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No it’s not, I honestly agree with you. But at times it takes on that tone, don’t you think? It’s sad.

It seems that anytime someone would like to suggest that people take a step back before they speak in negative ways, on public forums, concerning the faith, so as not to cause scandal to the unbelievers, we are told we are bashing Traditionalists. This is not the case. We would say the same to anyone from either side. The Church is to be loved and protected. Not disparaged in public.

God bless you too. 🙂
I am sorry, but I have been called a dissenter several times today alone, and I believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches, including the Vatican II documents.

Figure THAT out!:mad:

And if you think questioning the liturgical changes after the council is disparaging the Church in public (which I bet is likely) that is a big part of the problem.

God bless you as well.
 
And that’s heresy, is it?

There are some who believe that his scandalous actions (e.g. sanctioning prayer to false gods at Assisi, kissing the Quran) are of such a grave nature that they preclude canonization. This position doesn’t mean we can’t hope he’s in heaven; it simply means that his life cannot serve as a model to be held up as the lives of saints are.
No not heretical, but certainly disrespectful, of both the person and the office Disrespect of a Tradition of the Catholic Church is certain to be confusing to anyone new to the Catholic Faith and also cause anger to those of us old timers.

I believe some newcomers log on to forums such as these in order to have their Faith reinforced. When devisiveness among members of the the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH occurs among those who are expected to give the Church, its clergy and laity the respect due, doubt will be felt.

As to Pope John Paul II THE GREAT’s kissing of the Q’uran, I believe that particular copy of such was given to him as a gift. He was then showing respect for the “gift” given him, nothing else.:rolleyes:
 
I am sorry, but I have been called a dissenter several times today alone, and I believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches, including the Vatican II documents.

Figure THAT out!:mad:

And if you think questioning the liturgical changes after the council is disparaging the Church in public (which I bet is likely) that is a big part of the problem.

God bless you as well.
No, my point is there are proper channels to vent your frustrations. Public forums that cause scandal to our Church’s reputation among unbelievers is not the proper channel.

Prayer, appeal to the appropriate authorities, and trust God. That’s all.

My peace I leave unto you.

Christ’s words. And He meant them. When your peace is being stolen, whether it’s over liturgical abuses or forum decorum, it’s not God doing it, it’s not Liberal Catholic Bob or Traditional Catholic Jane, it’s an enemy who knows how to get to you. And it’s up to each of us to regulate our lives in such a way as to not let ourselves be robbed of that Peace.

Sometimes stepping away from these places is what it takes. We each have to know our limits.

I honestly wish you well and the Peace of Christ, you are family.

God bless.
 
No not heretical, but certainly disrespectful, of both the person and the office Disrespect of a Tradition of the Catholic Church is certain to be confusing to anyone new to the Catholic Faith and also cause anger to those of us old timers.

I believe some newcomers log on to forums such as these in order to have their Faith reinforced. When devisiveness among members of the the ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH occurs among those who are expected to give the Church, its clergy and laity the respect due, doubt will be felt.

As to Pope John Paul II THE GREAT’s kissing of the Q’uran, I believe that particular copy of such was given to him as a gift. He was then showing respect for the “gift” given him, nothing else.:rolleyes:
It is legitimate to ask these sorts of questions.

A long time ago I knew a great and holy man. He was a priest, he worked in Rome, and he had a job.

He called himself the Devil’s advocate. During canonization proceedings it was his job to argue that the potential saint was not in fact a saint.

The way he described it to me was something like a trial, where the devil’s advocate and the advocate for the person to be canonized had a legal like proceeding where arguments were presented.

Part of the process involved seeking out and interviewing critics of the potential saint.

Kissing the Koran in public, the ecumenical prayer meetings at Assisi with non Christians, and the suppression of the TLM are standard gripes that traditionalists raise against the last Holy Father.

I don’t agree with all of these at all.

However, asking the questions is NOT invalid.

The Holy Spirit does not guide every action the Pope takes (as some here have argued). Rather it protects him from error when he teaches on faith and morals through the office of the Magesterium.

