Tongues during Holy Mass - Liturgical Abuse?

[Lux_et_veritas]

ALL:

I would like to address the dialogue that took place between myself and Carole (Joysong). Carole and I have had some offline conversations and we are doing just fine. It is for this reason we have not been having exchanges in the thread. I believe we had some early misunderstandings and both reacted - in fact, almost at the same time as we crossed wires before the other finished their post. We were posting and editing at the same time, without a chance to fully understand each other. This made it look worse than it was. Carole also thought that by using bold, it meant shouting, and may very well be the case. However, in other forums and in these forums, I have typically used bold when pasting quoted material to highlight a small area of a large paragraph. This was my intent, but Carole made an honest minsterpretation of the bold, which she clarified later.

When it comes to talking about these kinds of subjects, we really need to exercise charity all the way around, regardless of where we stand - pro, con, or neutral.

Engaging in these forums has taught me something, as well as discussions with people outside of the forums: Don’t react tersely when challenged and challenge others without being terse.

I appreciate any challenges that come my way on this subject, otherwise, there is no sense making such a post. Let people express their opinion and if it challenges my position that is fine. It’s up to me or anyone else who feels as I do to calmly, and with charity find a response and if one cannot be given, to acknowledge a point well made.

For the remainder of this thread, lets please approach the topic this way.

 

[gusano]

porthos11:

Gusano, I owe you an apology.

I misread your post, and I thought you said that the Pentecostal revival is infinitely richer than the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass. You actually wrote that it’s richer IN the Ordinary Roman Catholic Mass.

So it’s not bull after all. Please forgive.

Hi porthos11,
Thanks, apologies accepted.
The “FORGIVENESS LAMP” is lit.
You did the right thing…you were acting in Holy Boldness !

"Richer IN…" instead of “richer than…”

I am reminded of a time (long time) when I did not know what was present in the Mass…
Not richness, not anything, …nothing
only emptiness

Thank God, He has changed all that for me.

God Bless,

gusano

 

[gusano]

palmas85:

Scripture does not offend me hermanito, mindless and meaningless quotation of it does. As an example I will tell you this. go to, oh pick a Protestant Church at ramdom. Try to stick with either the Baptists or Pentecostals or even the Witnesses or the Brethern. Listen to their preaching, listen to their apologists. I would estimate that between 75 and 90% of their message is scriptural quotations, which they have picked out, interpreted, used out of context and basicaly exploited to promote their own agenda. Thats the funny thing about Scripture hermanito, it can be interpreted to support almost any position whatsoever.

Hi Palmas,
I am promised to learn the Scriptures so I can, to the best of my ability, Expose accurately the Teachings Christ deposited in the Church He is building,
To reveal The New Covenant,
The participate in and reveal the Work of The Holy Spirit,
That God may lead us all through the "Open Door, which no man can shut"
His Eucharistic Sacrifice.

I believe the early fathers of the Church were correct and very foresighted, ( hum…foresight or prophecy, wasn’t that one of the early gifts of the Holy Spirit as well?), in the way they set the Church up so that we were NOT DEPENDENT ON SCRIPTURE ALONE , as so many Protestants are.

While I do not think I will ever believe in the Charismatics style of worship, and further
**believe in my heart that you have been led away from the true Church, **
I do believe hermanito, from our correspondence that you are sincere and that you both love and fear God.

Tu a la familia siempre estan en mis oraciones hermanito, que dios les bendiga.

COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS

Thank you for your prayers Palmas,
You are unhindered to believe what ever is in your imagination.

I prefer to believe what God has already brought me through and revealed to me.
I was once ordered by a priest, whom I love and respect to get out of the Church, because of my experience and effect of The Holy Spirit acting in my life.
I went to The Lord and asked what I should do.
He set me straight.
and here I still am; an ordinary Catholic in ordinary time.
In the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Palmas,you once told me that you are of the church that separated itself from Rome after Vatican II.
YES. …from that church I am away .

