Tongues: church's stand

[Nick9]

Maybe the forum will indulge us a moment or two.
Secular Carmelites are called to a life of prayer but then take the fruit of it out into their active lives in whatever form of ministry God inspires them with. I am presently considering and praying about a deeper rule of life beyond the duties I committed to in prayer.

I once gave all my stuff away and served in church and I was on fire, but I was advised against it. I pictured the ideal situation as being in a hermitage while ministering in the church. That was a long time ago.

The uncomfortabililty and possible stunted growth are good symptoms, Nick, that maybe you are not in the right soil. It’s possible you are hearing a different call from God, and it is not charismatic. Try a novena to the Holy Spirit, and regular prayer to Him to guide you.

Carole

I was thinking this the other day! Also, my PP suggested I ask the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the confirmation Carole. I am looking at the Cistercian life and am having a live-in in October to see if it seems right. I have had some signs for it.

 

[Nick9]

Don’t have to understand what it is you are saying in a prayer?

sorry, is this question aimed at me or InLight? I am not sure if those who pray in tongues do understand what they are saying. I am pretty sure our tongue prayers don’t. I believe from what people are saying here that the type of tongues in which a person prays to God one-on-one does not have to be understood by the person

 

[stacybks]

I’m not yet in the Catholic Church but am riding the Tiber River right now…

From an ex-Pentecostal Holiness viewpoint… I can say that many are confused about tongues and don’t know what it truly is.

There are two aspects of tongues: devotional prayer language and prophetic tongues that require interpretation.

I’ve experienced both in the past. However, even though I have the gift as a devotional tongue, rarely use it these days because I am not compelled to use it unless “the Spirit [gives me] utterance.” I solely come from the understanding and experience that when I pray united in the Spirit the prayer is usually to benefit others or is in regards to an issue at the time. For instance, my dad was heartbroken that my brother couldn’t come and visit… When my dad cried it broke my heart and I felt something rising within me, a burdensome feeling, that I ran to my room, crying, and began praying in tongues. After I had finished mom received a call and my brother changed his mind.

I have also learned and been involved in the misconceptions of the gift of tongues. It can be very damaging to one, especially someone who grows up with this gift being dominant around them. I was heartbroken in the Pentecostal church but found refuge in the Catholic Church and realize that the emotionalism in the Pentecostal church and various other Protestant congregations is misleading and a tool used by Satan to create dissension, disunity, and discord.

As a soon-to-be Catholic, my entire theological background makes sense but only to a point now that I have seen the Truth in the Teachings of the Church. I cannot turn back nor do I have the desire.

I have noticed that many people prefer to argue on this forum just as any other forum and it’s due to our human nature… but it really needs to stop… that’s one way Satan can attack us is to make us argue with one another… Let those who do not desire the gift nor partake in it realize that they have access to the gift if they ever wish to ask but not argue with those who do. Let those who have or desire the gift to use it wisely and in accordance with Church Teachings and to respect the former as fellow Catholics and Christians and focus on the foundation of our Faith. However, let both groups use discernment in all things… not just this particular matter. Because by the fruits we shall know those who labor among us and live the Faith.

 

[InLight247]

sorry, is this question aimed at me or InLight? I am not sure if those who pray in tongues do understand what they are saying. I am pretty sure our tongue prayers don’t. I believe from what people are saying here that the type of tongues in which a person prays to God one-on-one does not have to be understood by the person

Usually people pray in tongue don’t understand what they are praying. It occurred to me most of the time when I was praying in tongue, I was simply praising God. My perception may or may not be right. All I can say is when I prayed in tongue, I sometimes felt the joy in my heart and the praising from within. Again, my perception may or may not be right.

I am now into contemplative prayer and enjoy the silent solitude so much more than charismatic. In St. Faustina’s diary, she said, “My happiest moments are when I am alone with my Lord.” And that is truly my happiest moment all the time.

 

[Nick9]

I am now into contemplative prayer and enjoy the silent solitude so much more than charismatic. In St. Faustina’s diary, she said, “My happiest moments are when I am alone with my Lord.” And that is truly my happiest moment all the time.

