Tonight, I went to the EF for the first time

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The priest prays on our behalf… we don’t all have to say the prayer together for it to work. To me, it’s more like the religion of the Hebrews.
What is? The TLM as I described it? And what “religion of the Hebrews”?

I ask this because one of the things that impresses me about Jewish liturgy (Conservative or Orthodox, though I have more experience of the former) is the way everyone participates *in Hebrew. *

And one of my *huge *problems with Roman Catholicism, especially in its more traditional forms, is the idea that the Liturgy is about prayers “working” in the first place. This leads to a liturgical minimalism–that’s how we in the Western Church got oddities like baptism with a tiny amount of water and laypeople not regularly receiving communion in both kinds. Why do more than what is required for validity? This also led to the collapse after Vatican II of which traditionalists complain so bitterly. When you have been taught for centuries to think in terms of what “works,” and the Church starts giving the impression that much less is needed to “work” than you thought, then naturally you’re going to give up on a lot of traditional beliefs and practices. This attitude therefore leads almost inevitably either to legalism (as, with all due respect, appears to be the case among Traditionalists) or to minimalism as among so many post-VatII Catholics.

Edwin
 
Our EF masses are offered and assisted in dialog. The faithful are responsible for all responses in the 1962 Daily Missal. Our priest insists that Latin responses are spoken [in low mass] or sung [in the Sunday High Mass] distinctly and audibly by all in attendance…
I would very much like to visit such a Mass.

I did attend a glorious Latin dialogue Mass in Munich using the Novus Ordo. The sermon was also excellent. I believe the parish was run by the Dominicans, though it was originally built by the Theatines (I don’t know if there are any Theatines any more).

Edwin
 
The missals I have checked have “Hic genuflectitur,” which, if I remember my third conjugation verbs, means essentially “Here he is knee-bent.” It’s definitely in the singular. Likewise the Confiteor has “percutit sibi pectus ter,” which is “he strikes himself on the breast thrice.”

I’m partly kidding here, of course; I just know it will make some people’s heads explode to compare the unrubrical practice of congregational genuflection to the unrubrical practice of congregational orans. And I’m willing to have somebody point out to me some legitimate place where the congregation is directed to do these actions, maybe I’m missing it.

It’s funny, in a way, because people’s natural desire to participate in the Confiteor, the Credo, and the Last Gospel only serves to emphasize why changes to the rite were seen as so desirable. You can repeat, as people do, that the priest and the ministers say the Confiteor on behalf of the congregation, but why shouldn’t the faithful participate? And why on Earth should the priest whisper the Last Gospel to himself, while a church full of people half read along and half glance up to try to time their genuflection correctly?

I don’t want it to turn into a puppet mass with a rock band, mind you. But I hope the people who think they’re being extra-faithful by striking their breast and genuflecting realize that all they’re doing is updating the TLM on the fly to increase congregational participation. Gasp! Horror!
Hi Mark. I have this missal, which is pretty legit, I imagine, and very common. In it, right above ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST in the Last Gospel it says (here all genuflect).

Likewise, in the Credo, before ET INCARNÁTUS EST… it says (here all kneel).

However in the Confiteor, it just says (here strike breast three times), which I take to refer to the priest, due to the absence of “all”.

So I don’t know that people are updating the TLM in that sense.
 
Hi Mark. I have this missal, which is pretty legit, I imagine, and very common. In it, right above ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST in the Last Gospel it says (here all genuflect).

Likewise, in the Credo, before ET INCARNÁTUS EST… it says (here all kneel).

However in the Confiteor, it just says (here strike breast three times), which I take to refer to the priest, due to the absence of “all”.

