Too Catholic?

[odile53]

I just don’t dignify such remarks, gossip, slander, etc. with a verbal response at all. And as far as the bigoted or salacious jokes are concerned, I deadpan those, too. It really doesn’t have anything to do with being Catholic, or even Christian, although I am Catholic. It’s really about dealing with others ethically, and even atheists are capable of that. There is no world religion that says any of this stuff is desirable, or even okay. These folks don’t need education, or even “charitable fraternal correction.” I find that when I’m in such a situation, what’s really needed is for me to set and enforce a boundary. Hence the stare. It may be genetic on my part (of an Iroquoian nation on my mother’s side.) In any case, on the reservation where I was born, people called it “the Indian stare.” And it could freeze water.

You can practice deadpanning in a mirror: Gaze at a point just above your eyebrows in the mirror, and keep your face absolutely expressionless. When you’re in a social situation where one of these “uglies” occurs, pick out that same point on the perpetrator’s face and gaze at it. You don’t have to force yourself not to blink. Just the stare is enough.

They always get the message and knock it off.

It’s nice, like in the case of the boss of one of the responders, if you can just walk away, or be nice in these situations. Maybe it’s because I have a rather strong personality, that just doesn’t work for me. But the stare does.

I think I’m going to try to stand up for the absent person who is the butt of some gossip the next time I’m in such a situation, though. It seems even more of a definitive boundary. And the next such opportunity should arise about twenty minutes after I arrive back to work Monday morning after a two-week vacation.

 

[MissMichal]

I have, on a few occasions, told someone “boy, I hope you don’t talk about me like this when I’m not around…” in response to gossip. But more often I just slip into it. Good on you for sticking with it. As for the remark that you sin too, you can respond that you do indeed and you’re trying to get better, starting with gossip, and you would appreciate some help.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

So, my question is: can I respond in a different way so that they don’t take the attitude that I’m being “holier than thou”, or do I just have to brazen it out in order to be faithful?
How do you decline participation in sin without appearing to condemn the one who chooses to participate? Is that even possible?

In my experience, a response such as yours makes people realise they are doing something wrong, and nobody likes that. That’s why you get such comments that suggest that you are the weird one with a problem.

Thing is, we can’t be faithful and at the same time get approval from those who don’t share our faith and our values. I think that being honest like you are is a good thing, because you are not watering down your beliefs in order to make people feel comfortable when engaging in immoral behaviour. Saying openly that you don’t want to gossip might get them to think about what they are doing. If they think you are too Catholic that is their problem, not yours.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

In my experience, a response such as yours makes people realise they are doing something wrong, and nobody likes that. That’s why you get such comments that suggest that you are the weird one with a problem.

Thing is, we can’t be faithful and at the same time get approval from those who don’t share our faith and our values. I think that being honest like you are is a good thing, because you are not watering down your beliefs in order to make people feel comfortable when engaging in immoral behaviour. Saying openly that you don’t want to gossip might get them to think about what they are doing. If they think you are too Catholic that is their problem, not yours.

I hear what you’re saying, but I think it depends on what our goals are. If our goal is to avoid doing something against our beliefs, then I agree that we can plainly state that we have beliefs that what they are doing is wrong, and let the chips fall where they may. There is nothing wrong with that and if someone wants to do that I say go for it. But what if we want to go beyond merely “protecting ourselves” and try to seize this opportunity to win those pathetic creatures (the least of Christ’s brothers, maybe) over for the Lord? If we say things that we know is going to put them off, particularly when they aren’t sensitive enough to care about what I believe regarding their behavior, then what have we gained in that area? It seems to me that’s kind of what the OP was asking about.

There are several passages from St. Paul that were very eye-opening when I first read them, because I can’t recall ever hearing a Catholic priest (or other Christian for that matter) addressing them from the pulpit. For that matter, when I bring them up in these forums, I normally don’t get any comments about them when I think they are worthy of hearty discussion. They changed my whole outlook on how to behave around people who did not share my beliefs. I no longer feel it is my Solemn Duty to demonstrate to others that I am Catholic and they aren’t. At least not until I gain their respect. I’m sure others can dig up scriptures that tell another side of the story, but consider this one:

1 Cor 9:19-23
Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law–though I myself am not under the law–to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law–though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ–to win over those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.

