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Soutane
Guest
I’ll second that.Sister should be hanging her head in shame.I am deloghted that American nuns are being investigated by the Vatican.Francis Cardinal George: prelate and vertebrate. May God bless him!
Top Catholic Bishop Blames Catholic Health Association for Pro-Abortion HCR
- Status
S
Soutane
Guest
So the answer is do nothing?,Think before speaking.
I
Inhimthroughher
Guest
No the answer is to handle problems before they become large like this. And to actually do something instead of passing blame.
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Soutane
Guest
Armchair quarterbacking.20-20 hindsight.Want more?Something is being done NOW.Better late than never right.?Catholics should support their shepherds especially when they cast away political correctness and do something bold for a change.The FLOCK has.been demanding it and they are responding.Look at Cardinal Oullett in Ottawa
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catharina
Guest
Moaning and groaning is SO counter-productive.
How about a round of “Deo gratias!”
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Inhimthroughher
Guest
My point is that he needs to do something other than just complain. Bishops placing the blame on the flock does not show leadership. To show true leadership and a backbone he could have said something like.
This legislation along with the participation and support of it by catholics, religious and lay, shows that things have gotten out of control. We as bishops are in charge of shepherding Christ’s flock here on earth, and must take responsibility for correcting this problem.To begin to correct this situation I want to make it perfectly clear to all. Pro-abortion politicians are not an option for any catholic who wants to stay in communion with the Church. Any politician who votes for abortion legislation or anyone who votes for a politician who intends to do so is excommunicated until they repent. We will begin to teach the evils of abortion and the combat the two main causes of abortion, fornication and contraception. These will be taught in education programs mentioned in homilies and workshops will be given at parishes. …
Admiting the problem is good. My problem is the blaming of others, not taking responsibility, and no plan to fix it.
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catharina
Guest
Yet the Cardinal is correct in ascribing blame.
Perhaps we can be forewarned re any “charitable donations” to such in the future.
The last-minute, ugly switch of allegiance by CHA from Church to obama was awful.
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Inhimthroughher
Guest
This is something we will just have to disagree on. The CHA is to blame but so are the bishops. Years of passiveness on the issues I have mentioned, abortion, contraception, and fornication, along with allowing the scandal of pro-aborton “catholics” (lay and religious) receiving the ultimate sign of communion-the Eucharist- with Christ and the Church,have brought us to this point.
I hope the lesson has been learned and we will see action taken. Words are good but ring hollow unless followed by action. The bishops are giiven charge over His Church and must do everything possible to Shepherd it.
Enjoy your Sunday.
God bless.
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catharina
Guest
In the here-and-now, the Bishops spoke very clearly against obamacare.
The Bishops continue to do so.
The nun-members of CHA spoke for obamacare.
These women continue to do so.
The sides are clearly drawn by the actions of each group.
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Soutane
Guest
These nuns were warned and they went ahead and did it their way.They deserve severe chastisement and investigation by the Vatican.Todays gospel was about picking up one’s cross and following Him.These nuns should not be OUR cross.
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Inhimthroughher
Guest
Yes they should be excommunicated along with many others. We will await to see if the bishops take action or only talk.
P
ProVobis
Guest
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catharina
Guest
Y
YADA
Guest
No, I do not want my Bishop to do what I want him to do. I want him to do what is right , in accordance with Chruch teaching … and to ensure that Catholics are not confused as to what the Church teaches …
I also expect that the Bishops will treat all people fairly [and that their priests do as well] … so if one person can be publically denied the Eucharist then all persons known to be in open rebellion to church teaching should be denied the Eucharist… Since I have personallly witnssed this injustice … As I said - I witnessed a preist actually denying a person the Eucharist and the watched this same priest in a TV interview state that an openly pro-abortion catholic candidate should not be denied the Eucharist …
I support and pray for my Bishop daily … but the Bishops have done a disservice to themselves, to the Church, to those they Shephard and to the Gospel when they allow the pro-abortion lobby and pro-abortion catholics dictate their response - no matter how ‘personally’ pro-life they are … that is exactly th attitude that allows a catholic politician to use the phrase … “I am personally ppro-life but cannot use my position to force my beliefs on others” … Well ‘beliefs’ is not what the taking of a human life is … it is not a ‘catholic’ belief that abortion is evil … Science tells us that the infant in the womb is human and alive at the time of conception. An entrinsically evil action is always and forever and for every person regradless of creed or race and evil action.
