Torn on This Issue

[Al_Masetti]

 

[I_question_God]

For years I’ve been vehemently against illegal immigration. I guess you could say I’m a traditional trade unionist who opposes illegal immigration because it undermines the wages of working class Americans. However I was so enraged by right-wing radio talk show host Michael Savage and his rant against the Roman Catholic Church because of the stance of some bishops on this issue that I’ve almost completely wound up in the other camp. My mother is Mexican-American and our family immigrated here legally in 1914. My grandfather fought in WWII when he was a teenager not even old enough to vote or drink. Many of my uncles did the same. Our family is very loyal to the United States. That’s why I can’t believe what I’m hearing from some people here in the states. I heard from one saying, “they should detain every brown skinned person to determine if they’re a citizen or not”. I feel that amongst some in this country there is a factor of bigotry against Mexicans whether they be American citizens or not. I’m still struggling with the issue I just wanted to put in my two cents.

I’m glad you are starting to see the racism and hatred.

 

[I_question_God]

I even asked one( ? one?), one time, who did that and was caught doing it, why in the world he didn’t have health insurance since it was available to him. He replied “because I didn’t know I would get hurt”. He wasn’t even embarrassed, and acted as if it was the dumbest question he ever heard."

well its like having life insurance, of actually flood protection in a non flood area, why bother? until a flash flood comes… not all of us can be perfect and forsee and pay for everything.

Even when a family makes “good” money, and has services available to them, we do not know their life circumstances, only God does.

 

[I_question_God]

Ituyu;1571512:

I worked on a project for a while. The government spent something like 20 years to build 14 miles. Impatient, a law was passed authorizing a different way to manage the project, taking it out of the “same-old, same-old government hands” to build this thing. And in the following two years. about 160 miles were built, completing the project. Fifty years later, it’s still working just fine. Upgraded as needed; new technology retrofitted; etc.

So, it’s very do-able.

hahaha ah I should direct my friends Chas, and speaks with wolves here. what a luagh now they can know what their anscestors should have did to Christopher Columbus.

We are all Gods children, we are all human. We all have the right to live on this earth.

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1571512:

I worked on a project for a while. The government spent something like 20 years to build 14 miles. Impatient, a law was passed authorizing a different way to manage the project, taking it out of the “same-old, same-old government hands” to build this thing. And in the following two years. about 160 miles were built, completing the project. Fifty years later, it’s still working just fine. Upgraded as needed; new technology retrofitted; etc.

So, it’s very do-able.

Then maybe you should be consulting with Homeland Security and our Border Patrol because they don’t think so.

" T.J. Bonner, the president of the National Border Patrol Council, the main union for Border Patrol agents. “San Diego is the most heavily fortified border in the entire country and yet it’s not stopping people from coming across.”

11 million people looking at the fence from our side of the border seem to confirm Mr Bonner’s observations. All the fencing did was divert traffic from San Diego temporarily but now border crossing at San Diego is once again on the rise.

 

[I_question_God]

Al Masetti;1571805:

Then maybe you should be consulting with Homeland Security and our Border Patrol because they don’t think so.

" T.J. Bonner, the president of the National Border Patrol Council, the main union for Border Patrol agents. “San Diego is the most heavily fortified border in the entire country and yet it’s not stopping people from coming across.”

11 million people looking at the fence from our side of the border seem to confirm Mr Bonner’s observations. All the fencing did was divert traffic from San Diego temporarily but now border crossing at San Diego is once again on the rise.

They didn’t listen. However we can’t change something that occured years ago. I will say this. There does need to be something in place.

Not because of racism, but becuase we need to assure more criminals don’t come in. NOT saying all Immigrants are criminals, but I’m sure anyone with an ounce of intelligence understands what I am trying to say.

I promote diversity, natonalities, it makes us great but we do need a way of ensureing all of us are treated equal. I’m not talking services and taxes. Hell the Government uses those to kill people in this dumb war.

 

[Ituyu]

You seem to like Wikipedia. Wikipedia states an alien is a person who is not a native or naturalized citizen of the land where they are found. US law reflects this definition.

