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b_justb
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The Republicans became Republicans over the issue of slavery when they broke away from the Whigs. Maybe a new political party is in the offing, one with a much more seriously Conservative Political view.
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bones_IV
Guest
The Democrats are the party of moral relativism and the Republicans are pro-life w/ exceptions. We just need to pray that God’s will be done and not man’s.The Republicans became Republicans over the issue of slavery when they broke away from the Whigs. Maybe a new political party is in the offing, one with a much more seriously Conservative Political view.
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brockmac
Guest
As a Catholic and a Republican, I start my approach to this issue as I do most issues: With a respect for the dignity of human beings created in the image and likeness of the Almighty. This post is a bit on the long side, but my beliefs on this issue cannot be condensed to a few trite sound bites.
Under the current sitution, you have millions of people who have no documentation and no legal right to live or work in the United States. Yet, they are living here, and they are working here. Their employers know who they are. The employers know that these people can be underpaid, subjected to poor or even unsafe working conditions, etc. because these illeagal workers have no ability to protest to the government for fear of being sent back to their homeland. In essence this gives industry a blank check to exploit a group of people as second class people, or even sub-human in some cases. Yet as bad as these conditions are, they are apparently better than the conditions these people have fled or they would go back the way they came.
Also under the current system, it is so time consuming and expensive to get a work visa, that it is cheaper for a person to pay a coyote to smuggle them across and then take their chances with fake social security cards, etc. This is even more deplorable than the above situation because these coyotes (actually human smugglers) treat these people as commodities, and think nothing of their lives or welfare, as they are paid in advance for the trip.
In speaking with a number of other Republicans, I frequently get the response that the illeagal immigrants bring these problems on themselves by chosing to break our immigration laws. To a degree, I cannot argue against this. They do in fact choose to enter illeagally and choose to stay even though they live in constant fear of any interaction with law enforcement and are treated poorly by employers. My response is that our immigration policy is not adequate to deal with the need for unskilled labor in this country, nor the desire of people in Juarez looking across at El Paso and wanting a better life for themselves and their families. I also like to point out that the regularization of the underground workforce will drive up wages for not just the immigrants, but for citizens as well, since citizens will no longer be forced to compete with a labor segment that by default, accepts wages well below the market value.
To me any solution to the problem has to do a number of things.
Under the current sitution, you have millions of people who have no documentation and no legal right to live or work in the United States. Yet, they are living here, and they are working here. Their employers know who they are. The employers know that these people can be underpaid, subjected to poor or even unsafe working conditions, etc. because these illeagal workers have no ability to protest to the government for fear of being sent back to their homeland. In essence this gives industry a blank check to exploit a group of people as second class people, or even sub-human in some cases. Yet as bad as these conditions are, they are apparently better than the conditions these people have fled or they would go back the way they came.
Also under the current system, it is so time consuming and expensive to get a work visa, that it is cheaper for a person to pay a coyote to smuggle them across and then take their chances with fake social security cards, etc. This is even more deplorable than the above situation because these coyotes (actually human smugglers) treat these people as commodities, and think nothing of their lives or welfare, as they are paid in advance for the trip.
In speaking with a number of other Republicans, I frequently get the response that the illeagal immigrants bring these problems on themselves by chosing to break our immigration laws. To a degree, I cannot argue against this. They do in fact choose to enter illeagally and choose to stay even though they live in constant fear of any interaction with law enforcement and are treated poorly by employers. My response is that our immigration policy is not adequate to deal with the need for unskilled labor in this country, nor the desire of people in Juarez looking across at El Paso and wanting a better life for themselves and their families. I also like to point out that the regularization of the underground workforce will drive up wages for not just the immigrants, but for citizens as well, since citizens will no longer be forced to compete with a labor segment that by default, accepts wages well below the market value.
To me any solution to the problem has to do a number of things.
- It has to secure the border. I fully recognize that however much compassion I might have for the poor and downtrodden of Mexico and further south, if a Mexican can sneak accross to find work, a terrorist can sneak accross to blow up the mall I shop in. In fact the one beef I have with the current proposal is the fact that it uses a meager 350 miles of fence as a trigger for the other provisions. I would rather see the entire 850 called for in last year’s legislation as a trigger point.
