Trad forum

[Jenny_Z]

It seems like the mods there let folks there get away with alot more negativity than any of the other boards. It’s really a detriment, since just giving the front page of that forum a look, it seems like a majority of the threads there are full of mean-spirited arguments, whereas if those were in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, they’d be shut down within a day. Any way we could clean it up?

 

[Jenny_Z]

No response?

 

[anon50111284]

Please use the “Problem Post” icon to report problematic posts/posters.

 

[JReducation]

It seems like the mods there let folks there get away with alot more negativity than any of the other boards. It’s really a detriment, since just giving the front page of that forum a look, it seems like a majority of the threads there are full of mean-spirited arguments, whereas if those were in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, they’d be shut down within a day. Any way we could clean it up?

There is a great deal of abusive behaviour in that forum. Not only that, people have called Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II heretics. One poster said that everything that had come our of John Paul’s mouth was garbage. Another poster said that he hoped John Paul would never be canonized.

Currently there is a thread running where someone brought to the forum an issue of a teacher in his child’s school who is an unwed mother, but the poster’s home town is in his profile. Such specific moral issues should not be aired in a public forum. It’s distasteful. Even when given good advice on what to do, the poster continued to pursue the issue.

On another thread a poster mentioned bishops by name. He was not praising their pastoral efforts. He was bashing them for being pro gay, pro modernism, pro many other things that the Church finds morally wrong. You don’t post bishops names on a Catholic thread and ruin their reputation. Many of us have never met these men. We have no need to know if they are pro gay or pro birth control, etc.

I strongly believe that no one has the right to go on a Catholic forum and call a pope a heretic, modernist or question his canonizations and beatifications. Just because something is said politely does not mean that it can be said at all. Some things you can think, but you should never say in a forum that is meant to bring people to Christ and the Church.

In matters that may do harm to onlookers from other faiths and matters that hurt the image of the Church, there is some room for censorship and for correction.

I agree with the poster and join the request to clean up the Traditionalist forum.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Joysong]

I heartily agree with this evaluation, JR. A certain website favored by traditionalists has been notorious for its calumny of everything Catholic, and sadly, the poison is believed and disseminated by our members as though it were true. In addition to slandering certain popes and bishops in the TC forum, I have also seen posters publicly demean the holiness of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and I realized immediately where the source originated.

I have wondered whether our moderators are only required to examine posts for lack of charity, rather than lack of truth.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

I heartily agree with this evaluation, JR. A certain website favored by traditionalists has been notorious for its calumny of everything Catholic, and sadly, the poison is believed and disseminated by our members as though it were true. In addition to slandering certain popes and bishops in the TC forum, I have also seen posters publicly demean the holiness of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and I realized immediately where the source originated.

I have wondered whether our moderators are only required to examine posts for lack of charity, rather than lack of truth.

I would report those posts, and state the reason you’re reporting them in the space given for that purpose.

 

[Jenny_Z]

I guess I could report every post, but it seems kinda silly that some of the other forums are watched like a hawk, while that one just sorta runs wild.

I will do that though, thanks.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

It seems like the mods there let folks there get away with alot more negativity than any of the other boards.

I am the only mod for the Traditional Catholicism forum, although other mods will occasionally step in if I am on vacation or if there is an emergency.

Unfortunately, allowing a reasonable degree of negativity – so long as members remain civil and follow CAF rules – is part and parcel of having the Traditional Catholicism forum. Please see this link for more information:

CAF Statement of Purpose
Jenny Z:

It’s really a detriment, since just giving the front page of that forum a look, it seems like a majority of the threads there are full of mean-spirited arguments, whereas if those were in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum, they’d be shut down within a day. Any way we could clean it up?

Different mods have different styles and different philosophies. Also, one reason the Traditional Catholicism forum was created was to keep such concerns from derailing other conversations in forums like Liturgy & Sacraments. Members interested in traditional Catholic discussions have a place to air their views, while members who just want to discuss the standard liturgical and sacramental practices of the Roman rite in Liturgy & Sacraments need not be sidetracked.

I am open though to suggestions by participants in the TC forum as to what the focus of the forum should be. I ask only that such suggestions be constructive and not variations on “Shut it down now!” Thanks.

 

[MrS]

I am the only mod for the Traditional Catholicism forum, although other mods will occasionally step in if I am on vacation or if there is an emergency.