Basically I see this as sort of a “shrewd” way of winning respect and friendship. Kind of like serving a salad and appetizer before we get to the Main Course of our beliefs, and the Dessert of conversion? It’s a stealth operation – he conforms to those around him to “stay under the radar” so he can get close enough to them in order to win them over. If you have something to say about their behavior, are they more likely to listen to you if you lecture them right away, or if you first spend some time letting them get to know you (without encouraging their sin of course) so they know you’re not just another pompous religious person trying to tell them they are on the path to hell unless they become like you? If we are fishers of men, treat them like catfish. Give them plenty of time with the bait before trying to set the hook and reel them in.

When I was in college and away from home for the first time, I had quite a hiatus from Church for several years, and I can opine with a great deal of certainty that few sinners are going to respond well to chastisement by a “religious person.” In college I sat with friends who would watch a TV preacher with the sound off and the stereo on, and blow smoke toward the screen. It didn’t matter what religion they were, but Jimmy Swaggart was one favorite of theirs because he liked to point his finger at the camera and get really stern looks on his face.

Matt 10:16
“Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.”

I like the “and simple as doves” part. What could be more simple than to “fail to notice” that they are on the path to hell, at least until you’ve gotten their attention?

Similarly, when we are invited to someone’s place who doesn’t believe the same things about what to eat as we do, we eat in a way that is compatible with their conscience, not ours (1 Cor 10). I’m sure many will disagree with this, but I was told by a (very conservative) priest that I should eat what I am served if I am the guest of a non-Catholic on a Lenten Friday. Better, of course, would be to change the date, but if I’m in that situation, that was his advice.

Compared to what many of us were taught when we were younger, I figured these remarks would be controversial and draw lots of fire, but for some reason I almost never get anyone to engage in a discussion on them. Once in a while somebody pulls out a writing that appears to contradict them, but I’ve never heard a logical rebuttal of the way I’m interpreting these particular scriptures.

Alan

 

[Ad_Altare_Dei_1]

I’m trying to live my faith very consistently. This includes declining participation in gossip and lies or not laughing at jokes that I feel are at someone’s expense, even when instigated by someone I love (my husband or sister, for example). I generally decline either by simply not commenting, or if asked a question directly, I say something like “I’m sorry, but I feel like this is gossip or dangerously close to gossip, so I’d rather not talk about it.” and then I try to introduce a new subject, if possible.

I have gotten everything from an eye roll to the accusation that I’m “too Catholic” or that I don’t “have to be Catholic all the time.” Sometimes the person simply says that I need to get off my high horse and realize that I sin too.

I haven’t read all the comment so maybe I’m repeating something, but…

You possess the courage and grace that I do not. I often feel the need to not laugh at disrespectful/crude jokes or ask people to stop using our Lord’s name in vain in many different ways, and many other un-Christian things. But I am weak. Sometimes I find it easier to go along and “save face” simply to have/keep secular friends. It’s terrible, I know. It’s one of several crosses I bear.

Do not be discouraged. Keep doing what you’re doing because you’re doing it for love of God. I wish I could be as strong as you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I haven’t read all the comment so maybe I’m repeating something, but…

You possess the courage and grace that I do not. I often feel the need to not laugh at disrespectful/crude jokes or ask people to stop using our Lord’s name in vain in many different ways, and many other un-Christian things. But I am weak. Sometimes I find it easier to go along and “save face” simply to have/keep secular friends. It’s terrible, I know. It’s one of several crosses I bear.

Do not be discouraged. Keep doing what you’re doing because you’re doing it for love of God. I wish I could be as strong as you.

If you join in by supplying more of and fueling the gossip, crude jokes, etc. then I see your point, but don’t sell yourself short. If you are saying you are weak because you fail to “properly” chastise others for their behavior at any given moment, that’s another story. There is a time and a way to talk to people about their behavior, and in group settings with people who don’t believe the same things you do, that just may not be the right time and place. It’s not that you would be wrong, so much as that you can be right but ineffective or even counterproductive in terms of helping them come to God if you come across as setting yourself above them. In case it’s helpful, you might check out 1 Cor 9&10, and more specifically 1 Cor 9:19-23 and reflect on how St. Paul behaved around others with different beliefs, and certainly he did it for the sake of the gospel.

And like I mentioned in another post, think of being a fisher of men. A catfish needs to have some time to swallow the bait before you can set the hook and reel it in.

