Too many rules and not enough loving?

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Magicsilence:
after reading the “Imitation of Christ” I can totally understand what Christ is calling us to do, and i do feel peace when i try and act such things out. Its just within that book it says that foolish men worry about the things of this world (i.e questions such as: If im on plane going left, can i eat meat even though technically its friday in my country) and those true to God live simply for Him. Maybe you can see why i asked the original question?
From the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis: ”He who loves God with all his heart does not fear death or punishment or judgment or hell, because perfect love assures access to God. It is no wonder that he who still delights in sin fears death and judgment. It is good, however, that even if love does not as yet restrain you from evil, at least the fear of hell does. The man who casts aside the fear of God cannot continue long in goodness but will quickly fall into the snares of the devil.” The Imitation of Christ, with all justice, is considered the masterpiece of Catholic mysticism. And I have to confess that is the book, besides the Bible, that has had the deepest influence in my way of believing. In the way I face the divine gift of faith. But we must be careful, because the Imitation of Christ is a work of rigorous orthodoxy and Protestants have nothing to do with its spirit. It is not possible to “sincerely want to find union with Christ” despising and not obeying the Holy Catholic Church.
 
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Magicsilence:
After watching many protestant ( I know ) videos it seems they sincerely want to find union with Christ and wish to spread it with the world, especially in regard to the ministries set up in poorer parts of the world.

Are we bogged down by rules and apologetics that we have forgotten to spread the love?

In sincerity

Andre.
Apologetics is the loving defense of the faith. It is entirely consistent with spreading the Gospel - the “Good News” - of Christ.

Which “rules” are you referring to. If you mean the liturgy of the church, then my answer would be a resounding “no.” If you mean there are too many administrative distractions to ministry and evangelization, then please develop your objection so it is clear.

Peace,
 
Mijoy, your responses in quotes; mine follow (sans quotes):

“This was hardly my point. I find the truth of the Catholic faith beautiful, the deeper I dig the more much of it comes to make sense to me. Yet I can relate to the original posters feeling of being “bogged down” with what can often feel like legalities.”

But that’s what I’m trying to get at: what rules/legalities do you want to jettison? I asked this question of Magicsilence, and her response was, “I didn’t say we should abolish them”. But that doesn’t make sense: if a rule/legality is bogging people down then why not abolish it? All I’m asking for is concrete examples, and an indication that those examples are fully understood in the light of Church teaching. I don’t want to wallow in wishy-washy kinda-sorta feelings: tell me what the rules are that you want to get rid of, and why.

“I also attempted to make the point the more orthodox, the more deep the debates. When the vast majority of Catholics could never even begin to worry over such things where they are completely ignorant to such doctrine in the first place.”

That’s not true. I know many, many devout, orthodox Catholics who simply aren’t interested in apologetics and would never dream of debating: it’s just not their particular area of interest. Orthodoxy does not automatically result in deep debates; committed individuals who are interested in debating are much more likely to produce deep debates, heterodox or orthodox, whatever the topic might be.

“I wish I could share your peace. How do you reconcile your peace when you are surrounded by loved ones who know little to nothing about thier faith? I seldom see this addressed. When I witness people I do not know or hardly know totally ignorant and living counter to our beliefs I feel pain. When I witness a loved one, a family member living counter to our faith and beliefs I feel anything but peace.”

I am at peace because I do my part. I can’t “save” everyone, but hopefully I reach a few, and the Holy Spirit goes from there. No one can be around me for very long before they know I’m Catholic; I love to talk about religion and faith; I am active in my parish’s Evangelization Initiative; I include apologetics in our parish newsletter, which I produce; and I pray. I am actively trying to bring my siblings back to the Church. Now, I happen to be an outgoing person who loves debate; I am sure that there are orthodox Catholics who are not so inclined who also serve by praying and sacrificing. So, that’s why I am at peace.
 
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Magicsilence:
EXACTLY what I’m getting at, too much focus on sin and damnation, working out precise methods of defining this or that. Does Jesus really sit there saying “Current state of soul, HELLBOUND” “Reason, unrepented mortal sin #3478924” or whatever.
But where do you find the Church categorizing sins by numbers in the way you are suggesting, making mockery of her, Christ’s Bride? Of course Jesus doesn’t “sit there” and say the stuff you are suggesting that the Church says He does. This is an offensive straw-man argument.

I’ll ask you again: what rules do you want to see tossed out? When you list them, please also list why it is that the rule is there in the first place. That will reassure me that you understand the rule in the first place.
 