So I don’t know that people are updating the TLM in that sense.
The missal seems to be the one that is available at many chapels/churches that offer the EF. Don’t forget the Confiteor is said twice. Once by the priest, then by the servers. The priest is the only one to strike breast when he says that prayer. The servers do it when they say theirs. If it is a dialog Mass, the people would while saying it with the servers. At non dialog Masses, I have seen members of the congregation striking their breasts when the servers do it. But I do wonder if ,at nondialog Masses, it is just a private devotion of some membersof the congregation.
Edited to add that at any EF Mass I have attended, the people have genuflected at the appropriate times during the Creed and last gospel. EF Masses I have attended have been in my own state, Massachusetts, New York, and Washington, D.C.
 
But, to be perfectly honest, I’d rather sit in my room (or in the church in front of the Blessed Sacrament) and have the time to meditate on the prayers, rather than having someone else rushing them along.
I hope you weren’t serious in writing this.
 
I really think she is serious. It’ll take a while for her to grasp the philosophy of the Mass. That its not just a time to read some prayers or that the priest is there to “lead us” in a prayer.
Rather that the priest is offering the prayers to God on our behalf.
 
Rather a miracle is being performed through the priest, is what I think everyone means to say.

Reading the prayers of the Mass is just that: reading the prayers of the Mass. But it is not participating in the Mass and it certainly not receiving the sacramental grace conferred from the Mass.

I would advise the OP to go ahead and read the prayers on her own time so that, when she returns to the EF, she will be more familiar with them and less curious about what they say, and will be better able to turn her attention to what is going on on the altar and in the sanctuary.

There’s definitely something to be said for following along, but we have to remember that the focal point of the Mass is the Eucharist and the sacrificial nature of the whole celebration. The exclusive nature of the prayers and rituals can remind us of the reality of the “great Other” which will always be, to a certain extent, foreign to us.
 
Hi Mark. I have this missal, which is pretty legit, I imagine, and very common. In it, right above ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST in the Last Gospel it says (here all genuflect).

Likewise, in the Credo, before ET INCARNÁTUS EST… it says (here all kneel).

However in the Confiteor, it just says (here strike breast three times), which I take to refer to the priest, due to the absence of “all”.

So I don’t know that people are updating the TLM in that sense.
I thought I remembered that it was in that booklet; that’s the one they have available when I go. But that just an unofficial missalette published by some group out of Glenview, Illinois, and as best I can tell the “all” language is just made up. It certainly doesn’t appear in either of the editiones typicae I’ve looked at, which are the 1894 and 1962. Maybe the instruction or permission is given in some document other than the Missale Romanum, but I haven’t seen it.

It’s no surprise that people want to participate. So maybe this is just what “organic development” looks like.
 
I really think she is serious. It’ll take a while for her to grasp the philosophy of the Mass. That its not just a time to read some prayers or that the priest is there to “lead us” in a prayer.
Rather that the priest is offering the prayers to God on our behalf.
You’re right, I am serious.

If the priest is offering the prayers to God on his behalf, then what does it matter what I do? Why do I even need to be there?🤷
 
I thought I remembered that it was in that booklet; that’s the one they have available when I go. But that just an unofficial missalette published by some group out of Glenview, Illinois, and as best I can tell the “all” language is just made up. It certainly doesn’t appear in either of the editiones typicae I’ve looked at, which are the 1894 and 1962. Maybe the instruction or permission is given in some document other than the Missale Romanum, but I haven’t seen it.

It’s no surprise that people want to participate. So maybe this is just what “organic development” looks like.
Mark, there are no rubrics at all for the faithful in the missal before 1965 at the earliest, but I don’t think it was before 1969. That doesn’t mean that if they do anything they are breaking the rubrics. It means they can basically do anything and not break the rubrics, keeping in mind the SRC decrees. An interesting point regarding the laity that received a lot of attention from the SRC was the abuse of the laity sitting in choir or in the sanctuary. This was forbidden no fewer than 9 times, I believe, receiving more attention, perhaps, than any other question in the history of the SRC. After asking multiple times per century for a little while, I think all requests finally dried up by the middle of the 18th century. All of the requests explicitly or implicitly had in mind those of royal or noble lineage.
 
