Too many Sympathetic for SSPX

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Rich_C said:
Brother JR,

So if I understand you correctly, the first offense usually doesn’t constitute being out of “full communion” but once correction comes down from the hierarchy, an obstinate refusal to obey that command would? I think that makes sense.

This is why I tend to stick to pre-conciliar explanations of the faith, they are so much clearer to me. Thanks for shedding light on the status of the SSPX and others.

v/r
Rich
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That’s right. If I do a tap dance at mass, it’s not a break with the Church. If the bishop commands me to stop and I refuse to do so, then I have broken communion.

Notice, the bishop must issue an order. Calling me on the telephone and telling me to stop tap dancing is not an order. The Church has a defined procedure for issuing orders. They must be issued in writing. Only the pope can issue verbal orders that are binding.

Once the bishop puts in on paper, I must stop tap dancing or I’m out of communion and he can suspend me for that.

Fortunately for me, I don’t know how to tap dance. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
We have to pray for them. This is not easy on them. Even after full communion, the road ahead will be hard. Trust is a very hard thing to gain. There is a lot of mutual distrust between the SSPX and the mainstream Catholic. There is enough fault on both sides to go around the globe at least twice.
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This is very true, brother, and I thank you for pointing it out. It will be a tough road for the SSPX, especially because of the issue of trust. And I’m glad that you emphasized that fault lies on both sides, not just on one. Both sides need to recognize this for reconciliation, and if one side tries to be “holier-than-thou” than the reconciliation will take much longer and be more painful.
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ProVobis said:
If I can add something, it seems as if an excommunication is easier to lift than a public humiliation. How does one erase that? The excommunication has been so implanted in the public image that many clergy, laity, and much of news media still call anything associated with SSPX schismatic. Just saying.
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You know, I was just thinking that if/when the regularization of the SSPX occurs, we’ll have to bug the moderators of CAF to change the posts, answers, etc about the SSPX to reflect their changed status 🙂
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EcceAgnusDei said:
You know, I was just thinking that if/when the regularization of the SSPX occurs, we’ll have to bug the moderators of CAF to change the posts, answers, etc about the SSPX to reflect their changed status 🙂
  • PAX
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Nah. It will be a good historical record. I still see some posts on the "indult’ Mass, back when there were very few TLMs.
 
TrueLight said:
Nah. It will be a good historical record. I still see some posts on the Motu Proprio and the "indult’ Mass. 🙂
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You’re right, keep the old ones, but make notes that it has changed and post the new ones. I’d hate to have someone want to attend the SSPX, search CAF, and come up with an old “answer” that says they can’t.

Obviously I’m betting that the SSPX will be regularized very soon… 🙂
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Let’s just put my little stamp on the old posts. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
We have to pray for them. This is not easy on them. Even after full communion, the road ahead will be hard. Trust is a very hard thing to gain. There is a lot of mutual distrust between the SSPX and the mainstream Catholic. There is enough fault on both sides to go around the globe at least twice.
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You have no idea of how much prayer is needed. For the priests, yes; but the laity involved with them need more prayers that you’ll ever know. Many of them will formally split with the Church. Even I am astounded at the hardness of their hearts. But the truth is, the SSPX created the monster, and now it is out of control and cannot be stopped. You can’t even reason with them, as they are too stirred up at the moment.

So, do pray for them, that somehow, someway, grace will touch them enough so that they realize what they will be risking by going into formal schism. They’re convinced they are right.
 
Lormar said:
You have no idea of how much prayer is needed. For the priests, yes; but the laity involved with them need more prayers that you’ll ever know. Many of them will formally split with the Church. Even I am astounded at the hardness of their hearts. But the truth is, the SSPX created the monster, and now it is out of control and cannot be stopped. You can’t even reason with them, as they are too stirred up at the moment.

So, do pray for them, that somehow, someway, grace will touch them enough so that they realize what they will be risking by going into formal schism. They’re convinced they are right.
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I pray for the laity attached to the SSPX daily. They don’t realize the mess that they have created. I sometimes wonder who has done more damage, the Archbishop by ordaining the four bishops or the laity who can’t be civil.

I was reading something on another site. I was astonished to see several posts by laymen claiming that Bishop Fellay “owes us an explanation.” My initial reaction was, “Says who?”

Since when to superiors general owe anyone explanations, especially people who are incorporated into his institute? I could not fathom the sense of ownership that these folks were displaying.

The bishops made the same mistake that the mainstream bishops have made. They allowed everyone to have too much voice and now they can’t control the crowd.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I pray for the laity attached to the SSPX daily. They don’t realize the mess that they have created. I sometimes wonder who has done more damage, the Archbishop by ordaining the four bishops or the laity who can’t be civil.

I was reading something on another site. I was astonished to see several posts by laymen claiming that Bishop Fellay “owes us an explanation.” My initial reaction was, “Says who?”

Since when to superiors general owe anyone explanations, especially people who are incorporated into his institute? I could not fathom the sense of ownership that these folks were displaying.

The bishops made the same mistake that the mainstream bishops have made. They allowed everyone to have too much voice and now they can’t control the crowd.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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Brother JR,

I’ve said this before, but it may help to understand that the laity are being formed by these priests with daily sermons, instructions for communion, the SSPX website etc.

Some of the laity have made tremendous sacrifices to attend SSPX masses exclusively, especially when some are told that attending a Novus Ordo is sinful. In fact, some are told that even an “indult” mass, has dubious consecrations. This means that some of them are not attending mass with any family members that are SSPX, baptisms etc.