"When He comes, however, being the Spirit of Truth
He will guide you to all truth…"
John 16: 13

If you stop resisting The Holy Spirit (see Acts 7: 51)
I am willing to bet $1.98 that you will see things differently wonderful !

God Bless

tu hermanito
gusano

 

[gusano]

Lux_et_veritas:

As a member of the Mystical Body,liturgical abuse is everyone’s business, if it is liturgical abuse. I can only think outloud and ponder the question and see what others come up with. As stated above, nothing has persuaded me to believe it is not. Usually,
** the best way to learn is to present an argument** that is more objective and see if anyone can poke holes in it with something other than feelings and emotion (subjective).

Hi Lux-et-veritas,
According to John 4: 23 Liturgical Abuse is not what God is interested in.
He is interested in “Liturgical Worship”…
“…authentic worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth.
Indeed, it is just such worshipers the Father seeks”.

What good, for instance, would it do me,
if I could detect all the faults of all the worshipers, and I myself was not enjoying my own worship of The Father ?

If I was in the " business of liturgical abuse" …I would not have time to be in the business of “Liturgical Worship”
they are both at opposite sides of the “great gulf” , you know ?

There is a better way to learn than to present an argument;
and that is to ask The Son, while presenting to us.
"Father…what you have hidden from the learned and the clever you have revealed to the merest children…
you have graciously willed it so.
…
no one knows the Father but the Son----
and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
Whom the Son wishes…

I am still open to the possiblity that my position is incorrect, but need the necessary argument to sway me.
**Since I do not think it will come through either forum, **
I will let the CDW help me in a final discernment. Only God Himself would know why an ordinary lay person would be driven to ponder such a question so deeply.

The Holy Spirit will come to you and lead you to Authentic Liturgical Worship when you finally surrender all to Him.
He is already in you (if you are Baptized into Christ)…but quite possibly, you are in charge, instead of The Spirit.
(see Luke 14: 33)

and when He does you will enjoy WORSHIP so much …it will burst all hindrances, bondages, pride, fear, competition, criticism, comparison…
There will not be any room for “liturgical abuse” in our soul…
only room for “AUTHENTIC LITURGUCAL WORSHIP” .
We will not be “liturgical police”
We will be children…in the presense of OUR AWESOME GOD !
in our parishes.

a mere child,

gusano

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Hi Lux-et-veritas,
According to John 4: 23 Liturgical Abuse is not what God is interested in.
He is interested in “Liturgical Worship”…
"…authentic worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth.
Indeed, it is just such worshipers the Father seeks".

Your argument seems to favor scripture alone, disregarding other things that make up the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Do you believe whole-heartedly with all that makes up the deposit of faith, or only scripture? In the deposit of faith is scipture, Canon Law, apostolic letters, councils, etc - namely, the items below:

Paul VI, address of August 22, 1973: “L’Osservatore Romano,” August 23, 1973.

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. **The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” Sacrosanctum Concilium] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: “Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense.”

Canon 528 ß2: “The parish priest is to take care that the blessed Eucharist is the center of the parish assembly of the faithful. He is to strive to ensure that the faithful are nourished by the devout celebration of the sacraments, and in particular that they frequently approach the sacraments of the blessed Eucharist and penance. He is to strive to lead them to prayer, including prayer in their families, and to take a live and active part in the sacred liturgy. Under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, the parish priest must direct this liturgy in his own parish, and he is bound to be on guard against abuses.”

And when the priest is not guarding against abuses, Redemptionis Sacramentum tells us:

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] …

In the case of “Tongues” at Holy Mass, I have already stated that I believe it to be an unintentional form of liturgical abuse, one that would require clarification from the Holy See. The activity distracts some present, who are “not gifted”, from a given moment in the Mass. I do not believe the Holy Spirit would drive people to engage in a practice during Holy Mass that would remove others from the sanctity of the moment, in particular when it occurs during the elevation.

Your argument further looses ground on the basis that the priest does not own the Mass, rather it is owned by the Church and the Church defines the rubrics. When the priest does not follow the rubrics, the faithful are denied their right to a fully valid Mass and one that is also free of illicit content.

