Too many right-wingers in this forum?

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SoCalRC said:
I fully embrace the Church’s teaching on abortion, including the immorality of having it in secular law. .
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What Church teaching says it is immoral to have a law against abortion?

And how would that not also make laws against murder, rape, robbery and so on equally immoral?
 
SoCalRC said:
I fully embrace the Church’s teaching on abortion, including the immorality of having it in secular law. But secular law appears to be the least effective strategy in terms of actually reducing abortions. It is a good political strategy, but I don’t care about the fortunes of any party, I want to see fewer unwanted children and fewer abortions.
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We want the same thing. That’s why I believe it is our duty as Catholics to help educate those who think abortion is okay. It is also our duty to help the poor and teens who become pregnant and need help through their delivery and the adoption process.

Solutions to poverty is something you and I differ on, but your solution is not the exclusive solution. It is a stretch to call liberal solutions to poverty a “pro-life” virtue. They are no more “pro-life” than conservative solutions to poverty. Either way, we need to educate people, so they understand that abortion is the taking of a human life.
 
rlg94086 said:
We want the same thing. That’s why I believe it is our duty as Catholics to help educate those who think abortion is okay. It is also our duty to help the poor and teens who become pregnant and need help through their delivery and the adoption process.

Solutions to poverty is something you and I differ on, but your solution is not the exclusive solution. It is a stretch to call liberal solutions to poverty a “pro-life” virtue. They are no more “pro-life” than conservative solutions to poverty. Either way, we need to educate people, so they understand that abortion is the taking of a human life.
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How do we educate people about the immorality of abortion when it is officially certified as a “right?”

We dealt with racial discrimination by enacting laws and enforcing them – a forthright statement that such behavior is wrong. Imagine where we’d be if we had a law or court ruling saying that segregation and discrimination is a “right?”
 
vern_humphrey said:
How do we educate people about the immorality of abortion when it is officially certified as a “right?”

We dealt with racial discrimination by enacting laws and enforcing them – a forthright statement that such behavior is wrong. Imagine where we’d be if we had a law or court ruling saying that segregation and discrimination is a “right?”
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Hi Vern,

We do that the same way we educate people about the immorality of adultery and divorce. We have no choice at this point, since abortion is legal. In the meantime, we keep fighting to make it illegal.
 
Jzyehoshua said:
I recently heard it preached that it’s hypocritical for us to tell young women not to abort but then provide them no help when they ask how to take care of a child they can’t afford to raise. More people who publicly oppose abortion should be willing to adopt. The guy preaching had adopted 3 kids already and was looking to adopt more. He actually told of how he went to an abortion clinic and offered to find a woman going to abort a good home for her baby, or else he would personally adopt the child himself. Not only did she end up choosing not to abort right there, but she chose to keep the child. 🙂
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YES! Absolutely!
 
rlg94086 said:
Hi Vern,

We do that the same way we educate people about the immorality of adultery and divorce. We have no choice at this point, since it is legal. In the meantime, we keep fighting to make it illegal.
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Adultry and divorce do not kill human beings. They are not violent crimes. The parallel with abortion would be with rape and spouse beating – and those things are against the law.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Adultry and divorce do not kill human beings. They are not violent crimes. The parallel with abortion would be with rape and spouse beating – and those things are against the law.
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And unfortunately, it took time and discussion to get both of those things on the law books…not all that long ago in the aspect of history…

I think we all just want the same things, we just have different ideas of how to get there - none of us want abortion, but how to best get rid of it instead of just forcing it back into dark alleys with hangers?..
 
SoCalRC said:
No, my reasoning is the same as the Church’s:

See Vatican link above. Our obligation to the children is not contingent on their origin. We Catholics do not put life on par with material goods. It is an absolute and unabridable right. Similiar, we do not put conditions on our Christian obligation to the less fortunate. Our call is not to judge others, but to be in the service of the weakest among us (regardless of our own impression of their spiritual state).

The concepts you are professing, that human life is like possessions and obligations to the weak with regards to their continued existance only goes as far as is completely-convenient-and-of-no-cost-to-oneself, does not really match Catholic “right to life” principles (see GENTIUM LUMEN and CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI).

We believe that God values each life infinitely, that is why abortion and euthanasia are absolutes and why the Church so forcefully objects to modern applications of the death penalty. And we are to love our neighbors as ourselves (generally as close to infinite love as we can come). It is easy to claim to love fetal life and unwanted children, but an unwillingness to go beyond no cost efforts would seem to profess that, in reality, we love our own lifestyle and things more.