- It must provide for a reasonable mechanism to allow people who want to come here to work to do so within the law and with proper background checks. My understanding of the proposed legislation is that it does this.
- It must deal with those who are already here. While I wish that people had not come here illegally, I understand their reasons, and cannot honestly say with certainty, that faced with similar circumstances, that I would not do the same myself. The proposed plan does require that those who are convicted of serious crimes (apart from their violation of our border) should be repatriated, which is a good thing. I have a difficult time making a criminal of someone who moved here to get a job where he can earn enough money to support his family. These people are not likely to go home regardless of what we do. Given that, I would much rather have them documented and have their backgrounds checked than not.
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rlg94086
Guest
I agree with you brockmac, but we are in the minority of our party. It’s “too bad” that if they succeed, it will be business as usual. The phantom enforcement that is being called for won’t work under the current laws and situation, but no one seems willing to accept that:
I happen to side with Senatory Kyl (a solid conservative btw), who realizes this legislation is a reasonable compromise and will accomplish much more than anything else they could get passed.
“Too bad” it probably won’t pass, and nothing will change. BTW…if Peggy Noonan is right and we have fractured as a party, then we have lots of Democratic leadership our way in all three branches. I don’t care who is blamed for that, but I don’t think Republicans are going to enjoy the near future.
- Current law is “catch and release,” which is such a joke that some illegal aliens actually “get caught” right before the holidays, so they can have a free bus ride home.
- Current law requires employers to be presented with ID that is easily faked. The employer has no responsibility to ensure that the ID is valid. If it is found to be a forgery, the employer has no repercusions because they can claim ignorance.
I happen to side with Senatory Kyl (a solid conservative btw), who realizes this legislation is a reasonable compromise and will accomplish much more than anything else they could get passed.
“Too bad” it probably won’t pass, and nothing will change. BTW…if Peggy Noonan is right and we have fractured as a party, then we have lots of Democratic leadership our way in all three branches. I don’t care who is blamed for that, but I don’t think Republicans are going to enjoy the near future.
As a Catholic and a Republican…
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KathleenElsie
Guest
In the end I can not support this bill. Better then nothing in a rush is worse then doing nothing as far as I am concerned. We need to fix the broken immigration situation, not put another band aid on it.…
I am also a Catholic Republican and I differ in some of your opinions.
To me any solution to the problem has to do a number of things.
With this I agree it should be the entire 850 miles. We need to close both borders to be fair and safe. Just look at the man with TB this weak that came through the Norther Border.
- It has to secure the border. I fully recognize that however much compassion I might have for the poor and downtrodden of Mexico and further south, if a Mexican can sneak across to find work, a terrorist can sneak across to blow up the mall I shop in. In fact the one beef I have with the current proposal is the fact that it uses a meager 350 miles of fence as a trigger for the other provisions. I would rather see the entire 850 called for in last year’s legislation as a trigger point.
Only if there is a need that can not be filled with Americans that want and need the jobs at a fair living wage. This should not mean that American workers are forced to take lower pay for the job they do.
- It must provide for a reasonable mechanism to allow people who want to come here to work to do so within the law and with proper background checks. My understanding of the proposed legislation is that it does this.
Background checks and the potential of wrongful information are high. Look at the Michigan Police officer that is actually an illegal that took his cousins name. Many of these people are good people. But the fact remains that they have broken our laws and in many cases stolen our identities to stay here. (I am one of millions that have had my information used)
- It must deal with those who are already here. While I wish that people had not come here illegally, I understand their reasons, and cannot honestly say with certainty, that faced with similar circumstances, that I would not do the same myself. The proposed plan does require that those who are convicted of serious crimes (apart from their violation of our border) should be repatriated, which is a good thing. I have a difficult time making a criminal of someone who moved here to get a job where he can earn enough money to support his family. These people are not likely to go home regardless of what we do. Given that, I would much rather have them documented and have their backgrounds checked than not.
