology among some who pray/speak in tongues ** (see note below). However, I find that there is quite a bit of confusion nowadays in the theology of transubstantiation among my brothers and sister who receive Holy Communion too. I commend you for seeking the truth in order to discern!

** I contend that speaking and praying in tongues are two distinct aspects of the gift – praying referring to when the Spirit intercedes for us when we do not know how to pray as we ought (and boy do I thank Him for that gift, which I exercise daily!) and the ministry of tongues which involves prophesying in a tongue (requiring an interpretation in order for the Body to benefit) When I pray in tongues, I speak to God. If I would be prophesying in tongues, I would be speaking to His Body, the Church and, therefore, an interpretation would be be required.

I will say that from personal experience, the daily yielding to the gift of tongues (which is definitely the least of the Corinthian gifts) has helped me to yield to the Spirit in many other areas of my life over which I, otherwise, would have kept control.

 

[InLight247]

Where discernment it is critically necessary would be upon the gifts of healing, prophecy, or miracles, which are always under intense scrutiny so as not to deceive the faithful; whereas, the gift of tongues does not deceive anyone or harm anyone. If the person is ‘faking it,’ the only one who is harmed spiritually is the ‘faker.’

Joysong, you brought up very valid points. As you said that discernment is critically necessary, but speaking in tongue will not harm anyone. If the person is faking it, the only one who is harmed spiritually is the faker himself.

Therefore, about speaking in tongue, the least of the gifts from Holy Spirit, I really don’t see the reason to fuss about it.

I once heard a teaching tape said that Satan wanted us to doubt any gift from the Holy Spirit. He likes to put doubt in people’s minds so the gifts won’t be used. As far as my understanding, speak in tongue is mainly praising God. Satan won’t want that to happen.

 

[palmas85]

Palmas, in every single thread on CCR or tongues, you have been demonstrably vehement in your condemnation of both. If we give you enough bandwidth, you will increasingly put forth your objections. Not a single thread where valid rebuttals were given have you listened or changed your opinion. That’s your right to believe as you will, but I submit that you are not qualified or appointed as God’s messenger to pass judgment on His work to the rest of the faithful.

As I asked earlier, how does the bishop discern?

No they do not just come upon a person, but are under the control of the person speaking. It is obvious you do not understand this gift, and therefore, no words of mine will suffice to teach you, nor have any others been able to share their witness to you profitably.

Only when it is a message for a group and is delivered in that fashion. “Prayer” tongues do not require interpretation, but are simply a prayer language used in private or in assembly, but which are not oracles sent by the Spirit, and therefore, need no interpretation.

Palmas, I am not going to get into another discussion with you, because you are closed and opposed. You may continue to condemn these charisms at your own risk of angering the Lord, and your own audacity of pronouncing them evil.

I don’t pronounce them evil. I just say they should be viewed with an eye of caution. So did the Holy Father. And yes, the speaking in tongues in the manner it is done now does concern me because it is not in any way scriptural and came from sources outside of the Catholic faith and sources which are fundamentally opposed to it.

From everything that I have ever seen on the subject the speaking of tongues was to be used for the benefit of all, not for the benefit of the one speaking and praying and a few choice others. All of the charisms were for the benefit of all, not just the one who had the gifts. What good would the gift of healing be if the healer only healed himself, or the teacher taught only himself or the prophysizer only prophesized to himself?

You’re right, I don’t understand It makes no sense to me at all for a few to have their own private prayer language that others cannot understand and really does nothing but separate them from the rest of us.

I don’t think that was what Christ wanted.

 

[StephenB]

Late to the conversation - and this is always a touchy point on the forums.

To borrow a phrase form Matthew Kelley:

“The abuse of a good does not negate the good of a good.” THe fact that some people are not properly using the gifts given to them is a shame and discredit to the other 100 million Catholics who do participate in the Renewal.

The charism/manifestation of speaking in tongues is the lowest gift of all gifts to be discerned and yet, still to be eagerly sought after.

