**I can’t imagine we are talking about that. It’s clear the US has done so, and there is no evidence they have not, excepting of course bushies protestations to the contrary which no one would bet a nickel on. **
Hating Bush is not a sufficient basis for believing the U.S. engages in torture. Nor have you, or anyone else in here drawn a bright line as to what torture is and what it isn’t.
My problem in this discussion is that some seem to define it so widely (implicitly, though none has attempted to define it directly) that it would prevent the authorities from applying any kind of unpleasantness at all to some murderous person, no matter what. I think that’s a cultural, not a moral stance.
It seems to me innocent lives are worth protecting. Genocide, if that’s what might be attempted one of these times (Well, I guess it is attempted regularly against Jews, but most of the Western moralists don’t seem to care.) And it seems to me, when innocent lives are in the balance, it’s way oversensitive to object to, say, sleep deprivation or even waterboarding, in order to save those lives.
Abu Ghraib was out of order. No question about it. The worst part of it was that it appears to have been useless, as well as just silly. But if putting panties on the heads of half the male population of Iraq would have saved one beheading or one murder of children, I would be for it. I value those innocent lives more than I value the stupid pride of those jihadists that were locked up there. Remember, those people were not in uniform and were caught in conflicts.
I am simply awestruck that some people in here seem to be saying they would spare the panties and let the innocents die. It takes my breath away. Do you hold human life so cheaply?
And world opinion? A U.N. that would put Cuba and Libya on the Human Rights commission, is worthy of no consideration or respect. This a lot like the Cold War, where all these righteous people could purchase a smug feeling of virtue by condemning U.S. weaponry while sitting secure under the umbrella of that very weaponry. I feel the same way about all this “world is against us” stuff. First of all, the world is not against us. There are lots of nations with presence in Iraq, for example, besides the U.S., and lots more supporters who are afraid to be out in the open about it. And there are lots of people in the world who are for us. And, of course, the whole world knows who the real torturers of the world are. I’m sure Castro, the Chinese, North Korean and Russian oligarchs (not to mention every Muslim nation on earth) got a good laugh over the childish antics at Abu Ghraib, and the discomfort of the U.S. over all the moral posturing of the commentators who sit comfortably protected by the U.S. armed forces. Those folks REALLY torture, but none of those who are so quick to condemn the U.S. go after the real torturers of the world. No, that could be dangerous. Safer to get into a high moral dudgeon about sleep deprivation and panties on the head.
I’m sorry, but to me, that’s all just gaining a sense of moral superiority on the cheap.