It would, except that the people participate in the prayers.
Mark, I don’t quite fully agree here. Not everyone around me at the OF responds nor has to. We are only encouraged to move our mouths in unison, if that’s the only thing that’s considered “participating.” There are many at the EF who do respond with the “Et cum Spiritu tuo” and the other simple responses now. I admit there is still hesitation but we’re slowly coming around. 🙂
 
Mark, I don’t quite fully agree here. Not everyone around me at the OF responds nor has to. We are only encouraged to move our mouths in unison, if that’s the only thing that’s considered “participating.” There are many at the EF who do respond with the “Et cum Spiritu tuo” and the other simple responses now. I admit there is still hesitation but we’re slowly coming around. 🙂
Yes, but I was thinking more about your previous comment that it’s just as true in the OF as the EF that if the priest is offering prayers on our behalf we don’t need to be there. Take the Confiteor for instance. As I interpret the TLM, the priest and servitors say the Confiteor for themselves only, as part of the process of purifying themselves to offer the sacrifice. Others interpret it as being offered on behalf of the people (though I find that interpretation strained at best, and the people who strike their breasts surely must not believe that the ministers’ doing so sufficiently covers it). The only thing that’s for sure is that the people are not offering it themselves – sure, if you can read, have a missal, and know enough Latin, you can offer God a Confiteor at the same time that the priest does, striking your breast and everything, but you could do the same while watching a Mass on TV, there’s nothing about being there for that prayer that seems to make much of a difference.

That’s no defense of people who show up to an OF Mass and do not participate in the prayers (or of priests who omit the penitential rite). Yet I find that something is added when the faithful can offer this prayer in unison, corporately, rather than as a group of of individuals saying the same prayer silently next to each other. The Mass is supposed to be the Church’s corporate act of worship, and the corpus of the Church is the faithful – this is why it would be hugely inferior if we just “prayed the Mass” at home and then stopped by church to pick up Communion.

And it’s funny that you mention people at the EF just now starting to say “Et cum spiritu tuo.” When I’m at the OF and I say “And also with you,” mentally I’m thinking “Et cum spiritu tuo.” 🙂
 
As I interpret the TLM, the priest and servitors say the Confiteor for themselves only, as part of the process of purifying themselves to offer the sacrifice. Others interpret it as being offered on behalf of the people (though I find that interpretation strained at best, and the people who strike their breasts surely must not believe that the ministers’ doing so sufficiently covers it).
One of the first criticisms of the New Mass I heard was that the priest recites “…our sacrifice…” while the old Mass distinguishes between the sacrifice of the priest and the sacrifice of those present. In other words, the priest in persona Christi offers the actual sacrifice. Perhaps a subtle difference but one which seems to set the tone for the roles played by the priest and the community.
Yet I find that something is added when the faithful can offer this prayer in unison, corporately, rather than as a group of of individuals saying the same prayer silently next to each other.
Okay, but how loud should you or the group have to speak in order to be heard by God? And if I don’t know the prayer or the Mass is in Vietnamese, for example, should I just mumble? (We can’t assume everyone in Church knows the prayer, a position I find myself in frequently if I don’t have a missal.) I would hope my “participation” at an Vietnamese Mass counts as much as when I attend an English Mass.
And it’s funny that you mention people at the EF just now starting to say “Et cum spiritu tuo.” When I’m at the OF and I say “And also with you,” mentally I’m thinking “Et cum spiritu tuo.” 🙂
👍 I think it’s a safe bet they won’t change “Et cum spiritu tuo.” 🙂
 
Mark, I don’t quite fully agree here. Not everyone around me at the OF responds nor has to. We are only encouraged to move our mouths in unison, if that’s the only thing that’s considered “participating.” There are many at the EF who do respond with the “Et cum Spiritu tuo” and the other simple responses now. I admit there is still hesitation but we’re slowly coming around. 🙂
Ok, what constitutes participating in the EF?
 
Ok, what constitutes participating in the EF?
As in any Mass, participation is always primarily internal. Our Lady gives us this example on Calvary. A growth in the interior life is a more important end of the holy Sacrifice than is (more or less accurately, usually less) pronouncing the syllables to the responses.
 