The exporting of American jobs to Mexico (NAFTA) was to change the “need” to jump the border.
In the end, I do support the proposed policy, because it is better than doing nothing and represents a marked improvement in respect for the dignity of both previous (illegal) immigrants and future immigrants. I will not make the perfect the enemy of the good.
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brockmac
Guest
Kathleen,
A few quick replies.
Only if there is a need that can not be filled with Americans that want and need the jobs at a fair living wage. This should not mean that American workers are forced to take lower pay for the job they do.
Our unemployment rate has been quite low for the last 20+ years. Very few, if any Americans are losing jobs to immigrant labor. Labor being shipped over seas is another matter, But that is beyond the scope of this thread. If we provide a reasonable means for people to come here with proper identification, background checks, and job skills that suit our marketplace, I can’t see how that can be anything but good.
Background checks and the potential of wrongful information are high. Look at the Michigan Police officer that is actually an illegal that took his cousins name. Many of these people are good people. But the fact remains that they have broken our laws and in many cases stolen our identities to stay here. (I am one of millions that have had my information used)
I too have been a victim of Identiy theft. I do not know who it was that did it, and fortunately it was caught before they could do any real damage. That said, as I understand it, the commission of any felonies or misdameaners (apart from illegal entry) would make a person inelligible for a Z or a Y visa and result in a one way ticket home. Having those who are truely here for the purpose of earning an honest living would be given “tamper proof” ID cards with biometric information encoded on them. This would give employers a chance to make sure that they are in compliance with the law, and give them no excuse for hiring illegals, justifying stiffer penalties to them. If the penalties are stiff enough, they won’t risk it, the illegals who do not apply for the special visas will have no opportunity to work and will likely be forced to head home.
I believe we both want what is best for our country and are trying our best to apply our Catholic faith to the subject. We both want a secure border, and I suspect, a humane and just way of dealing with the immigration issues our country faces. Let us hope that our leaders have the same intentions and work toward that end.
I will close by thanking you for your civility and charity in this discussion. I have engaged in similar exchanges elsewhere, and as you can imagine, some of the replies have, to uderstate it, been less than charitable.
In the end, I pray that His will be done, and if I am mistaken, that He will lead me to understanding.
.
A few quick replies.
Only if there is a need that can not be filled with Americans that want and need the jobs at a fair living wage. This should not mean that American workers are forced to take lower pay for the job they do.
Our unemployment rate has been quite low for the last 20+ years. Very few, if any Americans are losing jobs to immigrant labor. Labor being shipped over seas is another matter, But that is beyond the scope of this thread. If we provide a reasonable means for people to come here with proper identification, background checks, and job skills that suit our marketplace, I can’t see how that can be anything but good.
Background checks and the potential of wrongful information are high. Look at the Michigan Police officer that is actually an illegal that took his cousins name. Many of these people are good people. But the fact remains that they have broken our laws and in many cases stolen our identities to stay here. (I am one of millions that have had my information used)
I too have been a victim of Identiy theft. I do not know who it was that did it, and fortunately it was caught before they could do any real damage. That said, as I understand it, the commission of any felonies or misdameaners (apart from illegal entry) would make a person inelligible for a Z or a Y visa and result in a one way ticket home. Having those who are truely here for the purpose of earning an honest living would be given “tamper proof” ID cards with biometric information encoded on them. This would give employers a chance to make sure that they are in compliance with the law, and give them no excuse for hiring illegals, justifying stiffer penalties to them. If the penalties are stiff enough, they won’t risk it, the illegals who do not apply for the special visas will have no opportunity to work and will likely be forced to head home.
I believe we both want what is best for our country and are trying our best to apply our Catholic faith to the subject. We both want a secure border, and I suspect, a humane and just way of dealing with the immigration issues our country faces. Let us hope that our leaders have the same intentions and work toward that end.
I will close by thanking you for your civility and charity in this discussion. I have engaged in similar exchanges elsewhere, and as you can imagine, some of the replies have, to uderstate it, been less than charitable.
In the end, I pray that His will be done, and if I am mistaken, that He will lead me to understanding.
.
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