No where in scripture will you find the Mass as we see it today. Therefore, scripture arguments alone will not suffice. The Mass was handed down to us through Sacred Tradition.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

gusano:

I am not sure how to respond to your post porthos11,
I guess “Bull” perplexes me…
are you iritated at something I said ?

I do agree with you that nothing is richer than the Mass .
Nothing. except heaven.

and I will say that
Christ’s crucifixion was riddled with brutality, mockery, condemnation, unbelief…except for a few.

Pentecost, was riddled with disbelief, confusion, astonishment, amazement, dombfoundedness, sneering, mockery…
except for the 120 disciples (including Mary)

And the Apostles could not come to the defense of Jesus because they had not yet received the Holy Spirit to give them courage. But they all died passing on the faith and defending it when God called each home after they received the Holy Spirit.

Praying in Tongues in Mass is not a liturgical abuse, it is pleasing to God.(besides, no one else hears it but God and I )
Daydreaming, mind wandering, fault finding, criticism, gossip, etc. during Mass are liturgical abuses.

God Bless,

gusano

You may do something in your head or that is totally inaudible to anyone else around you. There is likely nothing wrong with that. What I am talking about, for example, is when a priest holds up the host and then goes off into tongues in a voice loud enough for all to hear. I have talked to people who were present and aside from being totally shocked, were definitely pulled from their worship of God. The Mass is not about what makes me feel good, rather it is about the unconditional worship of God and when something we do interferes with our neighbors ability to do so, then somethig is wrong.

 

[Joysong]

Diane,

Could you clarify for us whether this was the practice during a regularly scheduled Sunday Mass, or during a special Charismatic Mass that was celebrated at a different time?

What I am talking about, for example, is when a priest holds up the host and then goes off into tongues in a voice loud enough for all to hear. I have talked to people who were present and aside from being totally shocked, were definitely pulled from their worship of God.

If it was the latter, most of the people who attend these Masses are not troubled, for they are used to, and well acquainted with the gift of tongues, even if they themselves have not received the gift. But if another comes to worship, unaware, they might have the reaction of shock that you mentioned. Our diocese has a priest/moderator acting as a liaison to buffer these problems and can heal the wounds of division through dialog.

If it was the former, then I agree with you.

Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Diane,

Could you clarify for us whether this was the practice during a regularly scheduled Sunday Mass, or during a special Charismatic Mass that was celebrated at a different time?

If it was the latter, most of the people who attend these Masses are not troubled, for they are used to, and well acquainted with the gift of tongues, even if they themselves have not received the gift. But if another comes to worship, unaware, they might have the reaction of shock that you mentioned. Our diocese has a priest/moderator acting as a liaison to buffer these problems and can heal the wounds of division through dialog.

If it was the former, then I agree with you.

Carole

Carole,

I am not sure whether it was a “Charismatic Mass” or not. However, that too is an extension of the problem, imho.

A Mass should be universal. There is only one Mass. I can see the same Mass in a contemporary setting or in a traditional setting, but I cannot see a “Charismatic Mass” without content being changed, if tongues are audible. A group of people may not begin the Divine Mercy Chaplet during the consecration, nor may they begin singing the Tantum Ergo when the Host is elevated. Both are well and good, but are not within the content of Holy Mass. I may not do these things as an individual either, if audible to others. But nothing prevents me from engaging in them in the privacy of my own mind. It may be my personal way of connecting with the Lord at that point of the Mass, but it should remain something that is held interiorly, at best.

There is a time and a place for the Divine Mercy Chaplet and the Tantum Ergo and it is not at the places and times I define. Likewise, setting aside any argument about legitimacy of tongues outside of Mass (not the intent of this thread), I cannot seem to reconcile it being within the Mass.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Diane,

I hear you. The only example that came to mind is what I notice as an allowed deviation from normal *content *when baptisms are celebrated within the Mass. The priest has the dispensation to modify the entrance rite and the credo. So, without knowing what is permissible as dispensations in a charismatic Mass, I think some of us just are not able to help you. Back to square one, where you may need to speak with Church hierarchy to find out.