As the scirptures tell us … God prefers for us to be either hot or cold with zeal for God or enmity - we are not be luke warm. The scripture say the one who is lukwarm God will vomit forth from his presence …
I want my Bishop to be Hot for the Lord,full of Zeal …I do not want a Bishop who is luke warm
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catharina
Guest
Since the Catholic Church stands alone against abortion in this country, and since there
seems to be “more” you want from our bishops considering a case “known” personally
to you, it seems to me you should be contacting your bishop - not CA re this.
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Sherry_G
Guest
When you personally witnessed your priest denying a parishoner reception of Jesus in the Eucharist, the person denied had commited a mortal sin by only attending Mass every other week - at least that was what your earlier post alluded to. The priest was doing his job correctly to deny this person in a state of mortal sin per Church teachings.
The priest does not have power over every comment made or belief held by every single Catholic. Nowhere is that teaching expounded in my CCC. Priests do not “police” every Catholic who makes a statement. No conscientious Catholic would dare receive Holy Communion while in the state of mortal sin. We excommunicate ourselves when we participate in abortion. Your criticisms of all bishops is misguided to say the least. As stated by other posters, the Catholic Church is firmly opposed to abortion as you well know. Your expectations are unreasonable. No "blanket excommunications will be forthcoming under suspicion that persons supporting abortion in theory have not repented. That would be a “police state” environment in our beautiful Catholic church. Please be realistic. Pray for our bishops but spare the judgemental whining please.
I
Inhimthroughher
Guest
The vidoe we just watched shows the Cardinal saying that he, along with the Pope and even a child receiving their first communion know pro-aborts should not be recieving communion. There was a letter sent to Bbshops by Now Pope Benedict stating they should be denied the Eucharist because they are not in communion with the Church. If bishops are not obeying the Church they are not doing their jobs. There is on denying that.
Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion. General Principles tldm.org/news7/Ratzinger.htm
by Joseph Ratzinger
Quotes from Archbishop Burke. (this article catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31984
"Among the US bishops directly to address the issue, Archbishop Burke was one of around a dozen who vigorously supported a directive of the Vatican that said pro-abortion Catholic politicians “must be refused” Holy Communion if they attempt to receive at Mass. Others have refused to abide by the Vatican instruction and the Church’s own Code of Canon Law, saying they would rather focus on “education” of such politicians.
Archbishop Burke called “nonsense” the accusation, regularly made by some bishops, that refusing Holy Communion “makes the Communion rail a [political] battle ground”. In fact, he said, the precise opposite is true. The politician who insists on being seen receiving Holy Communion, despite his opposition to the Church’s central teachings, is using that reception for political leverage."
“The Holy Eucharist, the most sacred reality of our life in the Church, has to be protected against sacrilege. At the same time, individuals have to be protected for the sake of their own salvation from committing one of the gravest sins, namely to receive Holy Communion unworthily.”
Archbishop Burke also dismissed the commonly proffered excuse that such politicians need more “education”. Speaking from his own direct experience, he said that Catholic politicians who are informed by their pastors or bishops that their positions in support of pro-abortion legislation makes it impossible for them to receive Holy Communion, “I’ve always found that they don’t come forward.”
“When you talk to these people, they know,” he said. “They know what they’re doing is very wrong. They have to answer to God for that, but why through our pastoral negligence add on to that, that they have to answer to God for who knows how many unworthy receptions of Holy Communion?”
Archbishop Burke said that the issue had been debated enough.** He rejected the idea that the matter should be left to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, saying the Conference has no authority in the matter. “This is a law of the universal Church and it should be applied.” **
“I think this argument too is being used by people who don’t want to confront the issue, this whole 'wait ‘til the Conference decides’…well the Conference has been discussing this since at least 2004. And nothing happens.”