So therefore, it can be problematic when suddenly, the perspective changes and I completely understand the feeling of needing an explanation even if technically, the leadership does not have to give one.

I know the trend is to portray the laity as not having any rights or say when it comes to the Church, but of course I don’t agree.

The SSPX laity really do need prayer.
 
JReducation said:
The bishops made the same mistake that the mainstream bishops have made. They allowed everyone to have too much voice and now they can’t control the crowd.
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This is the great conundrum of the contemporary traditionalist. Traditionally, a lay Catholic would have not had access to (or understanding of) Papal encyclicals, Council documents, etc. I also wonder how many blogs and forums and whatnot would have been put on the index. There’s also the issue of publishing opinions on the internet that do not have an nihil obstat or an imprimatur. Yet in this information age, everyone has access to info and everyone has a voice. That is democracy (in a sense) and democracy, when it comes to Church issues (I’ll not go into politics here except to say “bring back the Catholic Monarchs!” giggle) is definitely not traditional.

I wonder sometimes if the effects of the internet are comparable to the effects of the printing press which really helped fuel the protestant revolt.
  • PAX
 
JReducation said:
I pray for the laity attached to the SSPX daily. They don’t realize the mess that they have created. I sometimes wonder who has done more damage, the Archbishop by ordaining the four bishops or the laity who can’t be civil.

I was reading something on another site. I was astonished to see several posts by laymen claiming that Bishop Fellay “owes us an explanation.” My initial reaction was, “Says who?”

Since when to superiors general owe anyone explanations, especially people who are incorporated into his institute? I could not fathom the sense of ownership that these folks were displaying.

The bishops made the same mistake that the mainstream bishops have made. They allowed everyone to have too much voice and now they can’t control the crowd.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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Brother, if you only knew how much I thought of what you have taught me as I was trying to talk to many of them.

I agree - they think that they are not only owed an explanation from Bishop Fellay on this, but many other things as well. Furthermore, they think they have the right to view all of the correspondence and to be made privy to everything, and I do mean everything, that has been said during the meetings with the CDF.

As if all of this isn’t bad enough, the things that they are saying about him are over the top. I am so afraid for them. However, again I will say, they are absolutely convinced that they are right, and no one, I don’t believe even a personal visit from Our Lord or Our Blessed Mother, can tell them otherwise.

Really, it has been an eye-opener even for me as to the damage that has been done over the past forty years.
 
TrueLight said:
Brother JR,

I’ve said this before, but it may help to understand that the laity are being formed by these priests with daily sermons, instructions for communion, the SSPX website etc.
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This is very true. In my experience, the SSPX are more formed than the general laity (and I’ll leave aside the issue of the direction of that formation as to not derail the thread).
Some of the laity have made tremendous sacrifices to attend SSPX masses exclusively, especially when some are told that attending a Novus Ordo is sinful. In fact, some are told that even an “indult” mass, has dubious consecrations. This means that some of them are not attending mass with any family members that are SSPX, baptisms etc.
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So therefore, it can be problematic when suddenly, the perspective changes and I completely understand the feeling of needing an explanation even if technically, the leadership does not have to give one.
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While I don’t have personal experience of this (since I am a fairly new Catholic), I can see it in those who attend the same SSPX chapel as I, especially those who have been at that chapel for decades. They’ve been told one thing for so many years, and now it* appears* to be something different. It would be helpful for them to know the details of the apparent change.
I know the trend is to portray the laity as not having any rights or say when it comes to the Church, but of course I don’t agree.
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Indeed, the laity are important. We are, after all, called “the faithful.”
I do agree with Lormar. The SSPX laity really do need prayer.
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Amen. St. Pius the Tenth, pray for us!
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Really, it has been an eye-opener even for me as to the damage that has been done over the past forty years.
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If I was the owner of the forum that was allowing this, I would shut it down for a few months. Not that I am against discussing things freely (within reason), but the things that are being written are sinful. Hard to believe there was ever a time when not one Catholic in the pew would have even thought these things, let alone say and write them.

God have mercy on us all!
 
Lormar said:
I agree - they think that they are not only owed an explanation from Bishop Fellay on this, but many other things as well. Furthermore, they think they have the right to view all of the correspondence and to be made privy to everything, and I do mean everything, that has been said during the meetings with the CDF.
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Many of the laity that attend SSPX chapels have sacrificed much in order to do so. They support the society but are officially not members (since it is a priestly society). Perhaps it would be helpful for these supporters to know what is going on so they can trust in the support they are giving. After all, the SSPX was formed to support priesthood during a crisis time in the Church.
As if all of this isn’t bad enough, the things that they are saying about him are over the top.
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I agree that there has been much hyperbole and rhetoric. But I also have to report my experiences with my own SSPX chapel; so far all statements about Bishop Fellay that I have heard have been positive.
  • PAX
 
Lormar said:
If I was the owner of the forum that was allowing this, I would shut it down for a few months. Not that I am against discussing things freely (within reason), but the things that are being written are sinful. Hard to believe there was ever a time when not one Catholic in the pew would have even thought these things, let alone say and write them.
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There have always been wheat and tares, among the faithful, among the heirarchy, from the very beginning of Christ’s ministry on earth.
God have mercy on us all!
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Kyrie eleison.
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They’ve been told one thing for so many years, and now it appears to be something different. It would be helpful for them to know the details of the apparent change.
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That is why they are angry. They are really angry with themselves the most, except they haven’t realized that yet. They’ve been duped, and they put their trust and confidence in the wrong person instead of where it belonged.

I understand why they are angry, and I don’t blame them in many ways. This development is a complete shift in the SSPX “creed”.
 
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