TOTAL Blasphemy in the Episcopal Church

[GKC]

you would think after awhile he would have given up on this episcopalian corporate group and sent them on their merry way.

Rowan has made a typically waffling and wobbly statement recently, which contains the potential possibility of the Anglican Communion becoming two track. One being those provinces in actual communion with each other, one being provinces who are sort of somewhat, in some way associated, but not really members in good standing.

If anything happens, official Anglicanism being what it is, it will take several lifetimes.

GKC

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

you would think after awhile he would have given up on this episcopalian corporate group and sent them on their merry way.

When I worshipped among the Anglicans, and the pot was beginning to boil (as it were), I made a similar observation. A lifelong Anglican explained to me why he thought it would never happen. He said the dynamics of the Anglican Communion were parallel to those at a Lambeth Conference, where the English drafted the resolutions, the Africans prayed, and the Americans PAID.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Rowan has made a typically waffling and wobbly statement recently, which contains the potential possibility of the Anglican Communion becoming two track. One being those provinces in actual communion with each other, one being provinces who are sort of somewhat, in some way associated, but not really members in good standing.

If anything happens, official Anglicanism being what it is, it will take several lifetimes.

GKC

I wish they’d just call a spade a spade (and I’ve said this before, but what the heck) and just disolve the Anglican Communion. It’s so eclectic and in disarray, so lacking coherence and message, so unified and chaotic, and ultimately there is so much theological dissention in it that it’s hardly even a body at all? Imagine a worldwide body with such extreme positions as TEC and ACNA and the African provinces and Sydney, Australia, it’s all like a wild fruit salad. I just don’t understand why Anglicans feel the need to be hooked up to Canterbury at all? Rowan Williams is a limp rag egg-head academe with absolutely no leadership ability. Carey and the others before him weren’t exactly cut from a great mold either. It’s such a silly position. I didn’t understand why Schofield aligned himself with Archbishop Greg Venables in Argentina either? Why not just break off and be content to be one’s own diocese? Don’t get me wrong, I love Venables the Southern Cone, but there’s no real need to align with them really to be legit. I guess it’s the strength in numbers thing but what was weird is how Schofield and company immediately were trying to get recognized by the ABC? Who cares?? He posted a letter on the diocesen website alluding to “the ABC now recognizes us!!” …sigh…

 

[7_Sorrows]

When I worshipped among the Anglicans, and the pot was beginning to boil (as it were), I made a similar observation. A lifelong Anglican explained to me why he thought it would never happen. He said the dynamics of the Anglican Communion were parallel to those at a Lambeth Conference, where the English drafted the resolutions, the Africans prayed, and the Americans PAID.

Blessings,

Gerry

that is an interesting take. i also agree with GKC that the archbishop moves too slowly, but Rome does too. maybe that is the nature of things. meanwhile, the rest of us are floundering around wondering what we are supposed to believe anymore. the lifelong anglican who told you the above, sounds like he has a lot of insight and has been around long enough to know the whole story.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I wish they’d just call a spade a spade (and I’ve said this before, but what the heck) and just disolve the Anglican Communion. It’s so eclectic and in disarray, so lacking coherence and message, so unified and chaotic, and ultimately there is so much theological dissention in it that it’s hardly even a body at all? Imagine a worldwide body with such extreme positions as TEC and ACNA and the African provinces and Sydney, Australia, it’s all like a wild fruit salad. I just don’t understand why Anglicans feel the need to be hooked up to Canterbury at all? Rowan Williams is a limp rag egg-head academe with absolutely no leadership ability. Carey and the others before him weren’t exactly cut from a great mold either. It’s such a silly position. I didn’t understand why Schofield aligned himself with Archbishop Greg Venables in Argentina either? Why not just break off and be content to be one’s own diocese? Don’t get me wrong, I love Venables the Southern Cone, but there’s no real need to align with them really to be legit. I guess it’s the strength in numbers thing but what was weird is how Schofield and company immediately were trying to get recognized by the ABC? Who cares?? He posted a letter on the diocesen website alluding to “the ABC now recognizes us!!” …sigh…

