i know you asked this of GKC, but i will put in my two cents. i don’t like either. when i left the episcopal church, women were neither deacons or priests. when i went back i was a little taken aback, but i tried to adjust and i never could adjust. believe me i tried.
How did she become a Bishop and my cosin said they need a popeIt is sad indeed and full of unbiblical theology the equivalent of lukewarm oatmeal. The church that gave birth to so many of our nation’s leaders in many sectors is self destructing. It has lost its way and not maintained faith with the gospel. As a Christianity Today article noted several years ago they are the denominational equivalent of the Titanic.
The church is losing congregants at a remarkable rate, many it’s churches are in financial turmoil according to some reports, and it is spending a small fortune suing orthodox congregations. They will be left with elderly liberals of the Spong generation. My understanding is that they have a significant endowment so should be able to go on as an entity whether or not they continue to lose people.
Barbara Harris is certainly…um interesting. It is sad that a Bishop would communicate as she does. In fact, I wonder why so many of those Bishops & clergy are attempting to destroy the church and dismember the gospel.
The Episcopal Church could benefit from a Cardinal Ratzinger. In the end, even if the Episcopal Church continues to fade away there is a news flash for the Bishops, the only satisfaction they may have is that they rode the TEC to the bottom of the ocean …THE WORD OF GOD WILL NOT FADE AWAY.
Good post, VARC. You’re right about the “third world” comment. The Episcopal Church looks down on the third world a great deal as being primitive in their lack of birth control and backwards in their views that men and women have different roles and that homosexuality is a sin. They look at Africa especially as being uneducated and needing the liberal catechism. So, they don’t want to associate with them. Africa has done a lot to hurt the lefty Episcopalian cause sending missionary bishops and priests here over the years who have helped foment a real rebellion against their hippy tyranny.
I am part of the movement that left TEC originally over the dual issues of liturgical changes (the BCP) and the pending acceptance of WO, yes. The train left the station and ran off the rails; you can see the wreckage in Anaheim. I have no doubt you do not see the issue as a critical one, or you would not be where you are, and satisfied with it. To an Anglo-Catholic (among over flavors of Anglicanism) the point is central to sacramental validity. Which is central, both to Catholic worship, and to salvation.
One thing I never knew much about what the difference between the 1979 BOCP and the 1928 verision? (I hope I got that 1928 year right!)…
There are actually some improvements in the 79 book, over the 1928, placement of the Gloria, form for auricular confession, the Articles in an “historical” section. But generally, it defeats the concept of a book of common prayer, with a choice of Rites. And it has a few infelicities in wording. We believe rather than I believe, in the Creed, for example. I know of some orthodox Anglicans who use the 79, though. Think of it as Novus Ordo, and the 1928 as Tridentine Latin.
i grew up on the BCP 1928. to me it was a beautiful book of prayer. i still have the first one that was given to me as a gift from my parents. i have all of them. that was another shock to me when i left the TEC for 10 or 12 years and i came back and couldn’t figure out why the service was different. i thought it was because i was in a different state. i didn’t know that they had changed the BCP. GKC gave a good analogy. think of the 1928 prayerbook as TLM and the 1979 prayerbook as post vatican II or novus ordo.
you are welcome!!7 Sorrows–I am happy to hear your two cents.Thank you!
God Bless!
now i am in the Catholic church and there are those on the less traditional side who would also like to see women ordained, so then what do i do?Woman’s ordination in the Catholic Church ain’t happening. If it concerns you then you don’t have to do a thingyou are welcome!!
dittos to what Roman Catholic told you, Seven. It (W.O.) will NEVER happen. If you truly believe that the RCC is guided, protected, and nurtured by the Holy Spirit, then this absurd and profain violation of the priesthood will never happen. It is an extreme butchery of the very heart and soul of the priesthood and is impossible. You will invariably run into people in the Catholic church that believe all sorts of loony things…that soon women will be priests, that married priests are around the corner, that the Church will reverse its policies on everything from contraception to gay marriage. That is from a bunch of burn-outs from the 60’s who are frustrated that the Gloria Steinam and homosexual Stonewall/San Francisco mentality never penetrated the Vatican. They go to Mass on Sunday more out of some attachment to their childhood and feeling of tradition or family duty but they don’t really “get it” when it comes to the notion that the Holy Spirit protects the “gates of hell” from prevailing. They look at the Church as just another denomination with eventual collapses into a secular malaise…Don’t listen to them. I actually worked with a liberal teacher a few years ago. She had been raised in Catholic school and had an axe to grind against the Church. She came from the East Coast and had nothing nice to say about the Church out here. She goes to Mass every Sunday and yet you read her nasty letters to the editor talking about that intolerant, nasty ole’ Catholic Church that excludes gays and lesbians and encourages everyone to multiply irresponsibly. She told me after John Paul II’s death and Benedict’s election, “did you see that German Nazi loser old man we just got for Pope?” I gave her a piece of my mind and she didn’t talk to me for about a year LOL…She disagreed with the Church on abortion, contraception, gay lifestyle, divorce, euthanasia, you name it. She’s a hardcore democrat and thinks everything is a conspiracy. And it DRIVES HER NUTS that Catholicism won’t budge and conform to her will. Sometimes I have wanted Catholicism to bend to my will, and when I think of her, I realize how wrong I am. I run into her once in a while and she seems miserable. She’s a divorcee and I think she wants to blame the Church for that from the things she has told me. And yet she keeps going to Mass?..There are others like her, but the Holy Spirit has other plans and it drives these folks nutsoid.you are welcome!!