I think contemplative prayer is the goal of all of us: seeing God face to face in heaven and no doubt you have progressed further on your journey towards that end.

 

[Joysong]

Nick,

I just finished the Chaplet of Divine Mercy at the 3 PM hour, and in the middle of it came a remembrance of the scripture from Jesus, rather than the chapter I wanted to quote earlier from John of the Cross. Jesus said to those who rebuked His disciples for failure to fast, "When the bridegroom is with them, they cannot fast, but the days will come when the Bridegroom will be taken away, and in those days, they will fast.

This is true for all of us in the days of consolation - we will simply rejoice in the Lord’s presence with us. But when we are in the desert and darkness, and I note that he said the Bridegroom will be taken away, we will fast and walk in the straits of dark absence. I believe there is a two-fold meaning to scripture, and it was not Jesus’s only meaning, as He knew about His future Ascension, but meant to teach us also what will happen as we live our own paschal mystery.

Therefore, we ought not to pass judgment on the enthusiasm of the charismatics, as if they are emotional misfits, for while the Bridegroom is with them, they too will rejoice. I don’t know who this was meant for, but it came as a sudden unexpected light.

 

[Nick9]

Therefore, we ought not to pass judgment on the enthusiasm of the charismatics, as if they are emotional misfits, for while the Bridegroom is with them, they too will rejoice.

don’t get me wrong, I don’t judge them as wrong in their enthusiasm. I many ways, perhaps all, I envy them. They clearly love God and know that He loves them and they are happiest when praising Him. They are like angels in a way. I know one woman who is joyful and thankful to God even though she has had a hard life and her family is suffering around her. Hers is no fleeting enthusiasm. She has been like that for 20 years. My attitude is that if it is God’s will that I don’t experience these consolations, His will be done.

 

[saylo]

All of this begs the question: If we have those that are devoted to speaking in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit and is manifested by their praying in tongues

and

on the other hand we have those who do not believe the Holy Spirit is decending on those at charismatic assemblies but rather believe in the prayers that have been handed down from genaration-to-generation …then one or the other possesses the Holy Spirit. It cannot be both because this is a divisive practice/belief.

There is one path that is in error…

 

[Joysong]

Saylo:

then one or the other possesses the Holy Spirit. It cannot be both because this is a divisive practice/belief.

Says who, you?

It is very disheartening to see all of these attacks on what the Church has allowed and approved. These type of posts are poisonous to unity and wrongfully disregard the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

 

[Joysong]

The matter of speaking in tongues has been masticated to death on this forum, but there may be some who have not read all that the Church has spoken, and who will continue their opposition in pure ignorance and error. I offer Pope John Paul II’s encyclical:

Charisms

1. The Holy Spirit, while bestowing diverse ministries in Church communion, enriches it still further with particular gifts or promptings of grace, called charisms. These can take a great variety of forms, both as a manifestation of the absolute freedom of the Spirit who abundantly supplies them, and as a response to the varied needs of the Church in history. The description and the classification given to these gifts in the New Testament are an indication of their rich variety. “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues” (1 Cor 12:7-10; cf. 1 Cor 12:4-6, 28-31; Rom 12:6-8; 1 Pt 4:10-11).

Whether they be exceptional and great or simple and ordinary, the charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit that have, directly or indirectly, a usefulness for the ecclesial community, ordered as they are to the building up of the Church, to the well-being of humanity and to the needs of the world.

Note well, please, that he speaks in present tense, not as something that only happened in the days of the apostles, or the Pope would have used the word “were” in paragraph 2.

And he does include the gift of ‘various’ tongues. This does not mean various languages spoken in tongues, but various operations of the gift of tongues.

 

[saylo]

Says who, you?

It is very disheartening to see all of these attacks on what the Church has allowed and approved. These type of posts are poisonous to unity and wrongfully disregard the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

So then, what you are implying is that those Catholics that reject the Charismatic movement are “outside the circle?”