Full attention to and focus on the Mass?
I think it’s important to develop a definition of “active participation” that can’t be fully satisfied by someone watching on TV. In other words, if we define the concept down too far, it loses meaning and is no longer useful in discussing the liturgy.

Part of the problem, I think, is the notion people have that the faithful should “fully and actively participate” in every part of the Mass. Since it’s obvious that we participate in a different way when we pray the Our Father out loud than when we listen to the priest confect the Eucharist, this leads those people to conclude that either (a) just listening and paying attention is sufficient for full and active participation, so nothing extra is happening during the Our Father that wouldn’t be happening if we all just thought about it silently, or (b) the Our Father is the right model, so we need to get people involved more in saying the Eucharistic Prayer, that sort of thing.

Both of these views, seem to me to be in error. The people simply don’t fully participate in confecting the Eucharist. The just don’t. If they were all texting and listening to their iPods, or if they all got up and walked out, it would still happen in exactly the same way. The most we can say is that by paying attention and praying along they can participate to the fullness of their station.

After all, if sitting and paying attention is as full and active as you can get, then what’s the priest moving his mouth and waving his hands for? Sit down, shut up, and quit distracting me from my full active participation, will ya?

All of this is fine by me. But it does mean that “full participation” is defined by the structure of each actor’s role in the liturgy, not the other way around. That seems to me to be the same way the Holy Father understands the concept in his writings. So when you sit and listen intently to the readings, you’re participating fully because that’s how the liturgy defines the extent of your role: to sit there and listen.

The problem, then, comes because you can no longer use “full participation” to shoot down people’s desire to have a more active role in the liturgy. “I’d like to do more.” --“You’re already doing all that the liturgy defines to be your role, so you’re participating fully.” --“Yes, I know; that’s why I want you to change the liturgy, so that the definition of my proper role includes more.” And what that means is that there are no easy answers. If the liturgy defines your role as sitting there while the ministers quietly say the Kyrie, then you participate fully by sitting there. If the liturgy says you should respond alternatim with the celebrant, then that’s what you do. You can’t decide between these two models by saying you want the one that allows the laity to participate fully; they both do.

What about “actively,” though; does that give us a criterion to decide by?

If you think that I participated as actively in Bp. Slattery’s Mass at the National Shrine by thinking the Our Father while watching it on TV as I did by chanting the Our Father out loud together with a churchfull of people at Mass this past Sunday, I must say I disagree. If “thinking along” while watching on TV is as active as it gets, then why bother assembling a group of people for the liturgy at all? No, I don’t believe it.

There are different levels of activity in participation, and I don’t think that the laity must be fully active in everything. And they really can’t, unless they’re writing the prayers and confecting the Eucharist. That’s okay, though. Screw “fully active” participation, it’s a myth and always has been. Only the must utter radicals (non-Catholic) could possibly support it if they knew what it was. Instead, they like the sound of the phrase, but agree with you and me about the implementation, so they misdefine the phrase to mean, “Pretty much what we have now.”

So if someone says, “I’d like to participate more actively in the Collect,” the answer can’t be, “That’s impossible, you can’t get more active than listening to it, which is what you already do” because it the person got to write the Collect then go up to the front and recite it for everyone, that simply would be a more active role. Instead, you actually have to do some of the mental heavy lifting and explain why the laity’s proper role is listening to the priest recite the Collect, and no more.

Rant over. My ultimate point is that either (1) full, active participation is a meaningless platitude that means “paying attention,” in which case it can have no effect on the shape of the liturgy, since if you can fully pay attention to prayers you can’t hear while the priest is facing away from you then you can pay attention to anything, or (2) we need to fess up and admit that people can fully participate by filling their prescribed role, which in many cases will not be fully active, but in any event (3) people could always be given a more active role in the liturgy than they have – like developing and running it – but we’re not going to give it to them, and we actually need to come up with structural and theological explanations as to why that is.
 
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