i pray you are right!Woman’s ordination in the Catholic Church ain’t happening. If it concerns you then you don’t have to do a thing
God bless
that is one of the reasons i have always been drawn to the Catholic church. it doesn’t bend to the will of the people. i can’t understand why the woman you described above remains Catholic if she is so unhappy that the Church is not liberal enough for her.dittos to what Roman Catholic told you, Seven. It (W.O.) will NEVER happen. If you truly believe that the RCC is guided, protected, and nurtured by the Holy Spirit, then this absurd and profain violation of the priesthood will never happen. It is an extreme butchery of the very heart and soul of the priesthood and is impossible. You will invariably run into people in the Catholic church that believe all sorts of loony things…that soon women will be priests, that married priests are around the corner, that the Church will reverse its policies on everything from contraception to gay marriage. That is from a bunch of burn-outs from the 60’s who are frustrated that the Gloria Steinam and homosexual Stonewall/San Francisco mentality never penetrated the Vatican. They go to Mass on Sunday more out of some attachment to their childhood and feeling of tradition or family duty but they don’t really “get it” when it comes to the notion that the Holy Spirit protects the “gates of hell” from prevailing. They look at the Church as just another denomination with eventual collapses into a secular malaise…Don’t listen to them. I actually worked with a liberal teacher a few years ago. She had been raised in Catholic school and had an axe to grind against the Church. She came from the East Coast and had nothing nice to say about the Church out here. She goes to Mass every Sunday and yet you read her nasty letters to the editor talking about that intolerant, nasty ole’ Catholic Church that excludes gays and lesbians and encourages everyone to multiply irresponsibly. She told me after John Paul II’s death and Benedict’s election, “did you see that German Nazi loser old man we just got for Pope?” I gave her a piece of my mind and she didn’t talk to me for about a year LOL…She disagreed with the Church on abortion, contraception, gay lifestyle, divorce, euthanasia, you name it. She’s a hardcore democrat and thinks everything is a conspiracy. And it DRIVES HER NUTS that Catholicism won’t budge and conform to her will. Sometimes I have wanted Catholicism to bend to my will, and when I think of her, I realize how wrong I am. I run into her once in a while and she seems miserable. She’s a divorcee and I think she wants to blame the Church for that from the things she has told me. And yet she keeps going to Mass?..There are others like her, but the Holy Spirit has other plans and it drives these folks nutsoid.
Don’t let these people worry you. Just pray for them, argue like crazy with 'em, and stand your ground. The devil won’t prevail, we’ve been promised that!
These remarks are offered to the readers, since Gurneyhalleck claims to keep me on ignore.Good post, VARC. You’re right about the “third world” comment. The Episcopal Church looks down on the third world a great deal as being primitive in their lack of birth control and backwards in their views that men and women have different roles and that homosexuality is a sin. They look at Africa especially as being uneducated and needing the liberal catechism. So, they don’t want to associate with them. Africa has done a lot to hurt the lefty Episcopalian cause sending missionary bishops and priests here over the years who have helped foment a real rebellion against their hippy tyranny.
And if you look at the “old catholic” churches, they are real liberal and innovators who have departed from orthodoxy; they are big on women’s ordination. Also, I would point out that when you say Lutheran churches in America, remember that the Missouri Synod Lutherans (and I think the Wisconsin, right?) are VERY conservative. They don’t ordain women and are very opposed to the gay agenda and are even stubborn on divorce in some areas. They are pro-life and have closed communion. So not all Lutherans have done like the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) and have left orthodoxy and traditional Lutheranism.
The churches you mention from Old Catholic to liberal Lutherans to liberal Anglicans all joining together would be a bizarre union indeed. Talk about uninspiring and a refuge for people that have absolutely no commitment to history or tradition or the Scriptures! That would be a gigantic Obama-style Oprahfest. I can only imagine with the general convention would look like! The primate would probably be Stevie Nicks!
But I doubt that this unholy union would produce fruit at all. A good tree bears good fruit. The “fruit” that would come about would be abortion, rampant population control views, euthanasia, transgender/gay/bisexual clergy, embracing divorce, in vitro fertilization acceptance, a belief in goddesses and other pagan viruses, and a rejection of the Gospel. Such a ‘church’ is doomed to failure. Birds of a feather flock together. Count me out of that flock! Koo koo birds! Why do I picture Boy George, Ian McKellan, and Sinead O’Connor as possible clergy there?