Please take this into consideration - paraphrasing Fr. Mitch Pacwa - The traditional gifts of the Holy Spirit, which all Christians receive at Baptism are what sanctify us for the charisms of the New Testament, that is, the Mission Charisms.

There isn’t an us and them, except in individual perception. True Charismatic Catholics are part of every congregation in this country - because what we call the charismatic gifts are the gifts to go out and do something - teach, heal, prophesy, give words of knowledge, words of wisdom - and CAN BE DONE BY ANY baptised, believing Christian.

Peace!

Steve

 

[StephenB]

I once heard a teaching tape said that Satan wanted us to doubt any gift from the Holy Spirit. He likes to put doubt in people’s minds so the gifts won’t be used. As far as my understanding, speak in tongue is mainly praising God. Satan won’t want that to happen.

You can bet your bottom dollar that at every point where the Holy Spirit is acting, Satan is standing by waiting to steal the gift from you.

 

[Church_Militant]

we are encouraged in our parish to speak in tongues and I have tried, but I feel like a fool and just seem to be speaking nonsense. It does seem to be badge of honour and creates a bit of a ‘them and us’ situation.

This is interesting. People in our parish make a big deal of accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour and I personally have done so in the sense that I made an act of faith in what Christ has done for me and applied to me in baptism and confirmation (which I think is legitimate as the sacraments have to be received in faith to be effective). There is much talk of being alive in Christ and of having baptisms in the Spirit and life-changing experiences, which leaves me feeling a bit left out. I love God and want to serve Him more than anything and yet I feel I am missing something.

I may discontinue trying to pray in tongues as well. If God wants me to I am sure He will initiate it.

you feel that strongly against it? I went to a charismatic renewal day recently and this woman interrupted Mass before the final blessing with her announcements and the priest prayed in tongues during

Mass. I felt uncomfortable. There was an opportunity to be prayed with before Mass and I went up and this woman pressed her body into me as the priest prayed over me. I have had a bit of trouble lately in a spiritual sense and wonder if it was due to that prayer?That is actually a liturgical abuse (to the best of my knowledge) and probably needs to be reported to the local bishop. As I understand it. Nothing…BUT NOTHING is to interfere with the celebration of the Mass and this would be a pretty serious departure from the rubrics that all are bound to follow.

I really don’t like what I’m hearing, but if I were you, I’d call Catholic Answers at 619-387-7200 and talk to them about all this to find out if it’s really an abuse and then how they recommend handling it.

Oh, and yes, I do feel that strongly about this. Fortunately, the CCs in my parish have not done any of this that I know of, and I don’t think our pastor would allow it.

 

[Church_Militant]

…
I accept as genuine all valid

manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but when you go to these meetings and you are prodded urged and exhorted to exhibit them it just seems wrong. Add to that the fact that many of these same people will tell you that if you don’t receive something from the Holy Spirit, then you just aren’t trying hard enough, well I think it speaks for itself.

…I say be careful, Very, very careful with associating with charismatics of any denomination…I agree with this.

 

[saylo]

That is actually a liturgical abuse (to the best of my knowledge) and probably needs to be reported to the local bishop. As I understand it. Nothing…BUT NOTHING is to interfere with the celebration of the Mass and this would be a pretty serious departure from the rubrics that all are bound to follow.

I really don’t like what I’m hearing, but if I were you, I’d call Catholic Answers at 619-387-7200 and talk to them about all this to find out if it’s really an abuse and then how they recommend handling it.

Oh, and yes, I do feel that strongly about this. Fortunately, the CCs in my parish have not done any of this that I know of, and I don’t think our pastor would allow it.

This isn’t a stretch to think that the priest celebrating the Mass with tongues is like the Holy Spirit causing confusion at the Mass. Does this make spiritual sense? I don’t think so.

Either the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is ONE GOD or they go their own way. This is abominable and should be reported…it is a duty.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am not sure I can rest with this idea because, to be honest, I don’t know. I am reluctant to condemn them because I may be condemning God’s work

. The core of my parish are ‘charismatic’, following our priest. I struggle with it, but I am not at the stage of condemning it. I would rather tolerate it and accept that it may be God’s doing. In fact, I have to say that it is God’s doing at this stage. Who am I to disagree? Some people do seem to have been ‘set free’ from various psychological ailments through it.This is wise, but…
what they are teaching and practicing is not correct. I know from my years in the AoG.