Hmmm. We the people of the United States meet this definition quite nicely. We are the aliens and they are the indigenous, the First Americans.

Wikipedia also states the term illegal alien describes a foreign national who resides in another country unlawfully, either by entering that country at a place other than a designated port-of-entry or as result of the expiration of a non-immigrant visa. Again, US law reflects this definition.

Agains this describes us very nicely. Did Europeans get permission or did we just come?

You can talk about Siberian genes all you want but that is your personal view. That does not make it true or correct. I certainly reject your view and apparently so does Wikipedia.

No this is just your creative interpretation of what Wikipedia says. Look up “indigenous” and you’ll see …we ain’t it.

 

[I_question_God]

I have to agree, but you know “we” discovered America. Never mind the people who were here, its all a figment of your imagination…yeah

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[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1572078:

They didn’t listen. However we can’t change something that occured years ago. I will say this. There does need to be something in place.

Not because of racism, but becuase we need to assure more criminals don’t come in. NOT saying all Immigrants are criminals, but I’m sure anyone with an ounce of intelligence understands what I am trying to say.

I promote diversity, natonalities, it makes us great but we do need a way of ensureing all of us are treated equal. I’m not talking services and taxes. Hell the Government uses those to kill people in this dumb war.

I don’t disagree with what you say. What I’ve been saying is that Enforcement Only will not work. I believe that this current influx of “illegal” immigration is of our own making. We under estimated the numbers we needed to support our labor force and we closed the “legal” door. The existing policies could have worked quite nicely had we not seen fit to close those doors. IRCA of 1986 did what you suggest which is basically no diferent than what would have happened had they been allowed to come in “legally”. Our policies require a background check by the FBI and are also checked against Interpol. Those with serious crimanal records are denied entry. They require health checks and that they pay their fair share of taxes. Also they had to be self-sufficient and not receive Welfare. Their fees and the tax revenues they generate from back taxes paid for most if not all of our costs. It is more effective, humane and affordable.

 

[I_question_God]

I question God;1572084:

I don’t disagree with what you say. What I’ve been saying is that Enforcement Only will not work. I believe that this current influx of “illegal” immigration is of our own making. We under estimated the numbers we needed to support our labor force and we closed the “legal” door. The existing policies could have worked quite nicely had we not seen fit to close those doors. IRCA of 1986 did what you suggest which is basically no diferent than what would have happened had they been allowed to come in “legally”. Our policies require a background check by the FBI and are also checked against Interpol. Those with serious crimanal records are denied entry. They require health checks and that they pay their fair share of taxes. Also they had to be self-sufficient and not receive Welfare. Their fees and the tax revenues they generate from back taxes paid for most if not all of our costs. It is more effective, humane and affordable.

yes and most of thats still in effect my sister married an illegal immigrant a few years ago. One day he mentioned he had to cash his check…I asked how he did it and said he had a “fake” social to get work, pay taxes and not get in trouble needless to say I explained he will get in trouble. Luckily for him right before this whole debate started he filed for papers. They required he leave and hid wife and kids not rely on public assistance. Which was fine because they both work.

 

[Fremont]

 

[Fremont]

I prefer the Wikipedia wording of native citizen. Wikipedia says an alien is a person who is not a native (citizen) or naturalized citizen of the land where they are found.

Wikipedia says a native-born citizen of a country is a person who is legally recognized as that country’s citizen at the moment of birth and was also born within that country.

Today the vast majority of US residents are native-born citizens, citizen-at-birth by inheritance or naturalized citizens and thus, by definition, are not aliens. That includes Native Americans, indigenous peoples, as well. This has not always been the case but it is now.

Certainly most of the citizens of the US are not indigenous in the sense you seem to mean. So what? They are citizens and not aliens.

Just because we observe some kook with religious beliefs that include some sort of ancestor worship proclaiming: Siberian Genes, Siberian Genes – anyone who does not have the type of Siberian Genes that I approve of is an alien! does not change who is a citizen and who is an alien.