Are they cutoff from grace? Are they more distant from the Holy Spirit? Are they schismatic? Are they on a dangerous path? Are they disavowing their Confirmation? Are they commiting sacrilege when they receive Holy Communion because they reject this movement? Are they bound to confess their rejection of the Charismatic movement as a mortal sin?

Are the standard prayers no longer reaching Heaven? Are they a “fallen” congregation? Will they ultimately, (should they die in their rejection) ticketed for Hell?

 

[Nick9]

So then, what you are implying is that those Catholics that reject the Charismatic movement are “outside the circle?”

Are they cutoff from grace? Are they more distant from the Holy Spirit? Are they schismatic? Are they on a dangerous path? Are they disavowing their Confirmation? Are they commiting sacrilege when they receive Holy Communion because they reject this movement? Are they bound to confess their rejection of the Charismatic movement as a mortal sin?

Are the standard prayers no longer reaching Heaven? Are they a “fallen” congregation? Will they ultimately, (should they die in their rejection) ticketed for Hell?

you can’t put God in a box, saylo. He uses formal liturgy for the normal distribution of graces, but He also operates outside this formality, otherwise explicit Church membership would be necessary for salvation. The fact is, if there appears to be discord and disagreement between traditionalists and charismatics then that is because we are too small and do not see the whole picture. It is not a case of them or us, but of God working in His own mysterious way to cater for as many people as possible.

 

[InLight247]

you can’t put God in a box, saylo. He uses formal liturgy for the normal distribution of graces, but He also operates outside this formality, otherwise explicit Church membership would be necessary for salvation. The fact is, if there appears to be discord and disagreement between traditionalists and charismatics then that is because we are too small and do not see the whole picture. It is not a case of them or us, but of God working in His own mysterious way to cater for as many people as possible.

Well said, Nick!

I find it interesting we human beings with our limited minds and limited thinking sometimes tend to categorize things as “either or” and create unnecessary complex. God is unlimited. Those who do not appreciate the gift of tongues don’t have to impose any complex on themselves by thinking of any question of lack or doubt.

God loves variety; otherwise, He would not create people with different skin colors and languages. He wouldn’t create different trees, flowers,and animals. He wouldn’t create different scenery in different places. God’s grace and gifts are bestowed to different people freely by His own will. God is a dynamic God, God loves variety. Please don’t hold such mentality that if what you have is different from what I have, then one of us must hold something fake. It is never like that, especially for something upon the Church’s approval.

We all can have mis-conceptions. But we can always accept a new understanding ------ that is if the person has an open mind and is willing to listen and grow.

 

[Nick9]

God loves variety; otherwise, He would not create people with different skin colors and languages. He wouldn’t create different trees, flowers,and animals. He wouldn’t create different scenery in different places. God’s grace and gifts are bestowed to different people freely by His own will. God is a dynamic God, God loves variety.

thanks InLight. I once read (Aquinas I think) that the reason why every individual is unique is that such collective variety best reflects God’s infinity. God does love variety. He loves to surprise us, while at the same time creating an ordered framework for it all to hang together in.

 

[Joysong]

Saylo:

So then, what you are implying is that those Catholics that reject the Charismatic movement are “outside the circle?”

Are they cutoff from grace? Are they more distant from the Holy Spirit? Are they schismatic? Are they on a dangerous path? Are they disavowing their Confirmation? Are they commiting sacrilege when they receive Holy Communion because they reject this movement? Are they bound to confess their rejection of the Charismatic movement as a mortal sin?

Did I say any of that, or “imply” any of that? No. Please read …

These type of posts are poisonous to unity and wrongfully disregard the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

Placing yourself above the Church’s teaching and publicly inciting others to follow your errors, is poisonous to unity. We profess in our Creed that we believe in one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church. If you do not believe Her authority, it is like a cancer cell in the Mystical Body that erodes healthy cells. I am not one to judge the state of your soul for holding disbelief. Yet with the sufficient profusion of documentation to demonstrate the truth, you set yourself in opposition to the Holy Spirit when you oppose the Magisteriium [however serious the consequences of that may be.]