When asked what the solution was, he responded, "Individual bishops and priests simply have to do their duty. They have to confront politicians, Catholic politicians, who are sinning gravely and publicly in this regard. And that’s their duty.
“And if they carry it out, not only can they not be reproached for that, but they should be praised for confronting this situation.”
Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion. General Principles tldm.org/news7/Ratzinger.htm
by Joseph Ratzinger
- The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. …] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. …] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74).
- Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.
Quotes from Archbishop Burke. (this article catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31984
"Among the US bishops directly to address the issue, Archbishop Burke was one of around a dozen who vigorously supported a directive of the Vatican that said pro-abortion Catholic politicians “must be refused” Holy Communion if they attempt to receive at Mass. Others have refused to abide by the Vatican instruction and the Church’s own Code of Canon Law, saying they would rather focus on “education” of such politicians.
Archbishop Burke called “nonsense” the accusation, regularly made by some bishops, that refusing Holy Communion “makes the Communion rail a [political] battle ground”. In fact, he said, the precise opposite is true. The politician who insists on being seen receiving Holy Communion, despite his opposition to the Church’s central teachings, is using that reception for political leverage."
“The Holy Eucharist, the most sacred reality of our life in the Church, has to be protected against sacrilege. At the same time, individuals have to be protected for the sake of their own salvation from committing one of the gravest sins, namely to receive Holy Communion unworthily.”
Archbishop Burke also dismissed the commonly proffered excuse that such politicians need more “education”. Speaking from his own direct experience, he said that Catholic politicians who are informed by their pastors or bishops that their positions in support of pro-abortion legislation makes it impossible for them to receive Holy Communion, “I’ve always found that they don’t come forward.”
“When you talk to these people, they know,” he said. “They know what they’re doing is very wrong. They have to answer to God for that, but why through our pastoral negligence add on to that, that they have to answer to God for who knows how many unworthy receptions of Holy Communion?”
Archbishop Burke said that the issue had been debated enough.** He rejected the idea that the matter should be left to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, saying the Conference has no authority in the matter. “This is a law of the universal Church and it should be applied.” **
“I think this argument too is being used by people who don’t want to confront the issue, this whole 'wait ‘til the Conference decides’…well the Conference has been discussing this since at least 2004. And nothing happens.”
When asked what the solution was, he responded, "Individual bishops and priests simply have to do their duty. They have to confront politicians, Catholic politicians, who are sinning gravely and publicly in this regard. And that’s their duty.
“And if they carry it out, not only can they not be reproached for that, but they should be praised for confronting this situation.”
Y
YADA
Guest
And that priest could not know whether that person had gone to confession and received reconcilliation before presenting themselves for communion - in no way shape or form … that priest did not know that the person also mighthave attended mass in addition to also attending a service with their spouse … and a public officials making public statements regarding their positions in favor of abortion and even using Church Fathers to defend their position [ala Pelosi] while declaring themselves to be faithful catholics [and who also rarely attend Mass every Sunday] are not only in a state of sin but also causing public scandal and eading others to sin [because they are veiwed as speaking authoritatively]
To deny that that our Bishops [collectively by their own dis-unity] have not invited the confusion that we have in the US regarding the abortion issue is acting the ostrich with head in sand … and I personally know Bishops that share this opinion [and we see that in press releases - where some Bishops will take a stand for life and others are wishy washy] …
FYI -In the case I noted above - I defended the priests actions [he was not this person’s parish priest and the situation has lots of nuances] … to those present and even the person involved - but after his comments in the press - this priest has a double standard … one for unknown persons he picks and chooses and another for the rich and powerful …that is a fact…
Which is exactly why we have the catholic politicians who can publically denounce the moral teachings of the church and still get th photo op Euchairst Kodak moment — and that is scandalous.