Sure the Europeans and other foreigners who came to the US were indeed aliens when they came, be that in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th or even the 21st century. But they broke no immigration laws. I am unaware of any laws governing immigration to what is now the US by any type of government prior to the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

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[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1571512:

It is irrelevant when the observations by Mr. Easterlin were written; they focus on events when immigration laws were quite different. Today it is illegal to enter the US without permission. That does not change the demand or lack of demand for labor but it does change the dynamics because legitimate, just laws are involved now that were not in effect 100 yeas ago.

Italy? You stated I said: “You say that you’re worried that Italy will not even be Christian some where in the future.” I never said any such thing. Your statement is false. This is not the first time you have made false statements about other’s words or intents and likely will not be the last. I just do not know if it is due to ignorance or maliciousness.

Again, more untrue accusations. You say: “you have not once complained of anyone else except for Spanish speaking foreigners.” That is false. I mentioned in the post in question and other times illegal immigration by Chinese and others. An illegal immigrant is an illegal immigrant, no mater where they come from and it is important for our country to do all it can to discourage illegal immigration, and hopefully eliminate it.

The public heath issue is legitimate and real and has been documented. People entering this country with out a reasonable health check place public heath in jeopardy.

The US immigration laws are not arbitrary and do not target any ethic or racial group, they apply to all. The laws are just and are not contrary to Church teaching. There has been no condemnation of any US immigration laws by the Church.

There have been several requests in this forum for evidence that the Church has condemned any US immigration laws. None has been forthcoming because no matter how much some claim the laws are unjust those claims just are not true and the Church does not back such claims.

You’ve never once addressed “illegal” immigration from any place else but our southern border. We have a much more porous boder with Canada that is three or four times larger which is far easier to cross than our southern border.

If you don’t know that our immigration policies have always been directed at particular waves of immigrants then you simply don’t know how we’ve dealt with the issue since the beginning.

Of course, I understand that our health issues have been a policy. However, a fence does nothing to identity or protect us from the problem. A procedure that requires them to get checked before admittance does just that. A fence would leave us more vulnerable because as the experts responsible for border control have said, fencing does not work.

Here’s another tidbit from the study:

Immigrants, even those from countries that are much
poorer and have lower average life expectancies than the United
States, are healthier than U.S. natives of the same age and sex.
New immigrants have better records with respect to infant
mortality and health than do U.S. natives and immigrants who have
been in the United States longer."

Controlling diseases is a good idea for anybody on our side of the border. The fence idea does nothing about the 11 million people already here. If they’re sick, we need to know and a fence wastes monies that could help us all be safer in this respect where ever we find a problem.

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1572088:

See what I mean about your creative interpretations? Where do you find NATIVE means Citizen? There were obviously Natives on this land that were not citizens and they still exisit. But, for this to work you have to conveniently ignore “indigenous” and apply only those things that deny the realities. These people may not be citizens but they are not “foreign” to this land, no more than we are but at least they didn’t take it from others.

Wikipedia says a native-born citizen of a country is a person who is legally recognized as that country’s citizen at the moment of birth and was also born within that country.

Again, convenient because it is talking about countries. This place was here before we put borders on it and created countries. An indigenous person may not be a citizen of this country but he is still one of the First Americans Non-citizenship does not make him foreign, it makes him a non-citizen.

Today the vast majority of US residents are native-born citizens, citizen-at-birth by inheritance or naturalized citizens and thus, by definition, are not aliens. That includes Native Americans, indigenous peoples, as well. This has not always been the case but it is now

All European descendents are descended from foreigners to this land and will never be the “indigenous”. Being born here does not make one “indigenous”. You can rant and rave or cry and pout all you want but this tangent you’ve taken us still will not make the fence work.

Certainly most of the citizens of the US are not indigenous in the sense you seem to mean. So what? They are citizens and not aliens.

The indigenous may not be citizens but they are not foreigners. We’ve admitted that much in some cases but we’ve been inconsistent. Trhe indigenous along our northern border can declare to be US citizens no matter which side of the border they were born on. Those on the southern border cannot.