I am open though to suggestions by participants in the TC forum as to what the focus of the forum should be. I ask only that such suggestions be constructive and not variations on “Shut it down now!” Thanks.

I think some of the problem is simply people being people. Some like to post very long, long posts…almost like they are preaching their own brand of understanding.

Others like to cut and paste to avoid typos and to avoid any personal (name removed by moderator)ut or translations.

Others just like to complain about cut and paste.

And others just like to complain.

I think the alert icon is fine… perhaps it could be used a little more often…but I think the mods here become quite used to the traits and agendas of many regular posters.

And thus they know that most posters also know who it is who really doesn’t “get it” when it comes to Traditionalism… kind of like most non-Catholics "don’t get it’ when it comes to Catholicism

…now watch the fur fly

 

[LRThunder]

While some of the above problems are true, I have found that from time to time that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass has been attacked without cause.

The problem is that the negativity is a two way street.

As has been suggested, if there are specific posts that violate the rules of the forum, report the post to the moderator.

Unfortunately, disagreement, while it can be strong, is not enough to merely “clean up” a forum. That’s one of the strengths and weaknesses of message boards and forums: disagreements will take place. However, specific posts that break forum rules should be dealt with, no matter the viewpoint of the poster.

 

[peregrinus_WA]

While some of the above problems are true, I have found that from time to time that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass has been attacked without cause.

The problem is that the negativity is a two way street.

As has been suggested, if there are specific posts that violate the rules of the forum, report the post to the moderator.

Unfortunately, disagreement, while it can be strong, is not enough to merely “clean up” a forum. That’s one of the strengths and weaknesses of message boards and forums: disagreements will take place. However, specific posts that break forum rules should be dealt with, no matter the viewpoint of the poster.

I have said this before. I have no problems with the EF Form (although I prefer the Low to High), it is the people associated with it I have issues with. And it is not only here, but at my Parish.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Moving this thread to the TC forum so that the regulars here can offer their thoughts.

Please keep it civil and constructive. Thanks!

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I am certainly not schismatic. Most of the traditionalists here aren’t. We love TLM and I think it’s perfectly fine for us (and those who don’t love it quite so much ) to discuss the positives and negatives of it.

In a forum entitled “Traditional Catholicism” preventing posts about Vatican II or the associated Popes is absurd! Is the next step to ban Protestants from putting their views in the Apologetics forum? As has been discussed many times, a dislike of the Novus Ordo is NOT heresy, but even if it WAS (which it’s not), would you prevent people from posting their dislike? There’s plenty of heretics on these boards, and if they can post their views, I think it would be ridiculous to prevent perfectly orthodox Catholics who are in communion with Rome from posting our views.

Posts against the forum rules, of course, should be reported to a moderator and dealt with, but negativity should really be expected from a Traditional Catholic board given that the majority of Catholics aren’t traditional Catholics…

It’s not as if the Saints were never negative:

“I do not believe that many priests are saved; I believe the contrary, that the number of those who are damned is greater.” -St. John Chrysostom

And I think that his quote is just as true today as it was when he said it. Negative? Perhaps, but they are the words of a Catholic saint and certainly should not be banned from a Catholic forum.

 

[Cat]

There is a great deal of abusive behaviour in that forum. Not only that, people have called Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II heretics. One poster said that everything that had come our of John Paul’s mouth was garbage. Another poster said that he hoped John Paul would never be canonized.

Currently there is a thread running where someone brought to the forum an issue of a teacher in his child’s school who is an unwed mother, but the poster’s home town is in his profile. Such specific moral issues should not be aired in a public forum. It’s distasteful. Even when given good advice on what to do, the poster continued to pursue the issue.

On another thread a poster mentioned bishops by name. He was not praising their pastoral efforts. He was bashing them for being pro gay, pro modernism, pro many other things that the Church finds morally wrong. You don’t post bishops names on a Catholic thread and ruin their reputation. Many of us have never met these men. We have no need to know if they are pro gay or pro birth control, etc.

I strongly believe that no one has the right to go on a Catholic forum and call a pope a heretic, modernist or question his canonizations and beatifications. Just because something is said politely does not mean that it can be said at all. Some things you can think, but you should never say in a forum that is meant to bring people to Christ and the Church.

In matters that may do harm to onlookers from other faiths and matters that hurt the image of the Church, there is some room for censorship and for correction.

I agree with the poster and join the request to clean up the Traditionalist forum.

