Top 5 Reasons People Think You Aren't Catholic

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  1. We are autonomous, self-governing (sui iuris), particular churches, with parishes in the Latin Diocese territory but we are not in that Diocese. (Our Russian Greek Catholic parishes being an exception— we are autonomous, sui iuris, particular churches, however the local Latin bishops/archbishop is our heirarch.)
  2. We call our deacons “Father”.
  3. Our babies receive Eucharist.
  4. We prostrate on the floor “like Muslims”
  5. We sing “Alleluia” all though Great Lent.
    Lent begins on a Monday and we celebrate Pascha on a date different from the Latin Church which is the same as the Orthodox.
 
1.)Cradle Eastern Catholics rarely talk about “Latinizations.” Most under 60 don’t remember them or were never exposed.
I am a “cradle” Eastern Catholic.

I am well under 60.

I grew up in a parish with a married priest, somewhat of an experiment in that day and age, after a hurtful and damaging purge of the married priesthood in the generation past. This priest eventually had to turn to Orthodoxy, as the condition of married (with children) priesthood was simply not supported within a Catholic framework at that time. I always felt as if I had benefitted from being in that parish at that time. Both Father, Pani (which is what we would called the wife of the priest in our tradition) and their three daughters always treated me as if I were part of their family. I even considered the priesthood for a long time as a result of my exposure to Father on a more personal level. He is actually responsible for fostering no less than three vocations (one priest and two permanent deacons), not counting my own vocation as a cantor and choir director. All from a mission parish of less than 50 families.

I grew up in a predominately Roman Catholic neighborhood, quite close to my cousins (mother’s side) who were all raised in the Roman Catholic Church. We would attend Mass at the neighborhood parish on many occasions. Yet, we always had to explain and “prove” that we were really Catholic. To his credit, the ordinarily rather conservative senior pastor of that parish understood and was very supportive. My siblings all attended parochial school there, and he freely offered the diocesan tuition rate to my parents (as we were Catholic and had no access to parochial schools through our own parish). He would hear my confession personally on Saturday mornings, in Eastern style, using Byzantine Rite prayers. Unfortunately, he was the only person outside my immediate extended family who actually did know we were, indeed, Catholic.

My first born child was the first in our Eparchy to be received into the Church via the full Rites of Christian Initiation, restored in 1997. Both sides of my family were astonished by this. Why? Because of course on the Roman Catholic side, First Holy Communion and Confirmation are reserved for future instance. The administration of First Eucharist was most surprising to them. Many didn’t even realize that those of my generation were also Chrismated/Confirmed at Baptism. On the Eastern Catholic side of the family, the generation before me was so Latinized that many did not understand that this was, in fact, our proper tradition.

It was only in 1997 that the proper form of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed was restored, and the previously inserted Filioque was removed from the text. The younger folks had no idea, The older folks thought we were becoming Orthodox and were rejecting our Catholicity. Why? Because they grew up in an era where to Latinize was to prove one was Catholic. It had for their generation become a matter of survival in the Catholic world.

So, while we may not speak of Latinizations (at least not nearly as publicly and often as Roman Catholics discuss issues in their Church), we under 60 have certainly become well aware of them as our traditions are restored.
 
Marie,

The great mystics of the West, including Aquinas, have always served as a wonderful antidote to a theology that at times has had a tendency to become overly-rational. .
I find it interesting you say this, I have a friend that continually states he does not need emotions or feelings, we have intellect and will, that feelings are unnecessary, have nothing to do with things like love and compassion, it’s all logic, no feeling, and spouts St. Thomas like a broken record to back himself up.

While I know that he has some things in his past that are making him flee from any type of relationship and his own feelings----I find your above statement interesting!
 
I assumed Eastern Catholic Churches were Orthodox on a couple occasions when I was quite young, for no other reason than the fact that the architecture looked similar. Since about 1995 or 1996 when I went to my first Divine Liturgy, I’ve never had the slightest reason to suspect they weren’t Catholic.
 
So, while we may not speak of Latinizations (at least not nearly as publicly and often as Roman Catholics discuss issues in their Church), we under 60 have certainly become well aware of them as our traditions are restored.
ByzCathCantor,

Can you, or others, expound on this more? What are you speaking of when you mean “Latinizations”

Are you saying that the Easter Catholic Churches changing their traditions to be “more Latin”, to fit in, to be accepted and approved?