There should never be pressure to speak in tongues. That’s unscriptural and St. Paul specifically condemns that idea in the chapters I cited earlier to the Corinthian church.

Notice a couple of things.
A great deal of emotionalism in their services.

What has emotion to do with the spiritual realities of the Mass? They are a personal factor and in no way affect the Mass, and shouldn’t.

If you are feeling like an outsider, or foolish, then something is wrong. We are all growing up into who we are in Christ Jesus and none of us are outsiders.

The rubrics of the Mass are very clear, and they do specifically say that nothing should interrupt of detract from it. People, or even a priest babbling away in tongues during the Mass (without any interpretation if I understand you correctly!) is both a liturgical abuse, and a scriptural one.

1st Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

One way I have heard Pentecostals attempt to rationalize this is that they claim, “I/we are praying in tongues, not prophesying.” My simple answer is, then you’re still wrong for speaking out loud. Look here…

Again, 1st Corinthians 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine? 7 Even things without life that give sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction of sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech, how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air. 10 There are, for example, so many kinds of tongues in this world; and none is without voice.

11 If then I know not the power of the voice, I shall be to him to whom I speak a barbarian; and he that speaketh, a barbarian to me. 12 So you also, forasmuch as you are zealous of spirits, seek to abound unto the edifying of the church. 13 And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, I will sing also with the understanding.

They know full well that if they are not going to interpret, or if no one is there to interpret, that they are supposed to pray quietly and not aloud. To say, (as some have) “well the Holy Spirit is in control” is also untrue…again remember that the spirit is subject to the person. This is all right there in the New Testament, so it’s not like it’s hidden.

The scriptures are very clear and anything else is disobedience pure and simple.

My dear Charismatic Catholic brothers and sisters, for the love of God, please do not let us stray into the errors of those who are already in error outside of the Church. We need to set the example, not follow theirs.

BTW Nick, if you have been confirmed the you already have the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Let no one try to tell you otherwise. They are scripturally wrong.

 

[Church_Militant]

Then don’t do it, and don’t let them intimidate you. There are many gifts of the Spirit, and He breathes where He wills. Your gift may be the more practical one of teaching or administering - but just because these practical gifts are not ‘showy’ don’t be concerned that you are missing something, because tongues is the very least of the gifts.

Wise advice JS!

 

[Joysong]

#1 … Reminder!
… the subject of this topic, what is the Church’s stand on tongues? The OP has been given his answer. The Church has not forbid any of the charisms, but Pope Benedict asks for prudence, patience, and much love so that they are not snuffed out by naysayers who have difficulty believing their authenticity.

#2 … Palmas’s personal difficulty believing is off topic, and is instilling misgivings in the reader who should be listening to the Church, not what Palmas fears.

Psalm 112:4
Even in darkness, light dawns for the upright, for the gracious and compassionate and righteous man.

#3 … If it were possible that the righteous man believes he is praying in tongues, but is not, the Lord will deliver him, as the psalm teaches.

We need only look at the fruit of the tree, as Jesus taught us. The fruit I have seen in the lives of these Catholic Charismatics demonstrates the virtues to a much greater degree than others. I know these people, and they attend DAILY mass, recite the rosary, fast and abstain, read scripture, and readily serve their brethren’s needs, etc.

From everything that I have ever seen on the subject the speaking of tongues was to be used for the benefit of all, not for the benefit of the one speaking and praying and a few choice others.

If you look at the gift of tongues as described earlier, one use of the gift is meant to deliver a message in assembly, and is for OTHERS; the oracle is then interpreted through the use of another charismatic gift.

But there are two types of tongues, and the gift for personal prayer is NOT meant to benefit the group, but only the person using it.

You’re right, I don’t understand It makes no sense to me at all for a few to have their own private prayer language that others cannot understand and really does nothing but separate them from the rest of us.

