Too many abortions posts in this forum

  • Thread starter Thread starter norbert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

norbert

Guest
Why are there so many abortion posts in the “Culture of Life” forum? If we really desire a Culture of Life, shouldn’t we care about all the living, not just the fetuses? Why no posts on the humanitarian crisis in Darfur? Why no uproar about that execution in Connecticut last week? What about health care for the elderly? Nutrition for poor kids? Etc. The “Culture of Life” is a noble idea, but I think it obviously has to involve promoting life at every part of the spectrum, and it doesn’t seem like anyone cares about life past the embryonic stage. And why are all these “Democrats are sinners” and “Rainbow Sashers are going to hell” posts on this forum?
 
Your opinions are duly noted. Why not start a post about Darfur? That is an example of hideous violations of human rights and cries out for wider knowledge.

Take it one at a time, friend, one at a time. . .
 
40.png
norbert:
Why are there so many abortion posts in the “Culture of Life” forum? If we really desire a Culture of Life, shouldn’t we care about all the living, not just the fetuses? Why no posts on the humanitarian crisis in Darfur? Why no uproar about that execution in Connecticut last week? What about health care for the elderly? Nutrition for poor kids? Etc. The “Culture of Life” is a noble idea, but I think it obviously has to involve promoting life at every part of the spectrum, and it doesn’t seem like anyone cares about life past the embryonic stage. And why are all these “Democrats are sinners” and “Rainbow Sashers are going to hell” posts on this forum?
Click to expand...
Simple.

Genocide=evil. And everyone knows and says so.
Deliberately starving poor people=evil. And everyone knows and says so.

Abortion, homosexuality=evil. And…UH-OH, hold on a minute…we’ve got people actually championing the lie that these things are not evil and actively working to promote these evils.

Scott
 
Well Norbert,
I have not been too involved in this particular forum, but I am heavily involved in Right to Life. All the issues you refer to are important, but the very begining of life’s sacredness begins in the womb. These lives are completely innocent and cannot defend themselves in any way from the torture of abortionists. They feel pain more severely than any adult! The number of abortions in this country outnumber the lives lost in the wars! The lives of others are sacred too, and action must be taken as well, but the numbers pale in comparrison to murdered babies! Society generally recognizes the evils of some of the other things you mentioned, yet remains blinded to the evil of murdering babies! Abortion is a holocaust at numbers far exceeding those of history!

I do not think people intend to call Democrats evil. Rather they are referring to the Democratic Party’s support of evils of abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, and homosexual marriage – foundational elements of our faith that cannot be compromized. The Democratic Party is largely responsible for getting God and Christian values stricken from our country. As Catholics we are required to enculturate our faith into society; thus, how can any true Catholic support such heresies! Many other things you mentioned are still supported by both parties, but each come at them in different ways. Both try in their ways to eliminate human atrocities, hunger, joblessness, and other things in their individual ways. Both care about and work to improve the well being of every American, regardless of socio-economic status. Both seek to find a solution to health issues in their own ways. Neither party is totally against the death penalty. Thus, the Republican Party at this time is closest to Catholic values.

I believe Catholics have the political obligation to place in government those who would support our faith and keep from government those who oppose our faith – regardless of political Party affiliation!

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
40.png
norbert:
Why are there so many abortion posts in the “Culture of Life” forum? If we really desire a Culture of Life, shouldn’t we care about all the living, not just the fetuses? Why no posts on the humanitarian crisis in Darfur? Why no uproar about that execution in Connecticut last week? What about health care for the elderly? Nutrition for poor kids? Etc. The “Culture of Life” is a noble idea, but I think it obviously has to involve promoting life at every part of the spectrum, and it doesn’t seem like anyone cares about life past the embryonic stage. And why are all these “Democrats are sinners” and “Rainbow Sashers are going to hell” posts on this forum?
Click to expand...
 
Norbort:

I notice you listed DARFUR, and NOT SOUTHERN SUDAN, where something like 2 million Christians and Animists have been SLAUGHTERED during the last 18 years and another 350,000 SOLD INTO SLAVERY! The press was largely SILENT about the ATROCITY in SOUTHERN SUDAN, because MOST of the VICTIMS were CHRISTIANS and the PERPETRATORS were MUSLIMS!

The situation is only now looking as if it may be resolved, because the Islamic Government of Sudan is afraid that President Bush may actually be serious about that bit about liberating captive peoples by force if necessary.

But, even if the situation is resolved so the GENOCIDE and the FORCED SLAVERY stops, I doubt we’ll see any of the PERPETRATORS facing JUSTICE at the HAGUE or eleswhere.

