L
- Status
S
SusanneT
Guest
I totally agree that BOTH men and women need to dress modestly and I also agree that men are responsible for their own thoughts, but as mature adult women we know what men look for and at (if we didnāt all the soft pornography in advertising etc would soon tell us) and if we know that and if we knowingly choose to show too much, surely we know we are sinning.
Innocence is obviouly an excuse in the very young but surely by the time a girl is developed to the point that she is of interest to normal, even adolesent males she is old enough to have the facts explained to her (ideally) by her mother or father.
What I can never understand is why society seems to tollerate lower standards of modesty in younger women on the āif youāve got it show itā principle. So for example skirts aimed at teanagers and women in their early twenties arre always shorter, tops more skimpy. I know they have beautiful young bodies (after three children Iām very jealous !) which men love to look at but surely that is precisely why they should be more careful how they dress ? They are cirtainly more likely to be viewed lustfully.
My daughter is only a baby but I hope I have the strength of will to teach her that.
Innocence is obviouly an excuse in the very young but surely by the time a girl is developed to the point that she is of interest to normal, even adolesent males she is old enough to have the facts explained to her (ideally) by her mother or father.
What I can never understand is why society seems to tollerate lower standards of modesty in younger women on the āif youāve got it show itā principle. So for example skirts aimed at teanagers and women in their early twenties arre always shorter, tops more skimpy. I know they have beautiful young bodies (after three children Iām very jealous !) which men love to look at but surely that is precisely why they should be more careful how they dress ? They are cirtainly more likely to be viewed lustfully.
My daughter is only a baby but I hope I have the strength of will to teach her that.
C
Catholic41506
Guest
This stuff is common sense. Some women simply want to flaunt what they have.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Uh-huh, yes and guys like me wear hoodies because weāre off to stalk somebody.
J
JaneGrey
Guest
The points people are trying to make might actually make sense if there was not so much presumption of intention going on. I learned a while ago that assuming things rarely achieves anything good.
S
severus68
Guest
Everyone, lock up your daughters!
I do not understand why people do not realise that they are insulting men when they portray men as weak things led by their overactive gonads. I hear some men get lascivious thoughts when they see a womanās toes. So should women wear closed shoes in public? Oh heck, women don burqas and put them on your daughters too.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Itās especially worst when said assumption is based solely on looks no?
Shh! Quiet, I hear a Hunterā¦Everyone, lock up your daughters!
ā¦ oh wait, itās me. Grr.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Walking_Home,
Cordial greetings and a very good day, dear friend.
Given our innate sinfulness and evil desire, there is a two-way responsibility. We must bring our sinful and base passions into subjection by self-denial and rigorous discipline - āpurify the darkness out of our heartsā, but others must also be considerate as to their choice of apparel, so as not to unecessarily enflame passions and be the occasion of temptation in others - āthat way we wonāt be so affectedāby what a person wearsā.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
You can only either tell people what to wear and grow lazy and dependent on such enslavement or you could start cutting off the training wheels and grow up into a someone who no longer cares of whatās outside as much as he/she cares about whatās inside.
To insist on an in-between breeds nothing more than moral deadlock. In the end, only one party is accountable for lack of self-control.
See hereās the thing folks if you all insist on Portraitās collectivist argument.
If we have such a frightening and difficult innate sinfulness (and I donāt really doubt this) then such evil will eventually leak out, one way or another. It still matters not whether you ācover upā the problem. The problem will still be there.
Furthermore, the point still stands. Covering up does not teach anyone the moral of seeing people with dignity regardless of their appearances. In fact, the very moral is contradictory to the idea of making people wear and conform to your weaknesses as well as placing some moral value on something that is supposed to be superficial.
On the other hand, if you would rather acknowledge that you need to fight. If youāre willing to take responsibility, then covering up becomes significantly unnecessary because you are willing to see beyond what your eyes perceive.
D
Debora123
Guest
Please donāt judge and make false assumptions and accusations.
Going outside on a hot day and seeing women wearing standard, 21st century summer clothes doesnāt compare to being locked in a liquor store. Neither does going to the beach and seeing women in bathing suits. Locking them in a liquor store would be more comparable to locking them in a strip club or porn shop. Of course, no one here is suggesting we do that.
D
Debora123
Guest
I too, find it rather interesting that there are infinitely more threads on this forum advising women on what to wear, than there are advising men to treat all women with respect regardless of where she came from, what she does, what she wears, and what she looks like.
D
Debora123
Guest
So a man isnāt allowed to look and admire a pretty girlās figure??
Another big problem with this whole modesty thing is people canāt distinguish the difference between sexual attraction and lust.
J
jobelorocks
Guest
Although I agree that modesty is important for both men and women, I do find many men expect women to do all the work and dress up to their standards. Many in the church find what most people think of as modest as immodest. I think men need to take responsibility for their sins and not just blame it on how women are dressed. While how a man dresses may affect my thoughts, I do not blame him for any lust I have.
Lost Wanderer, you remind me of my husband when you speak this way.