I don’t think that was what Christ wanted.

Read again, that there are two types of tongues. Others in the group are not separated, but pray in their own native tongue instead, if they do not have this gift.

I realize this is your personal opinion, but it is not one that is shared in the universal church. Remember, Palmas, that this movement is world-wide covering a span of almost 50 years; many bishops, priests and laity are involved. It would be very judgmental of a soul redeemed by Christ and who receives the sacraments, to imply that their prayer tongue is a tool of satan.

Would you tell this forum that in all these years, not a single bishop or pope has not thoroughly investigated and tested the Spirit? If it were demonic or dangerous, surely we would have heard from the Popes by now, who are well-informed by their bishops.

Which brings us back to point #1:

The OP has been given his answer. The Church has not forbid any of the charisms

 

[Joysong]

Church Militant:

That is actually a liturgical abuse

(to the best of my knowledge)

and probably needs to be reported to the local bishop. As I understand it. Nothing…BUT NOTHING is to interfere with the celebration of the Mass and this would be a pretty serious departure from the rubrics that all are bound to follow.

Until you have full knowledge and are certain, Michael, do you think it is wise to alarm the reader? This is an unjust assumption that once again, the priest is a renegade! The charismatic mass is a bit different from the norm, as are weddings, funerals, and teen masses. Each has their own set of rubrics. All dioceses have a charismatic liaison in the chancery directory who knows what is and what is not permitted.

If the priest is using his gift as an ‘aside’ along with the other attendants, such as after the consecration in an outpouring of spontaneous praise to God, for THEM it may be licit. The liaison is sure to be much more knowledgable than calling Catholic Answers, or he would not hold this office.

There should never be pressure to speak in tongues.

Agreed. As there should be no pressure for a lot of things going on in the church by well-meaning zealots, such as wearing a veil, etc., holding hands, etc. This is no different, but we may simply accept their good will and respond with, “it’s not my calling.”

One way I have heard Pentecostals attempt to rationalize this is that they claim, “I/we are praying in tongues, not prophesying.” My simple answer is, then you’re still wrong for speaking out loud. Look here…

Again, 1st Corinthians 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?

Paul was speaking about another matter entirely, C.M. I agree that it makes poor sense to come to YOU and speak in tongues. But in a worshipping assembly, whether the language is the native tongue or a prayer tongue, and all are praising God aloud, it is not a misdemeanor or abuse, but something very pleasing to God. Have you ever heard song tongues? The most beautiful harmonies of praise I have ever heard come from spontaneous voices lifted in prayer. It doesn’t even have to be an unknown tongue, but one’s own language shared within the assembly.

I think you need to consider that your advice may be over-regulated here. The Spirit is receiving the worship of these pray-ers and is well-pleased in many of these gatherings, contrary to the worries of the worts.

 

[palmas85]

#1 … Reminder!
… the subject of this topic, what is the Church’s stand on tongues? The OP has been given his answer. The Church has not forbid any of the charisms, but Pope Benedict asks for prudence, patience, and much love so that they are not snuffed out by naysayers who have difficulty believing their authenticity.

#2 … Palmas’s personal difficulty believing is off topic, and is instilling misgivings in the reader who should be listening to the Church, not what Palmas fears.

Psalm 112:4
Even in darkness, light dawns for the upright, for the gracious and compassionate and righteous man.

#3 … If it were possible that the righteous man believes he is praying in tongues, but is not, the Lord will deliver him, as the psalm teaches.

We need only look at the fruit of the tree, as Jesus taught us. The fruit I have seen in the lives of these Catholic Charismatics demonstrates the virtues to a much greater degree than others. I know these people, and they attend DAILY mass, recite the rosary, fast and abstain, read scripture, and readily serve their brethren’s needs, etc.

If you look at the gift of tongues as described earlier, one use of the gift is meant to deliver a message in assembly, and is for OTHERS; the oracle is then interpreted through the use of another charismatic gift.

But there are two types of tongues, and the gift for personal prayer is NOT meant to benefit the group, but only the person using it.