Magicsilence:

The rules of the church help us endear ourselves to Christ. Example…fasting an hour before receiving Holy Communion. If you’ve ever received on a full stomach it’s one of the worst feelings in the world. But being a little hungry going to Mass and then receiving Him does wonders. Genuflecting facing the tabernacle. One feels like a knight or a soldier coming home to the King! The astounding thing about our Catholic Culture is that we have all of these ways of worshipping.

Like a marriage, the communication modes of the couple are many and varied: hugs, text messages, leaving notes, phone calls, kisses, glances, gifts, etc. etc. Our love with God should be just as or even more dynamic and varied.

Look deeper into the meanings of our “rules” and find that rules are actually acts of charity to Him.

in XT.
 
I don’t know if this answers your question but maybe it’ll help. My father is one of best tax and internal revenue code scholars in the country. Consequently he’s memorozed the entire internal revenue code, which I can assure you is very, very long and very complicated, far more so than the Church. Once I asked him, Why so many laws? What he always tells me is that the law is either going to be simple or that it’s going to be fair, it can’t be both. Because of our fallen nature we are forced to make rules and definitions. But most of the time I view this as a positive thing. Even our Lord’s command to love one another, is that not a rule? Why are any other rules that pertain to Christ’s Church then any less important? They serve as a way to love us and protect us from harm, as any good shepherd would do for his flock.
 
I tend to think of the “rules” governing the Church like the rules that dictate what a haiku or a sonnet must be. Yes, there are strict guidelines, but the beautiful permutations are endless.

If someone is having trouble with the rules, research that which you question. For me, that clears things up pretty quickly. When I’ve had trouble with the Church’s rules it’s usually because I didn’t understand the Church’s position.
 
This is one thing that Cardinal Murphy O’Connor complimented the Anglican church on. He said that they were keen to become closer to Jesus, and to particularly spread the love of God, (or something along those lines).
Originally Posted by Fidelis
Which might explain why they’ve gone off the rails in ordaining women and practicing homosexuals. Loving people into hell, I think it’s called.
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Magicsilence:
Does love have limitations then?
Love has no limits, but refusal to follow the lawful authority of the Church is not to be ignored, and sinful behavior is never to be endorsed in the name of love.
 
Love has no limits, but refusal to follow the lawful authority of the Church is not to be ignored, and sinful behavior is never to be endorsed in the name of love.
Really, my point was that as catholics, do we spend too much time thinking about the rules? Do we get carried away in church law, but at the same time not God’s law? Do we no longer spread and understand the love of God as we once did, because of the rules we follow?
 
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Libero:
Really, my point was that as catholics, do we spend too much time thinking about the rules? Do we get carried away in church law, but at the same time not God’s law? Do we no longer spread and understand the love of God as we once did, because of the rules we follow?
That is the focus of my original post.

I dont think we should abolish any laws/rules, they are brilliant and guide us to Christ. Im saying that with so many Church laws, i.e priestly celibacy etc… have we missed the point of catholicism, i.e to love others.

In trying to love others, we have to check if we are disobeying Christ and His church, thats all.
 
Magicsilence,

Do you remember learning to drive a car. At first it takes all your energy and concentration. You check every mirror, keep the radio off lest it distract you, at each stop sign you are trying to recall the rule about who goes first, etc. etc.

Or the first day on a new job, it is just overwhelming! So much to remember. Then at the end of the day you lay in bed and think “oh no, I didn’t file form wyr in the right drawer, i wonder if they’ll fire me, I wonder if the company will go under because of my vast stupidity!”

But after a while, it starts to sort itself out. You begin to get into the flow of things. You internalize the rules and traditions. You can turn the radio on.

At work, you come to understand your role in the company, that there are checks and balances in the system, that it is Ok not to rush back at midnight to refile that form correctly, it’ll be there in the morning and you can take care of it.

I think that Catholicism can be like that. We can endlessly worry and fret over the details, and at first, or at stressful times, many people do. But hopefully, a person will grow into their faith, gain a better understanding of their role in the divine relationship, know when to let God be God and when to take action themselves. That is part of the process.

The rules are there as a safety net, a procedure that is meant to help. If we have to carry the prodedures manual with us at all times, and stop and look every action up, the manual becomes a hindrence. But is we internalize the basic ideas and familiarize ourselves with our place in the set up, most of the time we “know” what the course of action is, and if in doubt, we can go check the manual.