Befriending these people is not in itself a problem; Jesus hung around sinners all the time and most of the time when He corrected people, it was the high and mighty and self-righteous, more often than sinners who could repent and be forgiven. Remember the church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. Somehow the movie “Guys and Dolls” comes to mind.

Alan

 

[JRKH]

I’m trying to live my faith very consistently. This includes declining participation in gossip and lies or not laughing at jokes that I feel are at someone’s expense, even when instigated by someone I love (my husband or sister, for example). I generally decline either by simply not commenting, or if asked a question directly, I say something like “I’m sorry, but I feel like this is gossip or dangerously close to gossip, so I’d rather not talk about it.” and then I try to introduce a new subject, if possible.

Good for you!!!. As to how you should respond, you are doing just fine. If you want something a bit less direct, just say that you have no opinion/information to offer, then as others have said, try to say something positive. As to the comments below…

I have gotten everything from an eye roll

Nothing to say to this…Maybe roll your eyes back at them.

to the accusation that I’m “too Catholic”

Laugh heartily and then thank them and explain that if others think you are “Too Catholic”, you figure that you are doing it right.

or that I don’t “have to be Catholic all the time.”

Laugh again and explain that you are Catholic like you are human or American (assuming you are American) What you are, you are all the time…

Sometimes the person simply says that I need to get off my high horse and realize that I sin too.

When I read this, the response that came to me is…"Actually I’m trying to get off my “low horse and raise myself up”. But they probably wouldn’t get that so the best thing is to thank them for pointing out the speck in your eye and that you are striving to remove it.
Of course they may not get that reference either…

So, my question is: can I respond in a different way so that they don’t take the attitude that I’m being “holier than thou”, or do I just have to brazen it out in order to be faithful? Please keep in mind that I’m talking about all kinds of sin here: lies, gossip, slander, bigotry (as in jokes/stories/attitudes/statements that make fun of race, creed, hair color, nationality, etc), sexual sins, criticism of others, taking the Lord’s name in vain, etc. Basically every kind of sin that’s prevelant in today’s society that the world doesn’t consider “really serious”. How do you decline participation in sin without appearing to condemn the one who chooses to participate? Is that even possible?

I’m afraid that you will have to “brazen it out” to a large extent, especially where family is concerned.
Of course be as charitable as you can. Try not to lose your sense of humor especially when they turn to pick on you and your “holier than thou” attitude.
Love is your greatest weapon and the one that will win the most souls for Christ.

As another has already mentioned, people don’t like to have their failings pointed up to them, especially when they are things “commonly accepted”. They want you to be “one of the gang”
I’m reminded of a scene in the movie “A Man for All Seasons” where a council of the King is trying to get Sir Thomas More to sign an oath regarding the Kings marriage to Anne Boleyn

The Duke of Norfolk: Oh confound all this. I’m not a scholar, I don’t know whether the marriage was lawful or not but dammit, Thomas, look at these names! Why can’t you do as I did and come with us, for fellowship!
Sir Thomas More: And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for doing your conscience, and I am sent to hell for not doing mine, will you come with me, for fellowship?

So these folks, like the Duke, want you to come along with them, to be one of the gang, “for fellowship”, but the problem is that there is so much more at stake and you must stand your ground.

Peace
James

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

But what if we want to go beyond merely “protecting ourselves” and try to seize this opportunity to win those pathetic creatures (the least of Christ’s brothers, maybe) over for the Lord? If we say things that we know is going to put them off, particularly when they aren’t sensitive enough to care about what I believe regarding their behavior, then what have we gained in that area?
Alan

Alan,
I think you make a very good point. There is a difference between protecting oneself and evangelising. If one has an opportunity to spread the word and educate people, than it ought to be done, and the words of St. Paul are very good advice on how to do it.
However, experience has taught me that just showing others that I have beliefs will make them stop and think. It could be the case that they think I’m just another Jesus freak, but it has also happened to me that a person told me later on that they were impressed with my stance and the very fact that I have moral conviction about something. A person who comes to us and asks questions and wants to genuinely learn something about Christianity is when we should evangelise.
I don’t see how we can do that in situations when someone is telling a rude joke or gossiping, apart from stating that we don’t want to join, or by staying silent and reacting in that way. So the way I see it, it is a matter of several stages in stating our faith and evangelising. Being open about our beliefs is the first step to reaching people.