i would like to see the orthodox anglican communion remain intact because there is always the chance that someday they would reunite with Rome. however, the rest of the body that is in disarray, i don’t have a clue as to what the future will be. i think the anglican communion is the largest communion after the Catholic, or am i wrong about that? i also don’t think the anglican communion has had many strong archbishops in the last 20 years, but that is a reason i finally left the episcopal/anglican communion because i was so tired of the controversy and at the next convention this might happen and the next conference such and such might happen. i needed stability and i wasn’t getting it.
it just seemed like it could go on for years and years and years.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

i would like to see the orthodox anglican communion remain intact because there is always the chance that someday they would reunite with Rome. however, the rest of the body that is in disarray, i don’t have a clue as to what the future will be. i think the anglican communion is the largest communion after the Catholic, or am i wrong about that? i also don’t think the anglican communion has had many strong archbishops in the last 20 years, but that is a reason i finally left the episcopal/anglican communion because i was so tired of the controversy and at the next convention this might happen and the next conference such and such might happen. i needed stability and i wasn’t getting it. it just seemed like it could go on for years and years and years.

If there were more coherence, the “institutional logistics” of coming together would certainly be less complicated. But even when there was an absence of open fighting, there wasn’t real homogeneity. I’ve known Anglicans who, for instance, were very hard on their fellow Anglicans who allowed as there might be 7 sacraments, or who put candles on the altar. Even those in North America who have left the national churches to form a (they want) new province have striking differences. The REC is part of that, and I can’t see that hard core Protestant group ever making nice with Anglo-Catholics in the long term. Women’s ordination is a big differing point, too. Some have it, and those who don’t don’t recognize the ministry of the others’ women priests. So women’s ordination not only bespeaks a difference in the understanding of priesthood between Anglicans and Catholics, but also between groups of Anglicans.

The instability of which you speak is indeed a taxing and enervating thing. But I am hard put to see how it could have been avoided. The Anglican structures may not promote it, but they are open to it. And when it eventuates, they are, we are seeing, unable to deal with it, and come apart.

I still remember the Anglicans I know (and don’t know) who are trying, some valiantly, to cling to the Christian truths they possess, in my prayers. They are neither supported, nor much loved, by their hierarchies in TEC or ACofC for their efforts.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[GKC]

If there were more coherence, the “institutional logistics” of coming together would certainly be less complicated. But even when there was an absence of open fighting, there wasn’t real homogeneity. I’ve known Anglicans who, for instance, were very hard on their fellow Anglicans who allowed as there might be 7 sacraments, or who put candles on the altar. Even those in North America who have left the national churches to form a (they want) new province have striking differences. The REC is part of that, and I can’t see that hard core Protestant group ever making nice with Anglo-Catholics in the long term. Women’s ordination is a big differing point, too. Some have it, and those who don’t don’t recognize the ministry of the others’ women priests. So women’s ordination not only bespeaks a difference in the understanding of priesthood between Anglicans and Catholics, but also between groups of Anglicans.

The instability of which you speak is indeed a taxing and enervating thing. But I am hard put to see how it could have been avoided. The Anglican structures may not promote it, but they are open to it. And when it eventuates, they are, we are seeing, unable to deal with it, and come apart.

I still remember the Anglicans I know (and don’t know) who are trying, some valiantly, to cling to the Christian truths they possess, in my prayers. They are neither supported, nor much loved, by their hierarchies in TEC or ACofC for their efforts.

Blessings,

Gerry

True, on the whole.

But all Anglicans will permit 2 candles on the altar. It’s 6 that can cause a row.

OTOH, the REC won’t usually permit the altar.

Anglicans. The Heinz 57 of Churches

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I didn’t mean to demean anglicans who genuinely believe the Roman Catholic faith and convert. What just blows my mind is the mentality that if my church is erring then I must go to Rome because they are infallible. Such thinking is a fallacious knee-jerk reaction. A third possiblity exists: they are both wrong. Each church’s doctrine has to judged on its own merits.