Dieter’s can attest to the fact that going on a diet makes you focus on food to an obsessive level. Many people end up eating more on a diet, because the obsessive focus on food and what they cant or shouldn’t have sets off a binge.

The same can happen in our lives. When we focus on the rules and regulations sooo much, we can get a little crazy over it. We can start to see “near occasions to sin” everywhere. Scrupulousity can cripple a person. The lists of “shan’ts” can make us think of doing things we never would have considered if left to our own devices.

There are some personalities that are more subject to this than others.

For some the rules are the most attractive part of the faith, for others the overwhelming love of the father is what they come for. Both are valid and available to all, at all times. The father has an arm to hug with and an arm to chastise with. If you crawl into his lap he can hold you close with both of them.

cheddar
 
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Magicsilence:
That is the focus of my original post.

I dont think we should abolish any laws/rules, they are brilliant and guide us to Christ. Im saying that with so many Church laws, i.e priestly celibacy etc… have we missed the point of catholicism, i.e to love others.

In trying to love others, we have to check if we are disobeying Christ and His church, thats all.
You’re still not being clear: give us concrete examples. List a rule that you think keeps us from loving others; give us the Church’s reasoning behind that law; and then say why the law keeps us from loving others. Are you saying, in this post, that celibacy keeps us Catholics from loving others? Tell me the Church’s reasons, then, for having this rule, so I can know that you fully understand it. Then tell me how celibacy keeps me, as a Catholic, from loving others.

Without such examples the point of your initial post is lost. If you are just wanting to warn us not to forget to love others, then simply do so—where do the rules come in? If YOU find that the rules keep you from loving others, then perhaps you should focus on your own problems and not foist them on the Church and then blame her rules. If you would like help and suggestions from those on the list who have struggled with similar problems, by all means, ask. You need to be clearer in your question and your intent. Vagueness is a problem on a written forum: we can’t hear your tone, etc. I can’t guess at what you REALLY mean, but can only respond to what you write.
 
Let’s use Mother Teresa’s order…they have tons of “rules” like offer your entire being in serving God, each person is a child of God, wear a poor habit that reflects the humility of Christ, get up early work and pray all day then go to bed tired. etc etc. All of these allow them to love greater than without it.

Priestly celibacy is a rule that allows this man who promises to serve his bride the Church from the moment he gets up until he sleeps. If he had a wife and say 3 children, how much time does he have to take care of a parish of 300 families between shuttleing them from one soccer game to the ballet lessons? Again, this celibacy rule allows a man who vows to love God more time and committment to serve.

Great thread.

in XT.
 
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Sherlock:
That’s not true. I know many, many devout, orthodox Catholics who simply aren’t interested in apologetics and would never dream of debating: it’s just not their particular area of interest. Orthodoxy does not automatically result in deep debates; committed individuals who are interested in debating are much more likely to produce deep debates, heterodox or orthodox, whatever the topic might be.
.
Yes I suppose this is true. I welcome your remarks, thank you.

Sometimes I think I spend too much time concerning myself with these issues and too little time praying.

I enjoyed reading about your involvelment in your parish. I often think I’d like to get more involved in mine, but struggle with where I might best fit in.
 
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AquinasXVI:
Let’s use Mother Teresa’s order…they have tons of “rules” like offer your entire being in serving God, each person is a child of God, wear a poor habit that reflects the humility of Christ, get up early work and pray all day then go to bed tired. etc etc. All of these allow them to love greater than without it.

Priestly celibacy is a rule that allows this man who promises to serve his bride the Church from the moment he gets up until he sleeps. If he had a wife and say 3 children, how much time does he have to take care of a parish of 300 families between shuttleing them from one soccer game to the ballet lessons? Again, this celibacy rule allows a man who vows to love God more time and committment to serve.

Great thread.

in XT.
I would also mention the eschatological sign that celibacy provides: in heaven, we will not be married to each other, but will be in the union of which marriage is only a foretaste: intimate union with God. Priests and religious show this here on earth. On top of this, of course, is the fact that both Jesus and Paul recommend it for some. So, magicsilence, do you really think Jesus and Paul would recommend something that is a hindrance to loving others?
 
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Mijoy2:
Yes I suppose this is true. I welcome your remarks, thank you.

Sometimes I think I spend too much time concerning myself with these issues and too little time praying.