Read again, that there are two types of tongues. Others in the group are not separated, but pray in their own native tongue instead, if they do not have this gift.

I realize this is your personal opinion, but it is not one that is shared in the universal church. Remember, Palmas, that this movement is world-wide covering a span of almost 50 years; many bishops, priests and laity are involved. It would be very judgmental of a soul redeemed by Christ and who receives the sacraments, to imply that their prayer tongue is a tool of satan.

Would you tell this forum that in all these years, not a single bishop or pope has not thoroughly investigated and tested the Spirit? If it were demonic or dangerous, surely we would have heard from the Popes by now, who are well-informed by their bishops.

Which brings us back to point #1:

The OP has been given his answer. The Church has not forbid any of the charisms

OK Joy, I’ll just say this then and retire from the this thread. Paul himself said that not all such speech was inspired by the Holy Spirit but was the result of people in the Corinthian Church looking to improve their position within the Church and appear holier than the others. . He also set very, and I mean very strict guidelines on their usage in the Church. And last of all he said that they would stop.

Thats right. He said that they would stop. And they did Joy, they stopped very, very early in Church history. Revived to be sure by various heretical groups over the years, and to be fair and balanced a handful of Saints were also reported to have had this gift. Nothing more until the pentecostals started doing it around the turn of the 20th century.

As far as the Bishops, I don’t think they have been at every charismatic gathering over the past fifty years so I doubt that they would know if every such manifestation was true.

And I will state again, I support the valid manifestations of the charisms in every form. I really do. But if there was fraud and misuse of this particular charism in the early Church to the degree that Paul himself spoke about it in order to correct it and then later heretical groups claimed it as their own, then how can we today think that things are any different? I don’t believe they are different at all. Some manifestations are genuine, and others are not. People are people.

Thats all, as Paul said, test the spirits.

 

[Joysong]

Palmas

Another old adage, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

If that’s your belief, well and good, until such time as the Lord corrects you. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict us, not mine. In that same vein, it is not your job to instruct the Church according to what you believe is true, nor to disturb the faithful who honestly feel that they are speaking prayerfully, using the gift. Until such time as the Spirit convicts THEM, as well, we are not to judge; that is God’s sole perogative.

Thats all, as Paul said, test the spirits.

Agreed. Some also have the Divine charism of ‘discernment of spirits’ and have already done so. We look at the tree itself to examine its fruit. I have not found in the majority of charismatics a spirit that is anything but GOOD. For those who are misusing the gift, we listen to Pope Benedict, and use prudence, patience, and MUCH love in bringing them to correction. It is not a license to abort or discontinue the CCR movement in the Church.

If you continue to speak against it, you may be kicking against the goad – another experience of St. Paul that proved to be humiliating to him.

 

[Church_Militant]

Until you have full knowledge and are certain, Michael, do you think it is wise to alarm the reader?

Inform. This needs to be brought to the Bishop’s attention either way, and not passed off as giving the benefit of the doubt. It appears to be a disruptive aspect introduced into the Mass, which makes it a matter for the local Bishop.

This is an unjust assumption that once again, the priest is a renegade!

I never alleged that Joy. I’m saying it needs the Bishop’s attention because it’s his responsibility.

The charismatic mass is a bit different from the norm, as are …

I am unaware of any such thing, but I wouldn’t attend it if I did. It’s just not something that I care to get into.

Each has their own set of rubrics. All dioceses have a charismatic liaison in the chancery directory who knows what is and what is not permitted.

And again, it proves to be a matter for the Bishop…

If the priest is using his gift as an ‘aside’ along with the other attendants, such as after the consecration in an outpouring of spontaneous praise to God, for THEM it may be licit. The liaison is sure to be much more knowledgable than calling Catholic Answers, or he would not hold this office.

As may be, but the OP needs information in order to make a good decision and CA could guide him.

Agreed. As there should be no pressure for a lot of things going on in the church by well-meaning zealots, such as wearing a veil, etc., holding hands, etc. This is no different, but we may simply accept their good will and respond with, “it’s not my calling.”