The appeal to authority will appeal to those who think intellectual certainty - or the appearance of it at least - is essential to Christianity: to people with a Newmanish craving for dogma - but it is less likely to attract people who think other things in Christianity are equally, or more, important. It may attract some types of Anglican - but not others.​

What I don’t understand is why it seems that people convert - one is tempted to say, “jump ship” - only when some massive kerfuffle breaks out. If Anglicanism is so untenable, why don’t aspiring Tiber-swimmers notice this before ? And why don’t they stay, to use what weight they have to counter whatever is causing the kerfuffle ? It does seem a bit less than admirable to go to Rome, when they could be needed where they are already Only they know

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

…
Anglicans. The Heinz 57 of Churches

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

I think earlier you made reference to a curate’s egg? Just so.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The appeal to authority will appeal to those who think intellectual certainty - or the appearance of it at least - is essential to Christianity: to people with a Newmanish craving for dogma - but it is less likely to attract people who think other things in Christianity are equally, or more, important. It may attract some types of Anglican - but not others.​

What I don’t understand is why it seems that people convert - one is tempted to say, “jump ship” - only when some massive kerfuffle breaks out. If Anglicanism is so untenable, why don’t aspiring Tiber-swimmers notice this before ? And why don’t they stay, to use what weight they have to counter whatever is causing the kerfuffle ? It does seem a bit less than admirable to go to Rome, when they could be needed where they are already Only they know

You don’t suppose they have come to realize that the authority is God-given and necessary? No, of course not. But that’s OK. I know many who have.

And a kerfuffle can make people look and question, particularly when the apparatus can’t cope with it, and the outfit shatters into pieces. Perhaps there’s a realization that the apparatus simply is not capable of coping with it, and therefore, there’s no point in hanging around.

Anyway, “going to Rome” isn’t some kind of lifestyle choice. It’s entering into full communion with the Church wherein subsists the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. We understand fully why they would seek communion. We welcome them, and rejoice in their joy.

And we pray for those who are contending valiantly to hold onto the Christian truth they possess.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[GKC]

I think earlier you made reference to a curate’s egg? Just so.

Blessings,

Gerry

And I just saw that I’ve made the Heinz comparison in 2 threads.

GKC

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

And I just saw that I’ve made the Heinz comparison in 2 threads.

GKC

Hey, stick with what’s apt. You’re on the inside, so you’re poised to pick 'em, and you seem to have a knack for it.

Besides, change for the sake of change can get one into trouble, as has been demonstrated all too often.

GH

 

[GKC]

Hey, stick with what’s apt. You’re on the inside, so you’re poised to pick 'em, and you seem to have a knack for it.

Besides, change for the sake of change can get one into trouble, as has been demonstrated all too often.

GH

Not on the inside of the Anglican Communion. I’m of the Continuum.

GKC

 

[pipper]

I don’t see how anyone can expect any kind of uniformity within the Episcopal church or Anglicanism as a whole, they have no Magesterium, no Infallible authority. The only thing they have to go on is The Book of Common Prayer which has been re-written and revised for each county within the Anglican communion, they are not even bound to the 39 articles which even they vary slightly from nation to nation.

I think it’s all the blame of the Elizabethan Settlement, which did not care so much what one beleived as long as they stayed in the CofE, I think there is the beggining of the problem trying to form Puritans to Anglo-Catholics into one body with their vast differences.

The problem has only progressed through the centuries with no real authority to speak of, one can (and does) beleive nearly anything (or nothing) and still be an Anglican in good standing, just as long as they have lot’s of money, and belong to the right country club, and have graduated from Ivy League schools.

 

[GKC]

I don’t see how anyone can expect any kind of uniformity within the Episcopal church or Anglicanism as a whole, they have no Magesterium, no Infallible authority. The only thing they have to go on is The Book of Common Prayer which has been re-written and revised for each county within the Anglican communion, they are not even bound to the 39 articles which even they vary slightly from nation to nation.

I think it’s all the blame of the Elizabethan Settlement, which did not care so much what one beleived as long as they stayed in the CofE, I think there is the beggining of the problem trying to form Puritans to Anglo-Catholics into one body with their vast differences.

The problem has only progressed through the centuries with no real authority to speak of, one can (and does) beleive nearly anything (or nothing) and still be an Anglican in good standing, just as long as they have lot’s of money, and belong to the right country club, and have graduated from Ivy League schools.

I can see that I’m not eligible to be an Anglican in good standing.

GKC

 

[pipper]

I can see that I’m not eligible to be an Anglican in good standing.

GKC

Nor I, I belive in orthodox Christian thought, the bodily ressurection of Our Lord, the Virgin Birth of Jesus, the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady, the whole nine yards.