This is another of the seeming contradictions between different aspects of “right” thinking. Concepts like “mine”, “earned”, and “deserved” are very popular, but at odds with Holy Scripture.
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How does any of that answer my question or prove one must be willing to adopt to be publicly opposed to murder?
 
Christine_Blake said:
And unfortunately, it took time and discussion to get both of those things on the law books…not all that long ago in the aspect of history…

I think we all just want the same things, we just have different ideas of how to get there - none of us want abortion, but how to best get rid of it instead of just forcing it back into dark alleys with hangers?..
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It took about 60 years – Plessy vs Ferguson (in which the Court declared “separate but equal” was Constitutional) was handed down in 1895, as I recall, and Brown vs The Board of Education (which reversed Plessy vs Ferguson) was in 1954.

We are now coming up on 35 years since Roe vs Wade, and right in the timeframe for reversal of the ruling. It is time to have laws on abortion – in fact, we do have some, such as the law against partial birth abortions.
 
vern_humphrey said:
It’s hypocritical to pretend that the Pro-life movement doesn’t help women who need help.

There is no shortage of parents wanting to adopt – my daughter and son-in-law were planning on adopting before our first grandchild was born – and found they’d have to go to China to get a child!
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Maybe you can help me? If they did not want to adopt could they still be against abortion or is that stance illogical?
 
vern_humphrey said:
Adultry and divorce do not kill human beings. They are not violent crimes. The parallel with abortion would be with rape and spouse beating – and those things are against the law.
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Vern,

I thought we agree, but are you arguing against what I am saying? While abortion is legal, are you saying that we should not educate people on the evil of abortion…we should wait until it’s illegal to do that??
 
fix said:
Maybe you can help me? If they did not want to adopt could they still be against abortion or is that stance illogical?
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Of course you can be against abortion if you do not adopt.

In fact, given the shortage of children available for adoption, it would be impossible for more than a small fraction of pro-lifers to adopt.
 
rlg94086 said:
Vern,

I thought we agree, but are you arguing against what I am saying? While abortion is legal, are you saying that we should not educate people on the evil of abortion…we should wait until it’s illegal to do that??
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Now that would be the fallacy of limited alternatives – “If you advocate such-and-such, you must be against the other thing.”

I’m saying that a major and necessary step in educating people on the evils of abortion is to officially declare how evil it is – by outlawing it. And therefore laws against abortion should be an important goal of our education program.
 
vern_humphrey said:
It took about 60 years – Plessy vs Ferguson (in which the Court declared “separate but equal” was Constitutional) was handed down in 1895, as I recall, and Brown vs The Board of Education (which reversed Plessy vs Ferguson) was in 1954.

We are now coming up on 35 years since Roe vs Wade, and right in the timeframe for reversal of the ruling. It is time to have laws on abortion – in fact, we do have some, such as the law against partial birth abortions.
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Actually I was referring to rape and domestic abuse…
 
vern_humphrey said:
Now that would be the fallacy of limited alternatives – “If you advocate such-and-such, you must be against the other thing.”

I’m saying that a major and necessary step in educating people on the evils of abortion is to officially declare how evil it is – by outlawing it. And therefore laws against abortion should be an important goal of our education program.
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Right! So, we agree 100%. Why are you arguing against me?? If I had said we need to educate, but not make it illegal I would understand, but all I said is that we need to do both. What is wrong with that? I can walk and chew gum at the same time. 🙂
 
vern_humphrey said:
Of course you can be against abortion if you do not adopt.

In fact, given the shortage of children available for adoption, it would be impossible for more than a small fraction of pro-lifers to adopt.
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Thank you. Now perhaps you can explain that to others here?
 
rlg94086 said:
Right! So, we agree 100%. Why are you arguing against me?? If I had said we need to educate, but not make it illegal I would understand, but all I said is that we need to do both. What is wrong with that? I can walk and chew gum at the same time. 🙂
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What we must be careful not to do is back off the position is that the unborn child is completely human – and hence abortion by necessity is murder. That means we must always push the law, regardless of what else we do.
 
fix said:
Thank you. Now perhaps you can explain that to others here?
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There are those who use this argument to disguise support for abortion (or as an excuse to support pro-choice policies and politicians.) Therefore there is no point in explaining it to them – they already know it, but won’t accept it.

However, some people who aren’t committed to those policies and politicians may come to understand how dishonest this “If you oppose abortion you must adopt” argument is.
 
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