Agreed with regard to pressure.

Their good will does not mean that they are doing what they should be.

The scripture clearly prohibits prayer tongues spoken aloud, and that is in fact what St. Paul is referring to when he writes, "[23] If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
[24] But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
[25] the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
[26] What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
[27] If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.
[29] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
[30] If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
[31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged;
[32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, "

Verse 23 is precisely what is happening here with the OP.

Paul was speaking about another matter entirely, C.M. I agree that it makes poor sense to come to YOU and speak in tongues.

Actually it does since I actually have discerned and interpreted, and so fulfill the mandate that one be there who can interpret.

But in a worshipping assembly, whether the language is the native tongue or a prayer tongue, and all are praising God aloud

, it is not a misdemeanor or abuse, but something very pleasing to God.I’m sorry Joy, but that is not true according to the passage that I cited above. It is disorder and confusion and especially so during a Mass celebration.

This is precisely the same argument that I have heard and seen again and again, and is in fact my whole point in this discussion. When discussing this, the argument is often advanced that follows something like this. “Well, we are charismatics and acting under the influence of the Holy Spirit and so therefore we are an exception.” Yet no such exception exists, as 1st Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 all make very clear.

Have you ever heard song tongues? The most beautiful harmonies of praise I have ever heard come from spontaneous voices lifted in prayer. It doesn’t even have to be an unknown tongue, but one’s own language shared within the assembly.

Certainly, but again, nothing, but nothing, waives the mandate that St. Paul gives us.

I think you need to consider that your advice may be over-regulated here.

And I’ll disagree with you here. I have stood in congregations and heard tongues that I discerned were not of God. Most times it was carnal showboating, and other times I interpreted because I had to, though the person should have remained quiet.

Not every tongue is from the Holy Spirit. Believe me, I know.

The Spirit is receiving the worship of these pray-ers and is well-pleased in many of these gatherings,

contrary to the worries of the worts.If they are in violation of the New Testament (which we KNOW is from the Holy Spirit and IS pleasing to Him) in some way, then how can they also be pleasing to Him if they are being disobedient, Joy?!

I’m sorry to rain on your parade my friend, but this is not baseless worry, this is the actual teaching that should be passed on to every single Charismatic Catholic to insure that as St. Paul says in closing his teaching on all this. (Chapter 14 again)

[39] So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;
[40] but all things should be done decently and in order.

 

[Church_Militant]

Palmas

Another old adage, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

If that’s your belief, well and good, until such time as the Lord corrects you. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict us, not mine. In that same vein, it is not your job to instruct the Church according to what you believe is true, nor to disturb the faithful who honestly feel that they are speaking prayerfully, using the gift.

Until such time as the Spirit convicts THEM, as well, we are not to judge; that is God’s sole perogativeI think that here you somewhat misrepresent what Palmas has said.

He nor I have judged or condemned anyone, but we have sought to offer scriptural information relevant to the issue so that others can make a necessary informed discernment. “Honestly feeling” is, unfortunately not a criteria in this case as there are clear scriptural guidelines to be followed.

As Catholics we follow those same scriptural guidelines with regard to Baptism, the Eucharist, Salvation, and all other aspects of our most holy faith, and this is no different.

Agreed. Some also have the Divine charism of ‘discernment of spirits’ and have already done so. We look at the tree itself to examine its fruit. I have not found in the majority of charismatics a spirit that is anything but GOOD.

Praise God for that, but I have also seen such fruit as causes great concern.

For those who are misusing the gift, we listen to Pope Benedict, and use prudence, patience, and MUCH love in bringing them to correction. It is not a license to abort or discontinue the CCR movement in the Church.

I don’t think that I or anyone else so far on this thread has advocated any such thing and I think you have over-reacted. Much love in correction does not include ignoring a problem or failing to get the local Bishop properly involved in the process.

If you continue to speak against it, you may be kicking against the goad

– another experience of St. Paul that proved to be humiliating to him.I doubt that, and here again, I think you misrepresent the comments and cautions offered so far.