My guess is, that since the charismatic Mass is so universally celebrated, even in other countries, there are lawful guidelines which we have not seen in document form, but which perhaps the clergy has. Is there a liaison in Detroit for charismatic worship whom you can contact?

A regular Sunday Mass should definitely be universal. But as I reflect on the differences that take place in a funeral mass or a wedding mass, I believe the Church does have legitimate content variations for each liturgy, which could also include charismatics, that is not the usual Sunday Mass of the people.

Carole

 

[porthos11]

Lux_et_veritas:

You may do something in your head or that is totally inaudible to anyone else around you. There is likely nothing wrong with that. What I am talking about, for example, is when a priest holds up the host and then goes off into tongues in a voice loud enough for all to hear. I have talked to people who were present and aside from being totally shocked, were definitely pulled from their worship of God. The Mass is not about what makes me feel good, rather it is about the unconditional worship of God and when something we do interferes with our neighbors ability to do so, then somethig is wrong.

This happened in our diocese. In fact the whole gathering was a large one of charismatic groups. When our Archbishop, Cardinal Vidal elevated the sacred Host, they all broke out into tongues. The Cardinal got so mad, placed the Host down and chastised them, telling them that the posture for Consecration was Sacred Silence. After threatening never to say Mass for them again should they disobey him, he raised the Host again, this time to chastened quiet.

 

[netmilsmom]

porthos11:

When our Archbishop, Cardinal Vidal elevated the sacred Host, they all broke out into tongues. The Cardinal got so mad, placed the Host down and chastised them, telling them that the posture for Consecration was Sacred Silence. After threatening never to say Mass for them again should they disobey him, he raised the Host again, this time to chastened quiet.

God Bless your Archbishop!!!

 

[netmilsmom]

Lux_et_veritas:

The Mass is not about what makes me feel good, rather it is about the unconditional worship of God and when something we do interferes with our neighbors ability to do so, then somethig is wrong.

The Charismatic Groups in Steubenville (a big bashion in America) are losing members while more traditional groups are growing my leaps and bounds.

This article…
msnbc.msn.com/id/9024945/site/newsweek/

confirms what I heard. I see the same traditionalism of my parish. Young happy people celebrating as their grandparents did.

If we can keep our families happy and having babies, hold on to the Liturgies we celebrate at Cyril’s, The Grotto and (I hear) St. Anastasia’s and keep our Catholics from touring of Medjugore as the Vatican has stated, this will all be a moot point in a few years. Those with this gift will keep it in their own Masses or speak quietly.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

porthos11:

This happened in our diocese. In fact the whole gathering was a large one of charismatic groups. When our Archbishop, Cardinal Vidal elevated the sacred Host, they all broke out into tongues. The Cardinal got so mad, placed the Host down and chastised them, telling them that the posture for Consecration was Sacred Silence. After threatening never to say Mass for them again should they disobey him, he raised the Host again, this time to chastened quiet.

The good Cardinal has put the right words to what I am trying to describe. When Sacred Silence is prescribed, vocals begin.

Granted, this is all well meaning. These people are not in any way, to my belief, trying to abuse the liturgy in any way. However, I believe the Holy See needs to clarify this issue, then catechize us all one way or the other. Then it is up to all to humbly accept what the CDW determines.

 

[palmas85]

porthos11:

This happened in our diocese. In fact the whole gathering was a large one of charismatic groups. When our Archbishop, Cardinal Vidal elevated the sacred Host, they all broke out into tongues. The Cardinal got so mad, placed the Host down and chastised them, telling them that the posture for Consecration was Sacred Silence. After threatening never to say Mass for them again should they disobey him, he raised the Host again, this time to chastened quiet.

Wow I can see the headlines now!!!

HOLY SPIRIT YIELDS TO ARCHBISHOPS DEMAND FOR SILENCE!!!