And if you do not think that having a Catholic Governor who is the Grand Chair of the NARAL Pro-Choice Oregon Gala Fundraiser also receiveing the Eucharist does not cause scandal .and confusion amoung catholics [especially the young catholics - teens and young adults] what could? And you would equate that with someone who joins their spouse in worshiping in another faith tradition occasionally …
What about all of the Easter and Christmas vistors at your parish … does your priest deny them the Eucharist? … does he remind them not to come to conmmunion unless they have attended Confession? [probably not as the parish coffers need their contributions to survive the year]
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Sherry_G
Guest
Unless you are omniscient yourself, it’s best to stop judging each and every decision made by others and look to your own behaviour and statements. Be a light for Christ in the world, not a shrill and grating source of irritation. Bishops are not the equivalent of police in the Catholic church; they are shepherds. Each Catholic has a responsibility to adhere to Church teachings and to blame any and all bad behaviour by politicians on someone else sounds similar to what is going on in our liberal society in general today.And that priest could not know whether that person had gone to confession and received reconcilliation before presenting themselves for communion - in no way shape or form … that priest did not know that the person also mighthave attended mass in addition to also attending a service with their spouse … and a public officials making public statements regarding their positions in favor of abortion and even using Church Fathers to defend their position [ala Pelosi] while declaring themselves to be faithful catholics [and who also rarely attend Mass every Sunday] are not only in a state of sin but also causing public scandal and eading others to sin [because they are veiwed as speaking authoritatively]
To deny that that our Bishops [collectively by their own dis-unity] have not invited the confusion that we have in the US regarding the abortion issue is acting the ostrich with head in sand … and I personally know Bishops that share this opinion [and we see that in press releases - where some Bishops will take a stand for life and others are wishy washy] …
FYI -In the case I noted above - I defended the priests actions [he was not this person’s parish priest and the situation has lots of nuances] … to those present and even the person involved - but after his comments in the press - this priest has a double standard … one for unknown persons he picks and chooses and another for the rich and powerful …that is a fact…
Which is exactly why we have the catholic politicians who can publically denounce the moral teachings of the church and still get th photo op Euchairst Kodak moment — and that is scandalous.
And if you do not think that having a Catholic Governor who is the Grand Chair of the NARAL Pro-Choice Oregon Gala Fundraiser also receiveing the Eucharist does not cause scandal .and confusion amoung catholics [especially the young catholics - teens and young adults] what could? And you would equate that with someone who joins their spouse in worshiping in another faith tradition occasionally …
If each Catholic practices their own faith in good conscience and lives it, supports our beleaguered priests and bishops and does the work of God in our daily life we can collectively make a huge difference in this world. Be consistent in support of politicians who uphold life from conception to natural death, sign up to do some volunteer work in the commmunity or thru your church, get involved instead of playing armchair quarterback which helps no one. Each one of us has full responsibility to teach Christ’s message in this world.
My priest regularly explains at the end of his homily that non-Catholics should not present themselves for reception of Jesus in the Eucharist, but invites them to attend some classes to learn more about our faith. He goes on to say that Catholics who are not in good standing with the Church, ie missing Mass, sins against the 10 Commandments but invites them to attend the scheduled Reconciliation before each and every daily Mass, or call for appt. This is just one priest. There are over 400,000 working in Christ’s vineyard today.
Y
YADA
Guest
And you do not know anything about me … I am not shrill nor overly judgemental … I am observant … I witnessed a priest do something - then state for TV cameras how it was improper to do exactly what he had done previously … the only difference was the notoriety of the person and the gravity of the offense … that is a double standard in treatment by an officer of the chruch …
Similarly the Bishops have not been unified in their response to pro-abortion catholics who hold the pulic stage professing their ‘faith’ while being pro-abortion and recieving communion …my observation is that this response has caused confusion, public scandal … this is what the Bishops own … they can point to the Catholic Health Association all they want [and should] but the Catholic Health Association’'s position is not unlike the Kerry’s and Pelosi’s of the world … they want to prostitute their faith for personal gain while holding public positions in opposition to the Church … and the ishops wonder why
… I do not …Now if I was shrill - I would be writing scathing letters - with-holding financial support and/or channging my Chruch affliation … I do neither …
And it was you who - with no real knowledge declared that the priest withheld the Eucharist due to a person’s grave sin … and neither you nor that priest could know with certainty when that person presented themselves at Communion the state of their eternal soul … so my fellow CAF poster - it is you who come off shrill and judgemental …
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