It isn’t like the traditionalists loyal to Rome are questioning one of John Paul’s official teachings that came through his Magesterium. If that happens, you know you have found someone who is confused.

They ARE pointing out things they feel MAY be arguments against his canonization. EVEN IF I disagree with a majority of what they say, the questions are valid.

God Bless.
 
Another poster said that he hoped John Paul would never be canonized.
What’s wrong with someone not wanting Pope John Paul II canonized?

I don’t understand why you’re upset about this at all… Whats the point of not being allowed to criticize someone in any way just because someone else thinks theyre saintly?
 
What’s wrong with someone not wanting Pope John Paul II canonized?

I don’t understand why you’re upset about this at all… Whats the point of not being allowed to criticize someone in any way just because someone else thinks theyre saintly?
Exactly the point I tried to make above. 🤷
 
No, my point is there are proper channels to vent your frustrations. Public forums that cause scandal to our Church’s reputation among unbelievers is not the proper channel.

Prayer, appeal to the appropriate authorities, and trust God. That’s all.

My peace I leave unto you.

Christ’s words. And He meant them. When your peace is being stolen, whether it’s over liturgical abuses or forum decorum, it’s not God doing it, it’s not Liberal Catholic Bob or Traditional Catholic Jane, it’s an enemy who knows how to get to you. And it’s up to each of us to regulate our lives in such a way as to not let ourselves be robbed of that Peace.

Sometimes stepping away from these places is what it takes. We each have to know our limits.

I honestly wish you well and the Peace of Christ, you are family.

God bless.
This makes no sense. In fact it may be horribly dangerous.

Let me get you straight, if faced with liturgical, or God forbid, other abuses, you advocate prayer and keeping our mouths shut?

Is that what you are saying?

With all due respect, I think this may be immoral. At the very least, recent history shows it to be highly imprudent.
 
This makes no sense. In fact it may be horribly dangerous.

Let me get you straight, if faced with liturgical, or God forbid, other abuses, you advocate prayer and keeping our mouths shut?

Is that what you are saying?

With all due respect, I think this may be immoral. At the very least, recent history shows it to be highly imprudent.
I wonder what, exactly, is accomplished by arguing about it here? A letter to a Bishop or priest would give more results, no?

Just playing Devil’s Advocate.
 
No, my point is there are proper channels to vent your frustrations. Public forums that cause scandal to our Church’s reputation among unbelievers is not the proper channel.

Prayer, appeal to the appropriate authorities, and trust God. That’s all.

My peace I leave unto you.

Christ’s words. And He meant them. When your peace is being stolen, whether it’s over liturgical abuses or forum decorum, it’s not God doing it, it’s not Liberal Catholic Bob or Traditional Catholic Jane, it’s an enemy who knows how to get to you. And it’s up to each of us to regulate our lives in such a way as to not let ourselves be robbed of that Peace.

Sometimes stepping away from these places is what it takes. We each have to know our limits.

I honestly wish you well and the Peace of Christ, you are family.

God bless.
I am sorry. This post is so off the mark I had to reply again.

Does the name St. Peter Damian mean anything to you?

Michael Davies spent his entire career doing harm to the Church? (despite what the Pope had to say?)

Jeanette, I am trying to be as charitable as possible.

This is nuts.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette L View Post
No, my point is there are proper channels to vent your frustrations. Public forums that cause scandal to our Church’s reputation among unbelievers is not the proper channel.

Prayer, appeal to the appropriate authorities, and trust God. That’s all.

My peace I leave unto you.

Christ’s words. And He meant them. When your peace is being stolen, whether it’s over liturgical abuses or forum decorum, it’s not God doing it, it’s not Liberal Catholic Bob or Traditional Catholic Jane, it’s an enemy who knows how to get to you. And it’s up to each of us to regulate our lives in such a way as to not let ourselves be robbed of that Peace.

Sometimes stepping away from these places is what it takes. We each have to know our limits.

I honestly wish you well and the Peace of Christ, you are family.

God bless.

This makes no sense. In fact it may be horribly dangerous.

Let me get you straight, if faced with liturgical, or God forbid, other abuses, you advocate prayer and keeping our mouths shut?

