Torture American Style

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Debunkerman:
Eric Olson was a young boy when his father was drugged with LSD and thrown from the window of the Statler Hilton Hotel in New York City.
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We had some institutional LSD experiments on people up here in Montreal too. Nasty business. But off topic. 😦
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Debunkerman:
The government and the press reported Frank Olson killed himself. I don’t think the Olson family would think your joke was funny.
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You could be right. They may not think it was funny. They may wonder to themselves what possible relation such a comment could bear to the subject of Olson’s death. Just as I am wondering what possible relation your long list of gripes against America have to do with the subject of torture. Which, I think, is the point made by Vern’s post, albeit with some elegantly rhetorical flourishes. :tiphat:
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Debunkerman:
Thomas Aquinas told us that we should not be ignorant of things we should know.
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So wise. I presume that St Thomas means for us to include the subject of torture in our avoidance of ignorance. And what better way to expand our knowledge of torture than by staying on topic? But then that would beg the question of the ‘big picture’ of Immoral America, would it not?

Oh gee, what to do, what to do? I am thinking that the ‘big picture’ of Immoral America is so gargantuan in scope that only a new thread would do it justice. Perhaps it needs its own vehicle. A crane would be ideal, but a Dodge Ram will do in a pinch. 😃
 
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Debunkerman:
The murder of our fellow citizen, Dr. Frank Olson is an example of government secrecy and abuse of power.
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And torture is another example of secrecy and abuse of power. But the equating of murder and torture is a false analogy.
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Debunkerman:
It demonstrates that we have been lied to in the past and criminal activity has been concealed from the public.
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Correct. And looking to history for cause and effect is legitimate, but inventing cause and effect where none exists is not legitimate.
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Debunkerman:
All of the examples I listed involve secrecy and lies. Do you want to live in a country based on secrecy and lies or openness and truth?
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Oh I think this could be an example of a false dilemma. I certainly believe that democracy affords the greatest opportunity for openness and truth from among other forms of government. Certainly when compared to a political culture such as Al Queda! However, there are obvious occasions when some degree of secrecy is required.

I have pointed out one such occasion which you have yet to address. Since you have not taken up discussion on that point, I shall take it that you concede that protecting valuable prisoners and their information from assassination is a reasonable use of secrecy. So it follows logically from your concession that simply listing examples of government secrecy is no longer relevant.
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Debunkerman:
Are you in favor of U.S. secret military prisons where people can be taken secretly and their fate is never known? That is what we have now and these secret prisons are run by a government that has a fifty year long history of poisoning and murdering our fellow citizens.
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Whoops! Too late. You have conceded the point on secrecy. Therefore simply listing examples of government secrecy is no longer relevant.
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Debunkerman:
Looking at the torture of prisoners in isolation of our past crimes ignores the awful truth.
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I don’t think so. I think submerging the torture of prisoners in the polemic of anti-Americanism takes unfair advantage of those prisoners, capitalizes on their misery to drive a disparate agenda, and is counterproductive to the cause of justice, freedom, and democracy.

Moreover ‘our past crimes’ is off-topic.
 
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Debunkerman:
What does not make sense that high government officials could be involved in criminal activity like murder?

Where to you think torture and secret military prison policies came from, Lynndie England?

This fish is rotten at the head. Why not tell the whole truth?
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This discussion has degenerated to the point where it no longer makes sense
 
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Debunkerman:
Why not tell the whole truth?
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Is ‘the whole truth’ according to Debunkerman the topic of this thread? If so, where does it say that in the original post? Here is the full text of the original post:
St. Augustine says, “Just wars are usually defined as those that avenge injuries, when a nation or a city should be punished for failing to right a wrong done by its citizens.”
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Could we be punished for failing to right a wrong done by our citizens?
Is torture a blight on America’s image?
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Your original post actually seems to infer that we should wage ‘just war’ against ourselves! Well, hey! Al Queda are the only other people in this war! Do you suggest that they punish us? If so, you do understand this suggestion to be sedition, do you not? How persuasive do you think sedition might be among a population concerned with ending torture?
**In any case, who do you propose wage your just war against the US? Americans or Al Queda? :confused: **

On the topic of war, by the way, war and torture have some characteristics in common, according to Elaine Scarey – but they are not equivalent.

On the topic of just war, Catholic teaching has a Just War Doctrine and a Principle of Double Effect. Since this is a Catholic board one would expect such doctrine and effect to be applied to your ‘whole truth’ and ‘big picture.’ But so far all that has emerged are lists of grievances against the democratically elected government of the United States. Oh and a few disjointed quotes which amount imho to wishful thinking. :o

I am beginning to wonder if we even agree on what constitutes ‘torture,’ particularly as you seem to have used this term very loosely as a pretext to hold up an anti-war, anti-American polemic. I’ve already given examples supporting both my claims about your polemic, so they are not offered gratuitously. 😃
 
vern humphrey:
Please stick to the topic – lest the rest of us consider that you have conceded by abandonment.
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We’ve reminded him often enough about sticking to the topic. He has conceded the topic by abandonment. Ani out.
 
When this thread occasionally manages to get on topic, it just seems to go in circles.
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