How incredibly sad. 😦

What is it about human nature where we run, look down upon or afraid that which is different from us?

I look all around me, at the diversity of nature it very self, and I see a God who delights in the diversity of beauty to make Himself known to us.
 
My first born child was the first in our Eparchy to be received into the Church via the full Rites of Christian Initiation, restored in 1997. Both sides of my family were astonished by this.
I’m astonished that your Eparchy didn’t restore that practice until the 90s. :(/🙂
Why? Because of course on the Roman Catholic side, First Holy Communion and Confirmation are reserved for future instance.
And, in most dioceses, First Communion *precedes *Confirmation. 😦
 
ByzCathCantor,

Can you, or others, expound on this more? What are you speaking of when you mean “Latinizations”

Are you saying that the Easter Catholic Churches changing their traditions to be “more Latin”, to fit in, to be accepted and approved?

How incredibly sad. 😦

What is it about human nature where we run, look down upon or afraid that which is different from us?

I look all around me, at the diversity of nature it very self, and I see a God who delights in the diversity of beauty to make Himself known to us.
Good questions, but it’s a pretty long story. Short version: the Eastern Catholic Churches became more “Latin” as we say, over many years. But since Vatican II, there has been a lot of returning to tradition.
 
For those who want thoughtful insight into Aquinas and scholastic theology in the Wast and East, search for posting of member Ghosty, who is highly educated and knowledgeable on these subjects. What been posted on this thread, I think, misses the mark widely,

For example, the comments on transubstantiation:
i.e. that the “substance” is what is changed while the “matter” stays the same. Although the East, both Catholic and Orthodox, accept the reality that such language is trying to explain - i.e. that Christ is truly present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist - it does not embrace the language nor try to explain how such a mystery is accomplished
first misstates the Catholic dogma, then completely misapprehends the point of the dogma, which is about affirming the true and complete presence, notwithstaning appearances; it has never been about how. Finally, there is also a misapprehension of the Orthodox position on this issue. When confronted with Calvinism, Orthodoxy had adopted, at least for that moment, the precisely the same language as the West. it remains to be seen what will happen in America, with som many poorly trained clergy whose antipathy to “transubstantiation”: leads them to adopt very interesting contorted positions.
. One could say that the East, as a general rule, does not “pick apart” the mystery; we simply live it.
One could say it, but it is just sloganeering. It overlooks all of the “picky” theologizing and dogmatizing in the East, it overlooks all of the great mystics of the West - among whom count Aquinas. And this mysticism is not and antidote, but part of the same lived tradition.
 
I personally believe that the key factor in the prevention of union between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church is most definitely the negative treatment of the Eastern Catholic Rites by Roman Catholics, both from the clergy and the laity.
Sorry, but you could not be more wrong about this.

The Greek Catholic churches are very much an impediment to union, but not at all for the reason you suggest. Your impression may come from taking the American experience as more significant that it merits. In the universal scheme of things, it is the very existence of Greek Catholic churches that is opposed by the Orthodox. How they are Greek Catholic churches are treated by Rome is immaterial - they are opposed in essence.

A breakthrough was made in Balamand, where the Orthodox signers for the first time agreed that Greek Catholic churches have a right to exist. This part of the agreement was harshly criticized within the Orthodox world; and the agreement has become a dead letter among the Orthodox.
 
For those who want thoughtful insight into Aquinas and scholastic theology in the Wast and East, search for posting of member Ghosty, who is highly educated and knowledgeable on these subjects. What been posted on this thread, I think, misses the mark widely,

For example, the comments on transubstantiation:
** first misstates the Catholic dogma, then completely misapprehends the point of the dogma, which is about affirming the true and complete presence, notwithstaning appearances; it has never been about how.** Finally, there is also a misapprehension of the Orthodox position on this issue. When confronted with Calvinism, Orthodoxy had adopted, at least for that moment, the precisely the same language as the West. it remains to be seen what will happen in America, with som many poorly trained clergy whose antipathy to “transubstantiation”: leads them to adopt very interesting contorted positions.