Regarding the rest, ALL of the groups you referred to have some sort of LOBBYING GROUPS TAKING THEIR CASES up with the CONGRESS and the Several States, or we are talking about things that believers are supposed to do for each other.

The ONLY GROUP of people who CAN’T defend themselves, and who have NO LOBBYING GROUP and who have the LAW ITSELF AGAINST THEM are God’s Little Ones, THE ONES GOD says He “formed in the WOMB”, the PRE-BORN CHILDREN.

NOW, you’ll see that I quoted 2 MILLION as the TOTAL SLAUGHTERED in SUDAN. Since 1973, when ROE V. WADE was decided, we’ve SLAUGHTERED OVER 45 MILLION PRE-BORN CHILDREN in the USA ALONE! That’s NOT counting EUROPE (which also has legal Abortions for most of that time), China (which has MANDATED ENFORCED ABORTIONS) and any other Countries which have legalized ABORTION since 1973!

Norbert, are you saying that you had NO IDEA that we had SLAUGHTERED SO MANY? or, Are you trying to say that you don’t believe that PRE-BORN BABIES are FULLY HUMAN BEINGS deserving of LEGAL PROTECTION and ATTENTION? or, Do you believe that some human beings are more “human” that others and get to choose whether those others live by virtue of their “GEOGRAPHY” and “DEVELOPMENT”?

I mean, Norbert, you either believe that when a women is pregnant, we are dealing with 2 HUMAN PERSONS (including one INSIDE THE WOMB), or you don’t.

Use this INDEX to view the IMAGES:
priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm#galleries

Then take a Look at Project Rachel to see the havoc Abortion does to the souls of women who undergo the procedure:
rachelsvineyard.org/
rachelsvineyard.org/publications/book.htm

Even women who are taught that “Abortions don’t kill BABIES” know better AFTER they have one!

Think about it.

May God bless those who act to save His Little Ones.
Michael
 
They have a chance to be drawn closer to Christ through their suffering, a pre-born infant has yet to hear the Gospel.
 
40.png
norbert:
Why are there so many abortion posts in the “Culture of Life” forum? If we really desire a Culture of Life, shouldn’t we care about all the living, not just the fetuses? Why no posts on the humanitarian crisis in Darfur? Why no uproar about that execution in Connecticut last week? What about health care for the elderly? Nutrition for poor kids? Etc. The “Culture of Life” is a noble idea, but I think it obviously has to involve promoting life at every part of the spectrum, and it doesn’t seem like anyone cares about life past the embryonic stage. And why are all these “Democrats are sinners” and “Rainbow Sashers are going to hell” posts on this forum?
Click to expand...
Personally, I think the issue should be about health care for all, not just the elderly. The whole industry of health care seems to be more about money than about care. The CEO’s are making millions of dollars per year(they get stock options and bonuses, as well as a paycheck) while they cut the services they will pay for and raising the amounts of money we have to pay to get coverage.
While they are lining their pockets, the people getting shafted the most are the poor and the elderly. But it affects us all.

I don’t understand where you are coming from with the nutrition for poor children issue. I know that, at least around where I am from, there are programs addressing that issue.Can you elaborate?

What execution? Are you refering to the serial killer?
 
Norbert,why don’t you say what you mean instead of deflecting with another argument:mad: Why are there so many threads about FETUSES:tsktsk: You mean the 4,000 plus MURDERED every day!!!You talk about other social justice which we do NOT ignore!But guess what:nope: ALL these programs will NOT help you if you have been MURDERED!The unborn can’t complain or be heard like Terri couldn’t so some of us CHOOSE to be their voice.Where do you stand?:nope:
 
If you cannot respect and protect the most innocent and basic form of human life, how are you ready to protect the rest of the human race.

matt
 
Very simply, the fact that there are grave humanitarian crises around the world does not downplay the need to emphasize the crisis that is abortion.
That is, yes, we should acknowledge, care about, and fight for these other issues you’ve mentioned. Not, however, at the expense of the unborn.

I suppose it boils down to the fact that you’ve created a false dichotomy.
 
Norbert, I think you make a good point. As I understand you, you’re not arguing that abortion isn’t evil, nor do you disagree with the point that if you don’t get life, all other social justice issues are moot. As I understood his post, it’s that the church’s teachings on abortion and homosexuality are heavily discussed on these forums, and the church’s other social justice teachings receive little to no attention. As a person new to this forum, I’ve noticed this as well. I’ve been surprised how little talk there is about what our responsibilities are to the poor, the sick, the mentally ill, etc. The church makes it very clear that all of us blessed with wealth and food and health and safe environments have a strong responsibility to care for and be the voice of those who are oppressed.
That is, yes, we should acknowledge, care about, and fight for these other issues you’ve mentioned. Not, however, at the expense of the unborn.
Click to expand...
I don’t think he’s created a false dichotomy. I don’t think he’s saying don’t care about abortion, care about these other issues. I think he’s saying what I’m saying – why does it seem as though abortion is cared about to the exclusion of these other issues here?