Is that what you are saying?

With all due respect, I think this may be immoral. At the very least, recent history shows it to be highly imprudent.

Yes–I agree.
 
Hey Cathguy, I know you don’t attend the SSPX churches. I was just wondering about people who call themselves trads, but who are not schismatic. I was wondering because I attend an SSPX church, but the tone around here is that SSPX-goers are ‘trads who are schismatic’ versus the ‘trads who aren’t’. What gives?
 
I wonder what, exactly, is accomplished by arguing about it here? A letter to a Bishop or priest would give more results, no?

Just playing Devil’s Advocate.
If you go back and read the only thread I started it was to discuss a faithful and scholarly symposium on orientation in prayer.

Just doing that got me labeled a heretic.

The point is not to name names and complain. Rather to discuss in a forum where there are educated Catholics changes in Catholic praxis and what the effects have been. Things like changes in the Lenten Collects. Things like changes in orientation. Things like changes in music and sacred art.

If a traditional Catholic sub-forum is not the place to do this, where is?

I grow impatient with these posts. So many of them reflect an absolute lack of understanding.
 
I am sorry, but I have been called a dissenter several times today alone, and I believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches, including the Vatican II documents.

Figure THAT out!:mad:

And if you think questioning the liturgical changes after the council is disparaging the Church in public (which I bet is likely) that is a big part of the problem.

God bless you as well.
If I may, I’d like to come at this from the perspective of Mystical Theology. One of the things that the great saints can teach all of us, regardless what side of the aisle we sit on is to keep our inner peace in all situations.

No one had to fight heresy like Francis Xavier or Ignatius of Loyola, yet Ignatius developed a series of spiritual exercises for him and his followers that kept them focussed on Christ. Through an intense life of prayer and penance they managed to preserve their inner peace.

Teresa of Avila was taken before the Inquisition for trying to recover the original spirit of Carmel. While she defended herself before her inquisitors, what we see in her is a certain amount of dignity and composure. She gave all the right answers, asked all the right questions, but she never lost her composure. This won her case.

Our holy father Francis presented himself before Innocent III and Honorius with his rule, which was to renew the Church and restore it to its evangelical roots. He was challenged, questioned and even sent away on several occasions. But we look at him and he never loses his composure or his hope.

Blessed Mother Teresa waited for two years for the Archbishop of Calcutta and Pope Pius XII to acknowledge that Christ wanted her to found an Indian congregation of charity. This was a novel idea at the time. It may still be. She was told not to think about it, not to pray about it, and to ignore the voices that she heard. She obeyed. She never lost her composure.

What do all these folks have in common? Several things, they are not concerned with themselves. Their only concern is with loving Christ. Even when the Church was wrong, they obeyed out of love for Christ and Christ rewarded them for their love. Another common characteristic of these great mystics, they knew that if this was Christ’s will, it would come to pass sooner or later. There was never any reason for them to be in a hurry to reform the Church, because the reforms would come – as long as they were God’s will. The last and most important thing, they were desirous of doing God’s will, not their own will. Therefore, even when they suspected that their superiors, priests, bishops, and even the pope may be mistaken, they always allowed for the benefit of the doubt and they obeyed with patience, no matter how strongly they believed in something. If it never came, then it was not God’s will and they offered the pain of disappointment with Christ’s sufferings on the cross.

The only way to sanctity is through interior silence.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR 🙂
 
This makes no sense. In fact it may be horribly dangerous.

Let me get you straight, if faced with liturgical, or God forbid, other abuses, you advocate prayer and keeping our mouths shut?

Is that what you are saying?

With all due respect, I think this may be immoral. At the very least, recent history shows it to be highly imprudent.
Prayer, proper appeal (humble and earnest appeal to the appropriate authorities) and trust God.

I in no way said to keep your mouth shut. 🤷 The point is to voice your frustrations, your concerns in the proper way. Through proper channels. Not in public forums that cause scandal.

I honestly don’t understand why that is such a foreign concept. 😊 It is very orthodox. How can this be dangerous? We are talking liturgical concerns, are we not?