Fraternally,

JR

Amen.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. New Catholics and those who are inquiring into the Catholic faith are hurt and scared when they read posts saying things like, “The OF of the Mass is inferior,” or “Pope John Paul II was a liberal/heretic, etc.”, or “contemporary Christian music in the Mass is contrary to Church teachings.”

I just read a post in which the poster stated that he/she enjoys the TLM because he knows that all the people around him/her are truly knowledgeable and serious about their Catholic faith. Perhaps the poster didn’t realize that what he/she is implying is that most of the people who attend the OF Masses are ignorant and not-serious about their faith. Frankly, I resent that comment very much and think it is judgemental and just plain wrong, unless, of course, that poster is really Jesus, Who love hanging around CAF and posting.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

I just read a post in which the poster stated that he/she enjoys the TLM because he knows that all the people around him/her are truly knowledgeable and serious about their Catholic faith. Perhaps the poster didn’t realize that what he/she is implying is that most of the people who attend the OF Masses are ignorant and not-serious about their faith. Frankly, I resent that comment very much and think it is judgemental and just plain wrong, unless, of course, that poster is really Jesus, Who love hanging around CAF and posting.

I was said poster, and I don’t think that was implied at all in my post. The fact is that people who attend TLM **are **more likely to be more serious in their faith because they are going out of their way (and often their comfort zone) to experience Mass in a different way. Catholics who don’t care about their faith just don’t do that.

Does that imply that Catholics who attend the vernacular Mass don’t care about their faith? Certainly not, and I am curious as to how that is implied.

I would have been lying to post otherwise. That IS the main reason why I love TLM, and I fail to see how that reason is judgmental or offensive.

 

[Cat]

I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I am certainly not schismatic. Most of the traditionalists here aren’t. We love TLM and I think it’s perfectly fine for us (and those who don’t love it quite so much ) to discuss the positives and negatives of it.

In a forum entitled “Traditional Catholicism” preventing posts about Vatican II or the associated Popes is absurd! Is the next step to ban Protestants from putting their views in the Apologetics forum? As has been discussed many times, a dislike of the Novus Ordo is NOT heresy, but even if it WAS (which it’s not), would you prevent people from posting their dislike? There’s plenty of heretics on these boards, and if they can post their views, I think it would be ridiculous to prevent perfectly orthodox Catholics who are in communion with Rome from posting our views.

Posts against the forum rules, of course, should be reported to a moderator and dealt with, but negativity should really be expected from a Traditional Catholic board given that the majority of Catholics aren’t traditional Catholics…

It’s not as if the Saints were never negative:

“I do not believe that many priests are saved; I believe the contrary, that the number of those who are damned is greater.” -St. John Chrysostom

And I think that his quote is just as true today as it was when he said it. Negative? Perhaps, but they are the words of a Catholic saint and certainly should not be banned from a Catholic forum.

I agree with this to a certain extent.

The problem is that new Catholics and inquirers into the Catholic Church do not have the experience, knowledge, or discernment to pick out what is correct from what isn’t.

Shouldn’t these “little ones” be protected? I think so.

If someone reads a post that says, “I think that Pope John Paul II was a heretic, and here are my many reasons why I think that,”–the new Catholic/inquirer has no way of knowing if the person really has any clue, or if they are just faking an identity and laughing their heads off as they sit at their computers spreading discord among the Catholics.

The post can’t really be “reported,” because the poster phrased it as an “opinion.” A very “negative” opinion, but because it’s an opinion, it is allowed to stand on CAF.

And that’s the problem–“little ones,” i.e., new Catholics and inquirers have no one to come to their aid and tell them that the poster is wrong and here’s why. There are voices of reason on this forum, but I’ve seen some of the more radical Traditionalists attack THEM and call them dirty names (e.g., liberal, modernist, “Protestant,” etc.). I’ve also seen traditionalists tell those of us who are not die-hard traditionalist to STAY OUT OF THIS SECTION OF THE FORUM!

So it’s kind of hard for the reasonable Catholic to correct some of the dangerous posts on this section of the Board. Most people can’t take so much “negativity” without becoming weary in their soul.

Because I was kicked out of my Protestant church (Evangelical Free Church in America) by “pastors” using “the Bible” to justify their ousting, I have true problems with “Trust” issues.

I trust my bishop, the priests in my diocese, and the teachers of RCIA and the various Bible studies in my diocese.