Just because we observe some kook with religious beliefs that include some sort of ancestor worship proclaiming: Siberian Genes, Siberian Genes – anyone who does not have the type of Siberian Genes that I approve of is an alien! does not change who is a citizen and who is an alien

Nobody said it did. It addresses the issue of who were the First Americans and who were not.

Sure the Europeans and other foreigners who came to the US were indeed aliens when they came, be that in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th or even the 21st century. But they broke no immigration laws. I am unaware of any laws governing immigration to what is now the US by any type of government prior to the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Another convenient argument. Those who come “illegally” today did nothing different from those who came “legally” then. That’s another reason that our laws are arbitrary. To make them “foreigners” or “illegals” on their native land is wrong. We had essentially open borders for most of our history with Mexico and yet they didn’t all move here. They’ve always come for jobs and a better life just like their ancestors before them and our ancestors before us. It has always worked well for those on either side of the border and it is still true today.

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[rlg94086]

Another convenient argument. Those who come “illegally” today did nothing different from those who came “legally” then. That’s another reason that our laws are arbitrary. To make them “foreigners” or “illegals” on their native land is wrong. We had essentially open borders for most of our history with Mexico and yet they didn’t all move here. They’ve always come for jobs and a better life just like their ancestors before them and our ancestors before us. It has always worked well for those on either side of the border and it is still true today.

That was then, and this is now. Your arguments are silly. There are established borders in the world, and the governments of those lands make laws governing their people and immigration.

Everything else you have said is garbage. Mexico’s borders did change, when they were defeated by the United States. Citizens of the United States have come from all over the world. Some came when the borders were completely open, others came after immigration laws were changed. Whatever process or lack of process they had at the time determined the legality of their entry.

As someone whose ancestory includes the Europeans who settled here in the 1600s and the Native Americans who were already here, I take exception to your constant argument that anyone from Mexico who is coming here is “indigenous” to the United States. It’s ridiculous. Most are of mixed Spanish and Native American heritage, but their Native American ancestors were not on this piece of land now called the United States.

My Native American ancestors would have kicked their butts, if they tried to encroach on their land 400 years ago.

 

[I_question_God]

My Native American ancestors would have kicked their butts, if they tried to encroach on their land 300 years ago.

wow encroach bias anyone?

 

[rlg94086]

wow encroach bias anyone?

Wow…historical reality anyone?

My Native American ancestors didn’t kick my European ancestor’s butts because they were techologically inferior - they lost. That didn’t stop them from having wars with other Native Americans, where they were successful.

 

[I_question_God]

Wow…historical reality anyone?

My Native American ancestors didn’t kick my European ancestor’s butts because they were techologically inferior - they lost. That didn’t stop them from having wars with other Native Americans, where they were successful.

do you know who you are talking to? I live in historical reality, and I dont mean just ours either hahahah.

By the way we are all God’s creations, no one is inferior except he who thinks highly of himself.

 

[rlg94086]

do you know who you are talking to? I live in historical reality, and I dont mean just ours either hahahah.

By the way we are all God’s creations, no one is inferior except he who thinks highly of himself.

If I had to guess, I’m talking to a teenager in High School based on your posts.

You need to take the time to read critically. I said “technologically inferior,” which is a fact. If you have a bow and arrow and you are up against cannon and rifles, you won’t be able to win, especially against superior numbers.

 

[I_question_God]

If I had to guess, I’m talking to a teenager in High School based on your posts.

You need to take the time to read critically. I said “technologically inferior,” which is a fact. If you have a bow and arrow and you are up against cannon and rifles, you won’t be able to win, especially against superior numbers.

hahahaha and this folks is the reason people shouldn’t guess.

What happened I actually called you out and hurt your feelings, sorry bro. I look at everything, and I did take the time to read critically, you didnt because my profile clearly states about me.

It wasnt about who can win it was the snotty way in which you were replying by stating that the poster was dumb. hence the reason I stated the word BIAS in my original post to you.

I leave you to go back to thinking you know it all…bye