What a joke this whole thing has become.

From this post I have to assume that the “tongue talkers” are in full control over their speaking experiences. However, as I understand the whole thing, the Holy Spirit chooses when to descend, and those involved don’t really have any control over it, never knowing exactly whenor how it is going to happen. I have researched this through Pentecostal apolegetics and I have spoken to a number of Pentecostals that I know and everyone has confirmed this fact. So… from this post it would appear to me that most of the “tongue talking” is not “spirit filled” but nothing more than an attention grabbing antic. See how holy I am!!! I always said that Catholics should leave these sort of things to the Pentecostals because they have a lot more experience at it and are a lot better at pulling it off convincingly.

Sometimes the truth comes out in very simple ways.

 

[Atanatar]

I am a student at Franciscan University. I am not charismatic, though many people here are. The first Mass I attended here frightended me. During the Great Amen, after the first round of “Amen’s” is sung, the band, (composed of guitars, keyboard, and singers) continues to play, while the charismatic folk in the crowd burst out into whatever worship they feel. It is, frankly, loud and disruptive. You can hear things from yelling out “Jesus Jesus!” to somebody speaking in tongues. The band then finishes the Amen the way it was sung originally.

Your thoughts on this? I find the go crazy time very distracting.

Then again I have been accused of “not being open to the Spirit.” I guess we traditional (Byzantine Catholic actually) people aren’t open to the Spirit???

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

palmas85:

Wow I can see the headlines now!!!

HOLY SPIRIT YIELDS TO ARCHBISHOPS DEMAND FOR SILENCE!!!

What a joke this whole thing has become.

From this post I have to assume that the “tongue talkers” are in full control over their speaking experiences. **However, as I understand the whole thing, the Holy Spirit chooses when to descend, and those involved don’t really have any control over it, never knowing exactly whenor how it is going to happen. I have researched this through Pentecostal apolegetics and I have spoken to a number of Pentecostals that I know and everyone has confirmed this fact. So… from this post it would appear to me that most of the “tongue talking” is not “spirit filled” but nothing more than an attention grabbing antic. **See how holy I am!!! I always said that Catholics should leave these sort of things to the Pentecostals because they have a lot more experience at it and are a lot better at pulling it off convincingly.

Sometimes the truth comes out in very simple ways.

This goes to (3) in the post where I initially explained the issues I had with the practice: Ability to control until certain points of the Mass or ability to control outside of “charismatic masses”.

 

[netmilsmom]

Atanatar:

I am a student at Franciscan University. I am not charismatic, though many people here are. The first Mass I attended here frightended me. During the Great Amen, after the first round of “Amen’s” is sung, the band, (composed of guitars, keyboard, and singers) continues to play, while the charismatic folk in the crowd burst out into whatever worship they feel. It is, frankly, loud and disruptive. You can hear things from yelling out “Jesus Jesus!” to somebody speaking in tongues. The band then finishes the Amen the way it was sung originally.

Your thoughts on this? I find the go crazy time very distracting.

Then again I have been accused of “not being open to the Spirit.” I guess we traditional (Byzantine Catholic actually) people aren’t open to the Spirit???

Find this group, quick…
.
msnbc.msn.com/id/9024945/site/newsweek/

 

[Joysong]

After scrolling through almost two pages now concerning the OP’s search for information, I see that anyone with legitimate experience is refraining from posting here. Reading beteen the lines, I would suspect it is because there is little openness to hearing what they have to say, as is often the case whenever a tongues thread is begun.

For example, in Prometheum’s earlier post, backed up with solid scriptures which debunk the idea that tongues are not under a person’s control, the sense I get is that most of the opponents of tongues still to prefer to hold the opinion of those who, like themselves, have no experience of it. It’s as though nobody heard him. :ehh:

Neither Scripture, nor Tradition, nor the magisterium say that speaking in tongues is supposed to be a spontaneous thing.