One could say it, but it is just sloganeering. It overlooks all of the “picky” theologizing and dogmatizing in the East, it overlooks all of the great mystics of the West - among whom count Aquinas. And this mysticism is not and antidote, but part of the same lived tradition.
I haven’t read the full excerpt, but I’m not sure if what is quoted necessarily misrepresents the teaching on transubstantiation. It depends on if would we speak of physical matter as being an accident. If so, it would not be erroneous to state that the host retains its physical matter while changing substances (a substance being the incorporeal ‘thing’ for lack of a better term that is the being of something). While avoiding the terminology of substance/accident, the council of Trent does still mention that the species do not change, but the substance does, if I am remembering correctly, which hints at the same teaching in a less Aristotelian manner.

This definition of course is just explaining the obvious, that what we see, taste, smell, touch (presumably even look at under a microscope or with chemical analysis, with the reservation that such an action would be utterly blasphemous), etc., appears to be ordinary bread and wine, but is in fact the body and blood of Christ without getting into how the change happens.
 
I’m astonished that your Eparchy didn’t restore that practice until the 90s. :(/🙂
Such was both the extent of Latinization in our particular Church, and the fear of attempting to restore traditions earlier (I regrettably use the word fear rather aptly).

It was not until the Congregration for Eastern Churches published, in 1996, the Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches that our Metropolia felt comfortable moving with purpose and confidence.

FWIW - the Melkite Bishop of Newton (MA, USA) just issued, last month, a pastoral letter to move further in this direction, asking the the practice of First Solemn Penance w/ Corporate Communion (a practice adopted in many parishes after the Rites of Initiation were restored) also be discontinued.

For people who have not lived through the era of suppression of these Churches cannot fully appreciate how effective they were, in some regards, Its taken some brave bishops and priests who, at the risk of losing faithful parishioners, to reintroduce these traditions.
And, in most dioceses, First Communion *precedes *Confirmation. 😦
Yes, I fully understand and am aware - indeed I too had my First Holy Communion (in my Eastern Catholic parish) at age 8 (second grade), but had already been confirmed (as was the modified practice at the time). I was prepared using the Baltimore Catechism (how about that for being “Latinized”, although I do now appreciate as a Catholic adult that I had that experience and exposure). My cousins went on to be confirmed in 7th grade (age 13-14).
 
Yes, I fully understand and am aware - indeed I too had my First Holy Communion (in my Eastern Catholic parish) at age 8 (second grade), but had already been confirmed (as was the modified practice at the time).
🙂
I was prepared using the Baltimore Catechism (how about that for being “Latinized”, although I do now appreciate as a Catholic adult that I had that experience and exposure). My cousins went on to be confirmed in 7th grade (age 13-14).
Yikes. 😦
 
I assumed Eastern Catholic Churches were Orthodox on a couple occasions when I was quite young, for no other reason than the fact that the architecture looked similar. Since about 1995 or 1996 when I went to my first Divine Liturgy, I’ve never had the slightest reason to suspect they weren’t Catholic.
Other than a couple of the litanies (commemorating Patriarch / Metropolitan vs. Pope), you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between an Eastern Catholic church and Divine Liturgy and that of their Orthodox counterpart (of the same tradition). Thankfully, that is now by design!
 
What are you speaking of when you mean “Latinizations”. Are you saying that the Easter Catholic Churches changing their traditions to be “more Latin”, to fit in, to be accepted and approved?

How incredibly sad. 😦
Yes, Marie, indeed that was the case. In fairness, there were both voluntary and involuntary Latinizations, but it all started in large part with objections from Latin hierarchs and subsequent instructions from Rome. The married priesthood in particular proved most problematic, as emigrants who left their native lands called upon their former bishops to send priests to their new countries. The presence of married priests in predominantly Roman Catholic territories, like the United States, was met with great scandal. The rest, as they say, is history, with many Latinizations being self imposed in order to once again “fit in” as Catholics among a majority Roman Catholic population of faithful.

Married priesthood was essentially banned in the U.S., as was the practice of full rites of initiation, by instruction from Rome. In fact, only with great struggle was the practice of baptism with chrismation/confirmation allowed as a compromise restoration. These issues actually caused a “separation” right here in America, with thousands fleeing to Orthodoxy. Many families were split over the issue, with some remaining Catholic and others returning to Orthodoxy. All told, a very damaging scenario in many ways.