Besides I have never belonged to any Country Club and I graduated from a state university.

When I was Episcopalian the Rector highly resented coming to hospital to see me. No one ever called to see if I was deaad or alive. And never once in a twenty year period did any cleric call on me at home.

But they sure expected you to pay your pledge on time!

 

[7_Sorrows]

You don’t suppose they have come to realize that the authority is God-given and necessary? No, of course not. But that’s OK. I know many who have.

And a kerfuffle can make people look and question, particularly when the apparatus can’t cope with it, and the outfit shatters into pieces. Perhaps there’s a realization that the apparatus simply is not capable of coping with it, and therefore, there’s no point in hanging around.

Anyway, “going to Rome” isn’t some kind of lifestyle choice. It’s entering into full communion with the Church wherein subsists the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. We understand fully why they would seek communion. We welcome them, and rejoice in their joy.

And we pray for those who are contending valiantly to hold onto the Christian truth they possess.

Blessings,

Gerry

believe me, it was not an easy decision to make. even though i didn’t belong to any church for many, many years, i considered myself an episcopalian. it was very painful to see what was happening in the episcopal church and to realize how “lost” the church was.
i did think that the Catholic church was truly the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church
and i had to humble myself to submit to the authority of the Pope, etc.
the episcopalians and anglicans prided themselves in their independence from Rome, so
i had to swallow a lot of pride to become Catholic.
there are many people who are good Christians who do want to remain in the episcopal and anglican churches to do some good. some of them i understand could never be Catholic for several reasons and maybe they have more patience than i or a stronger faith that everything will work out. i felt like God was leading me to the Catholic church and i could not remain in the episcopal church any longer.

 

[Contarini]

The appeal to authority will appeal to those who think intellectual certainty - or the appearance of it at least - is essential to Christianity: to people with a Newmanish craving for dogma - but it is less likely to attract people who think other things in Christianity are equally, or more, important. It may attract some types of Anglican - but not others.​

What I don’t understand is why it seems that people convert - one is tempted to say, “jump ship” - only when some massive kerfuffle breaks out. If Anglicanism is so untenable, why don’t aspiring Tiber-swimmers notice this before ? And why don’t they stay, to use what weight they have to counter whatever is causing the kerfuffle ? It does seem a bit less than admirable to go to Rome, when they could be needed where they are already Only they know

Gottle,

Are you familiar with the work of Ephraim Radner? I think you would like it. I’m reading his Hope Among the Fragments. He has a great chapter called “The Virtue of Staying Put.”

Edwin

 

[Holly3278]

Are these people nuts? It’s one thing to have sinners in a Church. It’s 10x worse to teach blasphemy to the believers.
**
Episcopal Presiding Bishop: Individual Salvation is ‘heresy,idolatry’**

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=34091&wf=rsscol

Episcopal Bishop Barbara Harris Denies Sacrament of Marriage

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=34090&wf=rsscol
**
Anglicans on Brink of Schism **

ncregister.com/daily/anglicans_on_brink_of_schism/​

If I was Episcopalian or Anglican, I would be running for the door, right into the Catholic Church. What nonsense.

Yeah and they are definitely teaching heresy in the Episcopal Church. Of course, they’ve been doing that for quite a while. Think of Bishop Spong as an example and all the false teachings that he has in his various books and such. For example, he denies the resurrection of Christ in one of his books.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t see how anyone can expect any kind of uniformity within the Episcopal church or Anglicanism as a whole, they have no Magesterium, no Infallible authority. The only thing they have to go on is The Book of Common Prayer which has been re-written and revised for each county within the Anglican communion, they are not even bound to the 39 articles which even they vary slightly from nation to nation.

I think it’s all the blame of the Elizabethan Settlement, which did not care so much what one beleived as long as they stayed in the CofE, I think there is the beggining of the problem trying to form Puritans to Anglo-Catholics into one body with their vast differences.

The problem has only progressed through the centuries with no real authority to speak of, one can (and does) beleive nearly anything (or nothing) and still be an Anglican in good standing, just as long as they have lot’s of money, and belong to the right country club, and have graduated from Ivy League schools.

Yeah, imagine a Church with no central authority lasting thousands of years without a pope…[Orthodox Churches spread far and wide]