So, Norbert, go for it. Start those threads, and I’ll start some, too.
 
Momofone:
Personally, I think the issue should be about health care for all, not just the elderly. The whole industry of health care seems to be more about money than about care. The CEO’s are making millions of dollars per year(they get stock options and bonuses, as well as a paycheck)?
Click to expand...
CEO’s of WHAT make millions? I think there are a few hospital conglomorates that have high paid CEOs although that seems to have been a thing of the past as many of these companies have been fined for improper billing practices.

The CEOs of some major insurance companies do make excellent money as do some hospital administrators.

However health care PROVIDERS see their pay reduced year after year. I work for a group of medical clinics and have seen reimbursement drop dramatically since I started in this field. We now receive about 40% of what was paid for the same procedures in 1987! One of our practices is mostly Medicaid or charity. Medicaid pays $1500 for a $7000 surgery. In the meantime the costs of operating a medical practice have gone up dramatically.

You are picking on the wrong ‘enemy’ momofone. The medical field is in terrible shape due to declining reimbursement.
Momofone:
while they cut the services they will pay for and raising the amounts of money we have to pay to get coverage.
While they are lining their pockets, the people getting shafted the most are the poor and the elderly. But it affects us all. ?
Click to expand...
No the person getting shafted is the MEDICAL PROVIDER. He/she is the one that takes the hit. Ironically we are also medical consumers so we get hit from both sides. Our employee premiums have gone up 40% but they pay less every year. Why? To cover all of the administrative costs such as HIPAA, new requirements for very expensive computer software for billing purposes, certain government mandates about what must be covered, etc.
 
40.png
dwc:
I don’t think he’s saying don’t care about abortion, care about these other issues. I think he’s saying what I’m saying – why does it seem as though abortion is cared about to the exclusion of these other issues here?
Click to expand...
In other threads, Norbert has defended the right to abortion from the standpoint of better safe legal and rare than women dying from illegal abortions.

I think one reason there are so many discussions on abortion is that there are really two sides to abortion that are taken on this forum as well as two sides in society. Same with homosexuality.

Since this is a discussion forum, not an action forum, the most threads will be developed which stimulate discussion. Now on Darfur etc, most of would agree that it is unconsionable. If we pretty much have agreement, there’s not* as* much to discuss. Yes we could and should have some discussions to inform and educate ourselves, and to inform ourselves on what we can do, writing congressmen etc. But you won’t get the heated debate because there is a concensus.

My two cents anyway
 
Lisa N:
CEO’s of WHAT make millions? I think there are a few hospital conglomorates that have high paid CEOs although that seems to have been a thing of the past as many of these companies have been fined for improper billing practices.

The CEOs of some major insurance companies do make excellent money as do some hospital administrators.
What I was refering to was the CEO’s of major insurance companies. Although the heads of some conglomerates make way too much money.

However health care PROVIDERS see their pay reduced year after year. I work for a group of medical clinics and have seen reimbursement drop dramatically since I started in this field. We now receive about 40% of what was paid for the same procedures in 1987! One of our practices is mostly Medicaid or charity. Medicaid pays $1500 for a $7000 surgery. In the meantime the costs of operating a medical practice have gone up dramatically.

You are picking on the wrong ‘enemy’ momofone. The medical field is in terrible shape due to declining reimbursement.
Wrong enemy? No. But, as you pointed out, there are other aspects to this issue, too. Reimbursment is ridiculous. I have one patient who has health insurance. The company that provides her supplies will charge a certain amount. The insurance company will pay $0.40, less than 1% of what was charged. That is utterly ridiculous. How the heck is anyone supposed to run a business like that? I think that it is sinful to make milions(much of which is in stock options) while cutting basic services,raising the amounts that the consumer pays, and not reimbursing the providers just to make your stockholders and your portfolio happy!

No the person getting shafted is the MEDICAL PROVIDER. He/she is the one that takes the hit. Ironically we are also medical consumers so we get hit from both sides. Our employee premiums have gone up 40% but they pay less every year. Why? To cover all of the administrative costs such as HIPAA, new requirements for very expensive computer software for billing purposes, certain government mandates about what must be covered, etc.
Don’t forget plain old greed…
Click to expand...
 
Lisa N:
The CEOs of some major insurance companies do make excellent money as do some hospital administrators.

