B
bilop
Guest
Yes. That’s the heart of what I’m saying.
The Pope knows, or should know, that his words will be twisted, and not make such extemporaneous comments that lend themselves to such twisting.
God Bless
- Status
The Pope knows, or should know, that his words will be twisted, and not make such extemporaneous comments that lend themselves to such twisting.
God Bless
L
Lapey
Guest
In no way am I saying adultery is good or not grave matter; but do you understand what mortal sin is and what it required for a person to be guilty and/or culpable of that sin?
If a person out of no fault of his own is not exposed to this truth he is not guilty of the sin. That is straight from the CCC.
We are required, to follow our conscience. With that big and important a responsibility comes the requirement to form that conscience, yes. But on the same note, if a person is never exposed to the fullness of truth, how can he be held to that truth? This is in fact Catholic truth and doctrine. Read and study the whole section on the conscience, there is as much requirement to follow our conscience as there is to properly form the conscience.
Liberal thinkers tend to concentrate on the “following” and for get about formation; conservative thinkers think of the requirement of “proper formation” more than following the conscience. We must remember balance.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm
A person, who does not know of a grave sin, honestly has no way of knowing, is not guilty of the sin; this is fact. In the same way if a person is not free to choose the sin and is forced to do it, there is no sin.
If I misunderstood your point, please forgive me!
B
bilop
Guest
Invincible ignorance is virtually impossible in the modern world, outside of some very closed societies.
Adultery, in particular, violates the natural law, which is imprinted on the soul of all men. There’s no ignorance defence for that, or for murder, or theft, among other things.
Secondly, everyone in the Western world has heard the Church’s teaching on adultery. The fact that they do not agree does not make them invincibly ignorant.
God Bless
J
JRKH
Guest
The problem here is discerning whether one’s conscience is “malformed” or not.
There are various levels that one might discern by.
For the Catholic we have Scripture and the Catechism etc to check ourselves against.
Non- Catholic Christians likewise have Scripture - some have catechisms etc…others don’t - but each tries to follow Christ through Scripture to the best of their ability.
Other faiths have their own scriptures and teachings…
Those without a faith have the least defined structure to determine if they are “mal-formed” or not.
The common consideration in that above, from the Catholic viewpoint, is the belief that God has imprinted “the law” on man’s heart, that we see this law in our conscience - though perhaps not clearly, and that we should act on our conscience.
This idea is enshrined in the Catechism.
Of course as you rightly point out it needs to be a “properly formed” conscience…But as I mention above, there are various parameters within which one’s conscience can be formed.
To me the Holy Father is not saying that anything goes…but rather is displaying a profound faith in the idea that, if one continually seeks to follow their conscience - that conscience will lead them near and nearer to God.
At least that is what I take away from it.
Peace
James
P
Paddy_Walker
Guest
your conscience cannot tell you to do something wrong. people are conflicted in their minds because they try to act against their conscience. For non-religious people this is a puzzle, their head and their peers and the larger society tells them its ok but their conscience is causing them to try to rationalize, or make excuses to themselves. The Popes comment, if directed at such people, would be an encouragement to listen to their conscience more.
R
robwar
Guest
I think it is easy for someone from the Southern Baptists who might not have read the whole interview as well as is not fluent in Italian and might be judging this from shaky English translation to judge the Pope. Then have the audacity to quote “concerns” of traditional Catholic which a Southern Baptist would not understand or even have anything in common with.
J
justice99
Guest
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. Whatever he says would be, in a way, directed towards Catholics. As the Pope said, He is a child of the Church. For one to understand what He says is for one to look from the perspective of a Catholic. If He says the Church should be more receptive to “sinners” it means Catholics (who are not “sinners” in the positive sense) shouldn’t alienate “sinners” or scorn them. The commandment and the Church’s guidance are already there to help Catholics form a good conscience. And it is the acceptance of the Church that makes one a Catholic.
.
In summary what makes one a Catholic is different from what Catholics should “tolerate” from those who aren’t necessarily Catholics.
.
In summary what makes one a Catholic is different from what Catholics should “tolerate” from those who aren’t necessarily Catholics.
B
Back2Church
Guest
It doesn’t matter how he talks, the secular media will misreport and manipulate his words.
If he takes a hard-line approach, he gets labeled as a medieval bigot. If he takes a loving, welcoming approach, gets labeled as a progressive relativist.
The point is, what people do with his words is their fault, not his. As Catholics, we should be well informed on what the pope says, which means reading the source, not the news article, so that when non-Catholics ask “Did the pope really say…?” Or “What did the pope mean when he said…?”, we can give them a good answer.
People who read an article about something the pope said which seems to go against Catholic teaching or tradition should automatically know the article is a misrepresentation. It doesn’t matter if you’re Catholic, protestant, atheist, etc. Everyone knows the pope is Catholic. So people who news articles that paint his words as being “not so Catholic” shouldn’t have any problems realizing that the news article is a load of biased, misconstrued garbage. If they don’t realize this, it’s because they don’t want to.