 

[Joysong]

He nor I have judged or condemned anyone, but we have sought to offer scriptural information relevant to the issue so that others can make a necessary informed discernment.

All of this is simply your interpretation of scripture which I believe is taken completely out of context from the entire chapter expounding tongues. Many things advocated by St. Paul in the culture of his time are no longer in practice today, due to changing influences and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For YOU to say the scripture must be practiced literally according to your interpretation is simply a wrong teaching, and is opposite the Spirit’s present guidance. Use of prayer tongues was a matter of discipline solely for that ancient immature community, rather than an item of doctrinal faith. As you know, disciplines have changed completely over the centuries, according to the CHURCH’S guidance befitting the culture. You are treating this as a doctrine as if it were possibly a sin and/or abuse.

We go back to the topic, in which the OP is asking about the Church’s stand. Again, the topic is not to discourage people with explanations of why tongues are forbidden, unwise, unholy, satanic, disruptive, etc. It is to inquire about the church’s stand, and the OP has been furnished with material showing Pope Benedict’s approval. The charisms he advocated include ALL charisms and gifts, none excluded.

1. That is actually a liturgical abuse
   and probably needs to be reported to the local bishop.

1. This needs to be brought to the Bishop’s attention either way, and not passed off as giving the benefit of the doubt. It appears to be a disruptive aspect introduced into the Mass, which makes it a matter for the local Bishop.

Do you see the undercurrent of your assumption? It is already judged as an abuse (your previous post) that needs “reporting” rather than “check with the diocesan authority to learn.”
I am always appalled at the little faith people have in their priests, but I do understand where the evil originated … right here on this CAF forum with people issuing post after post about some alleged abuse of the clergy. The trust in our clergy has waned to a high degree and everything they do is suspect. How utterly sad and deplorable! If you want to talk about an insidious evil to destroy the Church, let’s have a new thread on THAT. Nobody seems to feel alarmed, but whenever tongues are discussed, all the zealots come out in full armor.

IF there are problems that need correcting, we must do so with prudence, patience, and much love, as the Pope desires. What I find here in this thread is excessive prudence, but no patience or love; rather I see posts advocating abandonment of a lawful charism/gift based on private opinion and personal experience that is local only, and not indicative of the movement as it is practiced over the whole world.

It is very disheartening to see all of these attacks on what the Church has allowed and approved. These type of posts are poisonous to unity and wrongfully disregard the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

 

[Nick9]

Nick, I have never spoken in tongues, yet I recognize that He has given me other gifts. I am at peace with this.

I am in good company then

Although this was never bestowed on me, I do understand and accept that others may be licitly praying or speaking in a prayer language. There is sufficient Catholic literature available over these years [and this forum’s many threads] that explains the gift to my satisfaction, so I need not fall under the arrogance of condemning it.

I share you point of view. However, people in our parish say that everyone can pray in tongues and all you have to do is to start making the sounds, as if it is not a special gift at all. I am left thinking that by their definition I **do **pray in tongues and should carry on ‘making the sounds’, while at the same time feeling a bit daft. As part of my discernment and because I said I was lost as to God’s will, I was advised to start praying in tongues for 5 minutes and work up to an hour after a month. I have not even attempted this.

Be your own person, gladly filling the place in the Mystical Body that God assigned you. Not all are hands, but some must take the place of the foot, the eye or the ear. We work together for the good of the whole Body to glorify God. I have read many of your posts, and your gifts are obvious with your common sense and gift of prophetic teaching. EXCELLENT!!! Thanks be to God.

wow, that is encouragement, thanks! I have also read some of your posts and was very impressed, so I am doubly honoured I just wish I knew my place in the Body…

 

[Nick9]

I will say that from personal experience, the daily yielding to the gift of tongues (which is definitely the least of the Corinthian gifts) has helped me to yield to the Spirit in many other areas of my life over which I, otherwise, would have kept control.

This is interesting. I often feel that I haven’t totally yielded to the Holy Spirit and yet I would like to. Of course, the Holy Spirit always leaves us free, so it is not a case of being taken over as such.