The wounds are just beginning to heal, as some of the timeline in these posts suggests, and largely due to the influence of recent Pontiffs starting with Pope Pius, but especially Blessed John Paul II, who spoke boldy (and characteristically) about the importance of the Eastern Churches. As we know, he even going so far as to urge that we Catholics come to know the Light of the East not just through the Eastern Catholic Churches in Communion with Rome, but also through exchange with and witness of the Orthodox Churches. For this any so many more of the gifts of his Papacy, we are truly ever indebted and pray “Eternal Memory” for him and all his predecessors who supported the Eastern Catholic Churches! We are ever thankful for Pope Benedict XVI’s continuing commitment and support! May God grant him may more blessed years!
 
ByzCathCantor
That has not been my experience at all, other than with one parish I visited once. The rest were clearly not Orthodox, though I've seen pews in most Orthodox churches I've visited.
 
Since I had no reason to question Peter’s comments, I didn’t click to “chiesa,” however, upon reading the comments by xzereus, I went back and did so. Near the top of the page the site carries the tag, “News, analysis, and documents on the Catholic Church, by Sandro Magister, Rome.”

So, was this guy? His education, life endeavors, and clues to his thinking can be found by clicking “Who We Are: This site and its creator.” At the bottom of that article, click on @The Pope’s Prognosticator" to read about his credibility as seen by Foreign Policy, an American magazine.

I can’t find any suggestion of “criminality.” Facts, history, discussion of controversial issues, and differing viewpoints in analysis of political, religious, and cultural issues are what they are. If they exist, they exist. Avoiding them because they might make us uncomfortable in some way doesn’t erase their existence. Careful consideration, keeping in mind the teachings of the Church, so that we are less apt to go astray and endanger our souls, is necessary for us to have an accurate picture of the world around us and our places in it. To do otherwise is to subscribe to revisionist “history.”
 
Guess I`m not the only Byzantine Catholic here who had the Baltimore Catechism, but that was in the sixties
 
I’m astonished that your Eparchy didn’t restore that practice until the 90s.
This really is not astonishing. And it’s not just a wanna-fit-in Latinization - if there is such a thing. I don’t think ACROD made this restoration until the 1980’s.

It is not clear, to me, or to those whom I’ve asked, what, exactly, was the practice of, say a few centuries ago. Communion was infrequent, in particular among the Slavs. So while an infant may have receive communion at baptism, it is not at all clear that they would continue to receive regularly. Would their parents fully expect them to participate in an arduous preparation - including confession - for communion? Would that be considered too arduous, and thus the children would not communicate?

Now everything is different. People commune frequently. Preparation is not so arduous, One poster here said that a certain deacon advised that no sin is so great that one should refrain from approaching the chalice without prior confession. :eek: We also have the very new idea in contemporary American Orthodoxy that children should be left free to wander and act out against their parents in whatever manner during the liturgy, then be brought up to communion. I can tell you that, however wonderful parents find this, others are scandalized by it.

IMO, the question of restoring the ancient practice was muddled first by the terribly poor relations with the Orthodox. The idea of doing something because it is more Orthodox had zero traction for a long, long time - and still evokes some negativity. Later, as those issues waned, we entered an era of frequent communion in which it clearly seemed that something was amiss. Is there a possibility that a child can receive unworthily? Is this something that parents need to be mindful of? I suspect that it will take some time for us to get through those issues.
 
  1. We are autonomous, self-governing (sui iuris), particular churches, with parishes in the Latin Diocese territory but we are not in that Diocese. (Our Russian Greek Catholic parishes being an exception— we are autonomous, sui iuris, particular churches, however the local Latin bishops/archbishop is our heirarch.)
  2. We call our deacons “Father”.
  3. Our babies receive Eucharist.
  4. We prostrate on the floor “like Muslims”
  5. We sing “Alleluia” all though Great Lent.
    Lent begins on a Monday and we celebrate Pascha on a date different from the Latin Church which is the same as the Orthodox.
Not around here (Byzantine Ruthenian.) We refer to our deacons as “deacon”, not “father” or “deacon father.” While our Lent begins on Monday our Easter Sunday is the same as the Latin Rite.
 
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