The pope doesn’t need to be more prudent. The readers do.
J
johnnyc176
Guest
Yes…preach the whole Gospel.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you (compassion). Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (conversion).” John 8:11
L
Lapey
Guest
Unfortunately reality does not agree with you. “Virtually impossible in the modern world” to have a ill formed conscience??? Really? Do we live in the same world?
How about the child brought up in a household where there are two mothers, “married” mind you, and they are atheists. Do you think it’s is possible for these children to live in invincible ignorance; how about if we through in an “open relationship” to boot? Is adultery a real word to that person? How would you approach these children or adults for that matter; or would you simply right them off as condemned to hell?
The more it goes, the more we will be dealing with invincible ignorance. We are in very screwed up times, Isaiah 5:20 anyone?
20Ah! Those who call evil good, and good evil, who change darkness to light, and light into darkness, who change bitter to sweet, and sweet into bitter!
Remember I am not arguing whether there is grave matter or not, it is.
B
bilop
Guest
Very easy to have an ill-formed conscience. Very hard to be invincibly ignorant.
Again, as long as they have heard what Christ teaches, they are not invincibly ignorant. You are stretching invincible ignorance way passed the breaking point.
God Bless
L
Lapey
Guest
I agree with you here but I would change one of your words. Instead of conversion I would say justice. We are talking Jesus’ actions, not the woman’s. He showed Love and mercy, yes; but also justice. If there is no conversion and move towards truth, then as last Sunday’s Gospel, “there is a great chasm that is there to separate…” the comforted and the tormented.
Mercy does not come with justice.
M
Memaw
Guest
That’s the name of the game today. I’ll stick with the Pope anyday. God Bless. Memaw
T
triumphguy
Guest
Umm… nope.
Unless the Pope is leading us to sin (and not sin according to our own undeveloped ideas of what that be) then we should not be judging the Pope’s prudence at all.
L
Lapey
Guest
I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree on the invincible ignorance argument. In today’s society it is easy, pop culture, home environment, government directives, etc. I would go as far as to say it is easier to remain in ignorance of Jesus Christ in the USA now then ever in its history. There are so many untruths being preached by many more than the number preaching His real Truth, Jesus.
Heck, our struggles with Catholic teens in confirmation my wife and I teach show how easy it is to be completely ignorant of truth. We have arguments with Catholic parents about almost all of the Catholic Moral teachings. How is a non-religious secularist kid going to know or hear truth?
M
Memaw
Guest
Don’t judge him by the past Pope’s. Event that isn’t always told truthfully. He is a breath of fresh air for us lazy and thoughtless Catholics and even every one else. Maybe he pricks our conscience.a bit and we don’t like it!! The Holy Spirit works in many ways, be still and listen. God Bless, Memaw
T
Tigg
Guest
I truly feel empathy for those beset with confusion in the recent papal interviews and those who are quick to interpret quotes whether they have, in fact, been accurately stated or not. There have been similar times in church history such as this.
Which is why it is an absolute and fundamental necessity for every Christian to understand what his faith and His Church teaches. Theology can develop, but a more complete understanding cannot and does not drastically change what has been definitively declared for 2,000 years. It appears, however, there is a new vulnerability to personal faith for those who have not previously assented to that which went before. Recently there seems to be a surge in posters quoting prior encyclicals and church documents. The facts are there if some effort and goodwill is expended. Time to get back to basics and drag out those catechisms and read and pray for strength and understanding. Ask the HS for the gift of sensus fidei and for discernment. And above all, do not be unduly influenced by internet posters who, at times, appear to be more confused than most!
Which is why it is an absolute and fundamental necessity for every Christian to understand what his faith and His Church teaches. Theology can develop, but a more complete understanding cannot and does not drastically change what has been definitively declared for 2,000 years. It appears, however, there is a new vulnerability to personal faith for those who have not previously assented to that which went before. Recently there seems to be a surge in posters quoting prior encyclicals and church documents. The facts are there if some effort and goodwill is expended. Time to get back to basics and drag out those catechisms and read and pray for strength and understanding. Ask the HS for the gift of sensus fidei and for discernment. And above all, do not be unduly influenced by internet posters who, at times, appear to be more confused than most!
J
JamesCollins
Guest
This is a time when we need to hold onto what the catechism teaches and not concern ourselves too much with what the pope supposedly says in the media. This pope isn’t changing anything even if he says things in a way which allows the media a field day.
C
coachkfan1
Guest
If you had read the article, you would have read that it was a Catholic theologan who brought up the concerns of Traditional Catholics, NOT the Baptist, so maybe you should take a look at it before you have the “audacity” to call out the Protestant minister.
R
Robert_Bay
Guest
That the So Baptists criticize Catholics is not news of the Catholic Church
- Status