However health care PROVIDERS see their pay reduced year after year. …
No the person getting shafted is the MEDICAL PROVIDER. He/she is the one that takes the hit. Ironically we are also medical consumers so we get hit from both sides. Our employee premiums have gone up 40% but they pay less every year. Why? To cover all of the administrative costs such as HIPAA, new requirements for very expensive computer software for billing purposes, certain government mandates about what must be covered, etc.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, Lisa. My mom is on the executive board of the local hospital. During an executive meeting, one member, a lawyer, was questioning something to do with HMO’s and provider reimbursement, in a way that was indicating he thought docs made more than enough, thank you. A doctor on the board pointed out that he gets $300 per year per patient, whether he sees them once or every day of the year. So based on the average number of visits he only makes $X per visit (cant remember the amount but it was ridiculously low)

He looked at the lawyer and said “How much do you make per hour?” Well that completely burst the lawyers bubble, since his charge to attend the meeting was more than the doc gets the entire year for one patient.

The system now is completely insane.
 
Scott Waddell:
Simple.

Genocide=evil. And everyone knows and says so.
Deliberately starving poor people=evil. And everyone knows and says so.

Abortion, homosexuality=evil. And…UH-OH, hold on a minute…we’ve got people actually championing the lie that these things are not evil and actively working to promote these evils.

Scott
Click to expand...
This isn’t the “Things that are Evil” forum. It’s the “Culture of Life” forum. I have always assumed that means celebrating and promoting life at all its stages. I never knew disparaging homosexuals was part of that Culture.
 
In other threads, Norbert has defended the right to abortion from the standpoint of better safe legal and rare than women dying from illegal abortions.
Click to expand...
Ah, I see. Well, then, I disagree wholeheartedly with** that** position. I don’t think there can or should be this competition between the church’s social justice/right to life teachings, which are perfectly consistent.

As for the medical insurance situation, I would offer this: My husband is an emergency physician/employee for an authentically Catholic hospital run by sisters. The sisters’ mission is to care for the poor, and everyone knows it. Of the 3 major hospitals in the city, a large percent of the medicare/medicaid patients as well as the “self pay” (read: no pay) come to this ER because they do provide the same care to everyone without doing a wallet biopsy first. The hospital is in trouble simply because of the lack of adequate reimbursement from the government programs. While some talk about greed on behalf of the doctors and the hospital administration, think of this: if this hospital goes under, the poor will receive nothing but the most emergent medical care required under law. No more free clinics for ob/gyn, family practice and peds, no more 24 hour free medical care for minor emergencies as well as non-emergencies in the emergency department.
 
40.png
dwc:
As for the medical insurance situation, I would offer this: My husband is an emergency physician/employee for an authentically Catholic hospital run by sisters. The sisters’ mission is to care for the poor, and everyone knows it. Of the 3 major hospitals in the city, a large percent of the medicare/medicaid patients as well as the “self pay” (read: no pay) come to this ER because they do provide the same care to everyone without doing a wallet biopsy first. The hospital is in trouble simply because of the lack of adequate reimbursement from the government programs. While some talk about greed on behalf of the doctors and the hospital administration, think of this: if this hospital goes under, the poor will receive nothing but the most emergent medical care required under law. No more free clinics for ob/gyn, family practice and peds, no more 24 hour free medical care for minor emergencies as well as non-emergencies in the emergency department.
Click to expand...
Just what I mean, insane. My thoughts have been the following: 1) If every employer was required to provide insurance on every employee, insurance rates would drop like a rock. Right now many of the uninsured are young people who are relatively healthy. If every employer was required to provide insurance, then no one would be under undue hardship as all companies would be on a level playing field and rates would be lower due to the deeper pool of insured.
  1. Government oversight/regulation on insurance companies, similar to utilities in the past. I still trust the private sector to be the most efficient, so it shouldn’t be gov’t run, however unbridled capitalism has lead to debacles of the past. Excess profits should be returned to the participants, just like utility coops.
Many flaws in the above, I’m sure, but I can’t honestly see where its worse than the trainwreck we’re currently engaged in.
 
40.png
ames61:
Just what I mean, insane. My thoughts have been the following: 1) If every employer was required to provide insurance on every employee, insurance rates would drop like a rock. Right now many of the uninsured are young people who are relatively healthy. If every employer was required to provide insurance, then no one would be under undue hardship as all companies would be on a level playing field and rates would be lower due to the deeper pool of insured.
  1. Government oversight/regulation on insurance companies, similar to utilities in the past. I still trust the private sector to be the most efficient, so it shouldn’t be gov’t run, however unbridled capitalism has lead to debacles of the past. Excess profits should be returned to the participants, just like utility coops. *Thank you. That’s basically what I wanted to say. *
Many flaws in the above, I’m sure, but I can’t honestly see where its worse than the trainwreck we’re currently engaged in.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top