I enjoyed reading about your involvelment in your parish. I often think I’d like to get more involved in mine, but struggle with where I might best fit in.
Mijoy, you will be amazed at just how much goes on in your standard parish. Parish involvement is part of the “main course” of Chrsitian life, not an optional dessert, and if you just get a taste you will probably find that involvement in your parish brings you great satisfaction and joy. Plus, it’s a great way to get to know others. Part of the lack of peace you mention might be that part of you that senses a need to do SOMETHING, but isn’t being satisfied. You should talk to your priest and ask about what you can do. If he’s not as connected as he should be, talk to someone on the parish council. DO something, and you might just find it easier to pray as well: serving others will enhance your spiritual life.
 
what we do have too much of is rules that are not really rules. In other words, people who should be representing Christ and His Church by virtue of their vocation, profession or even volunteer status, instead set up petty rules which do not have their source in the commandments, the teachings of Christ, or the doctrines and disciplines of the Catholic Church. For instance, many parishes turn away prospective parents from baptizing their child because they are not formally registered in the parish or are not married in the Church. Neither is a requirement of Church law, although in the latter case the pastor may prudentially delay the baptism until such time as he is assured the child will be raised Catholic. When the rule is a good one, is Church law, and must be enforced, it must also be explained and the catechetical opportunity used to bring people closer to union with the Church, not to condemn or drive them away.

Another example is simply the way parish secretaries and staff deal with people who come to the parish office seeking assistance, either with practical needs like bills, food, medical care, or with spiritual needs like anointing of the sick, funerals etc. Every single person I know who works in a parish complains that the dogmatic way parish offices are run usually results in more people being turned away, than being helped.
 
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cheddarsox:
Magicsilence,

Do you remember learning to drive a car. At first it takes all your energy and concentration. You check every mirror, keep the radio off lest it distract you, at each stop sign you are trying to recall the rule about who goes first, etc. etc.

Or the first day on a new job, it is just overwhelming! So much to remember. Then at the end of the day you lay in bed and think “oh no, I didn’t file form wyr in the right drawer, i wonder if they’ll fire me, I wonder if the company will go under because of my vast stupidity!”

But after a while, it starts to sort itself out. You begin to get into the flow of things. You internalize the rules and traditions. You can turn the radio on.

At work, you come to understand your role in the company, that there are checks and balances in the system, that it is Ok not to rush back at midnight to refile that form correctly, it’ll be there in the morning and you can take care of it.

I think that Catholicism can be like that. We can endlessly worry and fret over the details, and at first, or at stressful times, many people do. But hopefully, a person will grow into their faith, gain a better understanding of their role in the divine relationship, know when to let God be God and when to take action themselves. That is part of the process.

The rules are there as a safety net, a procedure that is meant to help. If we have to carry the prodedures manual with us at all times, and stop and look every action up, the manual becomes a hindrence. But is we internalize the basic ideas and familiarize ourselves with our place in the set up, most of the time we “know” what the course of action is, and if in doubt, we can go check the manual.

Dieter’s can attest to the fact that going on a diet makes you focus on food to an obsessive level. Many people end up eating more on a diet, because the obsessive focus on food and what they cant or shouldn’t have sets off a binge.

The same can happen in our lives. When we focus on the rules and regulations sooo much, we can get a little crazy over it. We can start to see “near occasions to sin” everywhere. Scrupulousity can cripple a person. The lists of “shan’ts” can make us think of doing things we never would have considered if left to our own devices.

There are some personalities that are more subject to this than others.

For some the rules are the most attractive part of the faith, for others the overwhelming love of the father is what they come for. Both are valid and available to all, at all times. The father has an arm to hug with and an arm to chastise with. If you crawl into his lap he can hold you close with both of them.

cheddar
I get ya.

good post.
 
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Sherlock:
You’re still not being clear: give us concrete examples. List a rule that you think keeps us from loving others; give us the Church’s reasoning behind that law; and then say why the law keeps us from loving others. Are you saying, in this post, that celibacy keeps us Catholics from loving others? Tell me the Church’s reasons, then, for having this rule, so I can know that you fully understand it. Then tell me how celibacy keeps me, as a Catholic, from loving others.

Without such examples the point of your initial post is lost. If you are just wanting to warn us not to forget to love others, then simply do so—where do the rules come in? If YOU find that the rules keep you from loving others, then perhaps you should focus on your own problems and not foist them on the Church and then blame her rules. If you would like help and suggestions from those on the list who have struggled with similar problems, by all means, ask. You need to be clearer in your question and your intent. Vagueness is a problem on a written forum: we can’t hear your tone, etc. I can’t guess at what you REALLY mean, but can only respond to what you write.
Why are you angry at me>?

I didnt ask you to respond to my “vague” thread. :confused:
 
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