St. Paul was so convinced he was right, that he was on a warpath to murder the followers of the “Way” and in fact, caused the murder of St. Stephen. It took a powerful encounter with Christ to show him his error. Jesus warned Paul that in persecuting those people, he was actually persecuting Christ Himself.

All along, however, the Truth was there, but he refused to see it or believe it. My only sense of obligation is to speak the truth that the Church upholds, like St. Stephen did, even if others oppose it. I believe his martyrdom and forgiveness of Paul was the very grace that won his conversion.

May God bless you, Saylo. It is not me who will convict you, if the words of the Church have not caused you to cease judging God’s work and God’s people.

The charges have been made that charismatics are elitists thinking they are better than others, yet if their opponents look in the mirror, their judgment as being more correct than the charismatics is just as elitist, if not more so.

 

[saylo]

you can’t put God in a box, saylo. He uses formal liturgy for the normal distribution of graces, but He also operates outside this formality, otherwise explicit Church membership would be necessary for salvation. The fact is, if there appears to be discord and disagreement between traditionalists and charismatics then that is because we are too small and do not see the whole picture. It is not a case of them or us, but of God working in His own mysterious way to cater for as many people as possible.

Do you know of any Pope that ever attended or officiated at one of these Charismatic events?

Do you know of a pope that encouraged this?

You right. We cannot put God “in a box.” Who says we are doing that? That makes no siritual sene at all from an Orthodox/Traditional Catholic point of view.

 

[InLight247]

Speaking in tongues at charismatic assemblies serve no end…it is like a magic show that reaps no end but entertainment. If no one can understand a word what is the purpose?

The "tongues convert no one…from my personal point of view.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5:
Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

The Bible clearly said tongue builds the person himself up.
It is not magic show or entertainment, it is God’s purpose to build the person who speaks in tongue up.

It also clearly said “I should like **all **of you to speak in tongues,” but prophesy is a better gift.

I hope this helps.

 

[saylo]

The Bible clearly said tongue builds the person himself up.
It is not magic show or entertainment, it is God’s purpose to build the person who speaks in tongue up.

It also clearly said “I should like **all **of you to speak in tongues,” but prophesy is a better gift.

I hope this helps.

Speaking in tongues has no worth when it is not understood by the “speaker of tongues.” It has no value.

Even possessed people “speak in tongues” while in exorcism. Some of those languages in exorcisms go back to ancient dialects from very obscure tribes.

 

[Nick9]

Do you know of any Pope that ever attended or officiated at one of these Charismatic events?

not that I know of.

Do you know of a pope that encouraged this?.

only that JPII and Benedict XVI welcome it, albeit with the caution that should be present towards all new movements. JPII once said to the charismatics: I like you Holy Spirit people, you bring me Jesus (as quoted by Charles Whitehead on the DVD: Alive In Christ).

You right. We cannot put God “in a box.” Who says we are doing that? That makes no siritual sene at all from an Orthodox/Traditional Catholic point of view.

I am making no judgment on tongues, either one way or the other, because I am not qualified to. I cannot reject it because the Church doesn’t reject it. The Church knows that God moves in mysterious ways and initiates new things as He wills. She is careful not to stifle the Spirit. It is in this way that I meant that we cannot put God in a box.

 

[InLight247]

Speaking in tongues has no worth when it is not understood by the “speaker of tongues.” It has no value.

Even possessed people “speak in tongues” while in exorcism. Some of those languages in exorcisms go back to ancient dialects from very obscure tribes.

Saylo, I was showing you what the Scripture says, didn’t you read it?

1 Corinthians 13:4-5:
Whoever speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but whoever prophesies builds up the church. Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

If both Church teachings and Scriptures, the Holy Bible, the Word of God, cannot help you learn, not even listen, if you can publicly ignore Church’s teaching and ignore the Bible, then there is no need for anyone to say anything to you any more. period.