Often the first occasion of speaking tongues comes as a surprise to one with that gift, but even then, it is still under one’s control. Otherwise, in vain would St. Paul have instructed:

“If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.” (1 Cor 14:27-28)

One cannot very well wait their turn if they have no ability to control whether they speak in tongues or not.

Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Carole, I can’t paste in your comment without going over here because I’m going to paste something. But, not before addressing the issue of spontaneity.

As I said earlier, it is my belief, that one cannot will an episode of tongues any more than one can will the BVM to appear (hence, one of the problems I have with Medjugorje is that the seers have gotten to a point of having “gospa on demand” where ever they go).

Maybe spontaneous is the wrong word. From what I have read about true tongues is that it takes place in more of an ecstasy. From my standpoint, to move into such a state requires prompting from the Holy Spirit at a given moment. In other words, humans cannot turn on the switch. Now, that is my personal opinion. Having said that, I found this in New Advent (Catholic Encyclopedia) on tongues and it addresses the lack of interpreters, babbling, being barely audible, etc., and differentiates being in ecstasy. One is driven by human emotion the other by the Holy Spirit. I highlight some key points, but the entire article is good and can be found here:

newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm

Corinthian Abuses (I Corinthians 14 passim).—Medieval and modern writers wrongly take it for granted that the charism existed permanently at Corinth—as it did nowhere else—and that St. Paul, in commending the gift to the Corinthians, therewith gave his guaranty that the characteristics of Corinthian glossolaly were those of the gift itself. Traditional writers in overlooking this point place St. Luke at variance with St. Paul, and attribute to the charism properties so contrary as to make it inexplicable and prohibitively mysterious. **There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of “tongues” a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous (12:3). The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift was intended (14:22, 23, 26). The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious spirit (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God (15). **What today purports to be the “gift of tongues” at certain Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle’s counsel to do all things “decently, and according to order” (40).

 

[Joysong]

Hi Diane,

I was not directing my post to you personally, but to simply say that I do not generally see any openness in the many posters. There’s an old saying, “Do not confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.”
That’s ok, for that is their right to an opinion. But it does not give you an alternate base with which to weigh the matter. It seemed to me that you may have wanted an opposite opinion in order that you may no longer sit on the fence with the one you lean towards now.

As you know, the learned moderator at the “other forum” has warned many times that New Advent dates back to 1935. The CCR began in the late 60’s, so I would look for a few more substantial resources before adhering steadfastly to what one reads there, just as a second or third resource.

There was one alternate opinion, as expressed here by Prometheum, and nobody seemed to value his insight, potential experience, or possible research and learning. The door was not even slightly ajar.

To summarize, I think it would be best to explore solid writings from eminent authors on the subject who can give more explicit background, theology, experience, and help you resolve the Lord’s inspiration and come to a decision as to whether or not to go to the CDW. Amazon should have several of these books, and maybe you have already read some of them to come to this point.

There are people who claim to have the gift, and would be glad to share their views on it, but I have seen them torn to shreds elsewhere, and see no reason for them to put their heads on the chopping block in continual frustration.

I’m no help to you at all, because I have not received the gift. But if the general public learned that I had a different one, I would expect profound opposition and disbelief in its authenticity. That’s just the nature of man, I’m afraid. Maybe it frightens me to be wiser than the Holy Spirit, who is the Divine Author of all gifts, and become a judge of His works, so I leave it up to the Church, who does have the power to judge on my behalf. The only thing Christ has asked of us is to love.

I feel inwardly that there is generally little acceptance of charismatics, and I was happy to see that you have full belief in their sincerity. After all, if it is possible they are misguided in any way, they are still Christ’s “bruised reeds” and “smouldering wicks” whom we cannot extinguish or put out from the Mystical Body because they are “different.”

The deep prayer you have agonized with for so long says to me that God will either lead you to do something positive in this regard, or else to convict you that they are truly exercising one of the Spirit’s gifts. I have no doubt you will come to a good conclusion in the end. :clapping:

Oh my, I went overboard on my word limit, I’m afraid.

Kind regards,
Carole