 

[JRKH]

Reading through the excellent advice and comments above, I thought of a couple of things.

1. Rude jokes -
   Not laughing at rude jokes should not be difficult because they are offensive us and our beliefs/sensibilities. If someone asks - “Don’t you think that’s funny?”, or if the joke is specifically told to you (as opposed to a group setting) you could give your reason(s) for not finding such things humorous.
   That said, we need to be careful about becoming too strident.
   For instance I have known priests who liked some “priest jokes” because they could laugh at themselves.
   Likewise, when I was still working in industry, employees played jokes and told jokes on each other - but they were all friends and no one took offense.
   There can be circumstances and settings and intent that can effect the appropriateness of some jokes. Others are just crude no matter where or when.
2. Gossip -
   The majority of time gossip is the spreading of 2nd or 3rd hand information or innuendo and quite often, if there IS any first hand information it is decidedly one sided and/or incomplete. So if someone, as the OP mentions, directly asks you to comment on some gossip, rather than say, “something like “I’m sorry, but I feel like this is gossip or dangerously close to gossip, so I’d rather not talk about it”, you could say:
   Well I really don’t have any firsthand knowledge of the matter so I don’t think it fair to comment”…or
   I’m sure there is more to it than what we know or think we know…or
   I suspect there are two sides to the issue and we really don’t know the details…
   Then go on to mention some good thing about the person etc and how important it is to reserve judgement on the matter.
   And then finish off the comment with, "the best thing we can do for him/her/them is to pray for them.

Peace
James

 

[k8e308]

Thank you all for the wonderful responses. I would like to correct the misconception I inadvertently started, though. I am trying to do better with staying away from this kind of thing, but as many of you pointed out, it’s incredibly difficult and I’m really just starting to work on it. So thank you to those who gave me kudos for doing well with it, hopefully I’ll be worthy of such praise one day.

I feel much better equipped with going about my day and having some great ideas to extricate myself from these situations. Thanks again, and if there’s more advice, keep it coming!

 

[Humbled1]

Reading through the excellent advice and comments above, I thought of a couple of things.

1. Rude jokes -
   Not laughing at rude jokes should not be difficult because they are offensive us and our beliefs/sensibilities. If someone asks - “Don’t you think that’s funny?”, or if the joke is specifically told to you (as opposed to a group setting) you could give your reason(s) for not finding such things humorous.
   That said, we need to be careful about becoming too strident.
   For instance I have known priests who liked some “priest jokes” because they could laugh at themselves.
   Likewise, when I was still working in industry, employees played jokes and told jokes on each other - but they were all friends and no one took offense.
   There can be circumstances and settings and intent that can effect the appropriateness of some jokes. Others are just crude no matter where or when.
2. Gossip -
   The majority of time gossip is the spreading of 2nd or 3rd hand information or innuendo and quite often, if there IS any first hand information it is decidedly one sided and/or incomplete. So if someone, as the OP mentions, directly asks you to comment on some gossip, rather than say, “something like “I’m sorry, but I feel like this is gossip or dangerously close to gossip, so I’d rather not talk about it”, you could say:
   Well I really don’t have any firsthand knowledge of the matter so I don’t think it fair to comment”…or
   I’m sure there is more to it than what we know or think we know…or
   I suspect there are two sides to the issue and we really don’t know the details…
   Then go on to mention some good thing about the person etc and how important it is to reserve judgement on the matter.
   And then finish off the comment with, "the best thing we can do for him/her/them is to pray for them.

Peace
James

:clapping:

The only thing that I wanted to add, was to say a “Blessed be the name of God” whenever you hear someone take the Lord’s name in vain. I say it as a prayer of reparation… but it also seems to help people to realize that taking the Lord’s name in vain is truly offensive to many Christians. Most people will check this sort of language around me, and not in a way that they find overly-burdensome. People have thanked me for helping them to realize that they’d slipped into a bad, socially-acceptable habit.

 

[JoeyPio]

Just hold on to your conviction. It’s always best to admit of being a sinner too. Keep it a reason why not to join anythings else against anybody… not adding to the offense committed to God.
We’re in the same boat. No matter how they get against you because of it,why care. Let them yield in your steadfastness. They will respect you for that in the end.