Thank you for saying this, and for all your posts on this thread (as I have followed them). I think men like you come off as infinitely more respectful of women than those who expect us to cover ourselves to their particular standards in order to gain their respect. Thank you for being a REAL man and standing up and urging other men to take some responsibility.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Paxvobis,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly good posts, old chap - keep up the good work.
Those Catholic women who recalcitrantly refuse to submit to our Churchās teaching respecting modest attire, ought to remember that modesty in a woman is a sign that Jesus Christ dwells within her heart. It is a sweet perfume of edification which she is called upon to diffuse. Todayās seductive fashions such as, for example, mini-skirts and brassiair that accentuate the breasts, dishonour and corrupt a Catholic woman and are a sad sign of the sexualisation of Western culture. The aim of such tarty clothing is to seduce and arouse concupiscence, to the detriment of the souls spiritual beauty, which is surely the true goal of our lives.
What is very apparent as one reads some of the posts on this current thread, is the phenomenal impact of the moral revolution of the sixties, which set in train changes which have totally transformed the Western world altogether, changes, I will hasten to add, which have anything but advanced the cause of civilisation. Moreover, it is an undeniable fact that seductive styles of clothing, especially for young women, have played a vital part in the moral and cultural deterioration that we now witness all around us. However, what is so lamentable is that this godless and anti-Christian outlook has penetrated the walls of Holy Mother Church itself, especially in the wake of Vatican II and its new openness to the world. Thus you now have a whole new generation of neo-Catholic orthodox types who are seemingly quite happy to walk and in hand with the world, especially when it comes to such things as choice of clothing, the arts and literature. Indeed, the line of demarcation between Catholic and non-Catholic is gradually fading away, with those who indentify themselves as Catholic to often living like those who have long ago renounced this title. Women attend Holy Mass in the same shameful attire as women who never darken the doors of a church; they listen to the same unwholesome sensory material like rock/pop music and often watch the same unsavoury TV programmes and films as their pagan neighbours. However, I am deviating slightly from the topic under review, but it is, I think, nor wholly irrelevant to the present discussion.
Some insightful preacher once said in a homily on Christian modesty, āMen are lost through women and they are saved through women. By their vanity they will make a man fall; by their modesty, they will save him. The world of morality oscillates between Mary and Eve. As long as modesty is not practiced, the world will not rise from its decadenceā.
Contrary to what has been said, the text in I Samuel 16: 7 cannot be wrested from its context to support and defend the donning of immodest styles of attire. There is a definite distinction to be drawn between physical features, over which one has no control (for example in the context of the Samuel passage, countenance and height v. 6) and oneās choice of clothing. In the case of physical features one simply does not have any choice, thus, for example, a short man cannot help being short and a facially ugly woman cannot help being facially ugly. They were simply born that way. However, we do have a choice when it comes wearing or not wearing seductive clothing unbefitting a profession of godliness, and the Pauline passage over in I Timothy 2: 9 declares that that is so. Therefore, a Catholic woman who disobediently chooses to wear immodest fashions invites censure from from her fellow Catholics for trespassing the boundaries of decency and propriety. This interpetation is surely so obvious that even a blind man on a galloping horse could see it, unless, of course, he was desperate to uphold some particular theory at all costs.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
J
jobelorocks
Guest
So do you think that men donāt have the same call to live modest lives and menās lust is all womenās fault? That is what it sounds like from your post. While modesty and holiness is important, men need to take responsibility for contributing to the problem of lust and modesty. Men need to dress modestly as well. This tends to be ignored because of the stereotype that men are visual and women are not. As a woman I can say this is NOT true. I am very visualā¦ more visual than my husband that is for sure. So the way men dress DOES affect women as well. Also I do not think it is fair when men expect us not to wear shorts or non-floor length skirts during the summer. We get hot too.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Elven Maid,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
Thankyou for the above with which I fully concur. A hearty Amen!
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
D
Debora123
Guest
I love mini skirts. I must be corrupted.
And yes, I am glad you are able read my mind and know EXACTLY why I wear mini skirts, and thus proceed to make judgements on me based on mere assumptions.
J
jobelorocks
Guest
Ya I like how men make assumptions about women in regards with modesty. It is infuriating.
S
severus68
Guest
What is also sad about this whole thing is that some forget that it is possible to admire the beauty/looks of a man or a woman without having lustful thoughts. We are told that men however are in essence so weak that they cannot control themselves at the sight of the bare skin of a woman. Then there are those who decide how much bare skin is permissable. Since references have been made to admonishments made in 1921, I assume Victorian dress would be acceptable, specifically the kind worn by Queen Victoria after the death of her husband.
J
jobelorocks
Guest
Amen to that. Although modesty is a virtue, some men use modesty to control women, or use women as a scapegoat for their sins. I had a boyfriend in the past that tried to use modesty to control me. He complained that since I wore skirts I was immodest and that if I ever wore nice clothing it must be me trying to attract all these men. Not true. I just like dressing nicely. I think that men need to take responsibility for their actions.
- Status