But then posters on this forum tell me that my bishop, my priests, my RCIA teachers and Bible study instructors, are all wrong.

What am I supposed to do?

What I am sorely tempted to do is chuck it all. I was screwed by a church once before and it was so painful that I still have nightmares about it. My younger daughter is not involved in any church because she doesn’t trust them.

So when I hear that my bishops, priests, and lay teachers are wrong, I am tempted to just forget the whole idea of any kind of organized religion and throw myself on the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and any other saint who cares about me.

I’m sure Jesus knows what it feels like to be betrayed by those who supposedly are trustworthy, and I think He would treat me with kindness and extend mercy.

At this point, I am not ready to toss the Catholic Church away for the sake of a group of internet whiners who might not even be Catholic. Until my bishop, priests, and lay teachers do something to betray my trust in them, I’ll trust that THEY know more than the “police” on this Forum.

So you see, there is more to it than allowing posters to be “negative.” If this “negativity” is turning people away from the Church, then it should be stopped. If these people want to be “negative,” then why can’t they take it to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and share their woes with Him? Oh…sorry, I forgot–they can’t get to the Blessed Sacrament because it’s surrounded by kneeling teenagers or liturgical dancers or guitar players strumming Haugan and Haas music.

 

[Dauphin]

Another poster said that he hoped John Paul would never be canonized.

And that’s heresy, is it?

There are some who believe that his scandalous actions (e.g. sanctioning prayer to false gods at Assisi, kissing the Quran) are of such a grave nature that they preclude canonization. This position doesn’t mean we can’t hope he’s in heaven; it simply means that his life cannot serve as a model to be held up as the lives of saints are.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

So you see, there is more to it than allowing posters to be “negative.” If this “negativity” is turning people away from the Church, then it should be stopped. If these people want to be “negative,” then why can’t they take it to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and share their woes with Him? Oh…sorry, I forgot–they can’t get to the Blessed Sacrament because it’s surrounded by kneeling teenagers or liturgical dancers or guitar players strumming Haugan and Haas music.

I do see your point, Cat, and I think what we can both agree on is that there is a lot at stake in this discussion - not just on these forums, but in the Church as a whole.

But hear me out here.

Priests can be wrong. Priests can, and sometimes do, spread teachings that are not Catholic teachings. I’m not even talking about traditionalist Catholic teachings here, just look at the contraception issue. Many priests refuse to tell married couples that the Church teaches that it’s a mortal sin.

I don’t think it’s wise to put a ban on the faithful’s discussion of errors committed by clergymen. They DO occur, and if we simply ignore that they do occur, then these errors will be accepted as true by the faithful, which is unacceptable.

Do I think John Paul II was a heretic? Certainly not. Do I disagree with some of the things he did and said? Sure. Does that mean I am no longer Catholic? Absolutely not! I’m no less (or more) Catholic than you.

So to sum it up, I just don’t think it would be right to stop discussion, or even debate, of decisions made by the clergy. The Church is built on the rock, and it will not fall, but it is composed of men, and the Bible certianly implores us to hold our Bishops up to scrutiny.

Indeed, the Fathers of the Church share my viewpoint as far as I know.

And as a side note, bishops have historically fallen into heresy. To pretend otherwise for the benefit of the faithful… well… that statement doesn’t work because it wouldn’t benefit the faithful to live in heresy!

 

[pnewton]

The only way this place can be cleaner is for each poster to police themselves. When we find we are giving in to our more base instincts, re-focus on trying to find the positve in others. I have made myself a promise that if TLM advocates are ever needed in my area, in terms of money or numbers, I will support them, even if it is not what I prefer. So, old dogs can sometimes learn new tricks.

I, like Cat, have the same issue when I see anyone (not just Traditionalists) start to throw stumbling blocks that veer people away from the Catholic Church. Fortunately, when things have gotten the most heated, those topics have been suspended. I guess the moderators have the same issues.

 

[Adonis33]

Wow! I’ve never seen such complaining. “They are so mean!”. If you do not agree with some of the positions, why not engage in debate? Some people have legitimate concerns and experiences. Dismissing them as “mean” and “negative” doesn’t seem very Christian at all.

You should go to the “War on Terror” forum. The things they say about our President would make the remarks in the TC forum look like a love-fest.

I apologize if this sounds harsh - I truly do not want to sound this way - but being a Public School teacher, I have little patience for whining.