You are putting words and ideas into my posts that aren’t there.

Please, be calm. Think about what I am saying. I am on your side. You need to keep your peace. Prayer and appropriate venues to voice your concerns will help you in this regard.
 
If I may, I’d like to come at this from the perspective of Mystical Theology. One of the things that the great saints can teach all of us, regardless what side of the aisle we sit on is to keep our inner peace in all situations.

No one had to fight heresy like Francis Xavier or Ignatius of Loyola, yet Ignatius developed a series of spiritual exercises for him and his followers that kept them focussed on Christ. Through an intense life of prayer and penance they managed to preserve their inner peace.

Teresa of Avila was taken before the Inquisition for trying to recover the original spirit of Carmel. While she defended herself before her inquisitors, what we see in her is a certain amount of dignity and composure. She gave all the right answers, asked all the right questions, but she never lost her composure. This won her case.

Our holy father Francis presented himself before Innocent III and Honorius with his rule, which was to renew the Church and restore it to its evangelical roots. He was challenged, questioned and even sent away on several occasions. But we look at him and he never loses his composure or his hope.

Blessed Mother Teresa waited for two years for the Archbishop of Calcutta and Pope Pius XII to acknowledge that Christ wanted her to found an Indian congregation of charity. This was a novel idea at the time. It may still be. She was told not to think about it, not to pray about it, and to ignore the voices that she heard. She obeyed. She never lost her composure.

What do all these folks have in common? Several things, they are not concerned with themselves. Their only concern is with loving Christ. Even when the Church was wrong, they obeyed out of love for Christ and Christ rewarded them for their love. Another common characteristic of these great mystics, they knew that if this was Christ’s will, it would come to pass sooner or later. There was never any reason for them to be in a hurry to reform the Church, because the reforms would come – as long as they were God’s will. The last and most important thing, they were desirous of doing God’s will, not their own will. Therefore, even when they suspected that their superiors, priests, bishops, and even the pope may be mistaken, they always allowed for the benefit of the doubt and they obeyed with patience, no matter how strongly they believed in something. If it never came, then it was not God’s will and they offered the pain of disappointment with Christ’s sufferings on the cross.

The only way to sanctity is through interior silence.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR 🙂
Actually, what is shows is that they, and manyother saints, had the courage to lobby and promote what they felt was right for the Church, even when bishops and popes disagreed.

I think you have made the point FOR us traditionalists, not against us; we pray with fervor for change, and we request it from our priests and bishops. We believe firmly that God will do what is right in his own way, yet we speak out because we wish to do our part to help God, and make ourselves available to him to use as his tools. We keep our inner peace and do penance to rectify the abuses we see too frequently, yet we also speak out against them, lest they be allowed to continue contrary to God’s will.

W have inner peace, yet we speak out. Saints like Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila are great role models for us, because they felt God calling them, and persevered even when bishops and popes told them to give up.

Surely, we will follow in their footsteps.
 
Hey Cathguy, I know you don’t attend the SSPX churches. I was just wondering about people who call themselves trads, but who are not schismatic. I was wondering because I attend an SSPX church, but the tone around here is that SSPX-goers are ‘trads who are schismatic’ versus the ‘trads who aren’t’. What gives?
Good question. Thanks.

First, you aren’t schismatic. The issues center around jurisdiction and obedience vis. a vis. the priests and Bishops of the society. The society is not rightly called in schism, but rather, they currently enjoy an irregular canonical standing with Rome.

First, let me say I admire your zeal, and have respect for you as a fellow Catholic.

Here are the problems I have with the SSPX. Please, if I say anything offensive to you, I apologize in advance. Please call it to my attention. I lean only my own poor understanding of what Holy Mother Church teaches.

First, the Episcopal Consecrations of the four Bishops of the SSPX by Archbishop Lefebvre (the founder of the Society) were done without the Holy Father’s consent. This is a violation of Canon Law. In the new code is a violation punishable with excommunication.

Michael Davies (one of my favorite scholars) was supportive of the SSPX up until the Episcopal Consecrations. At that point, he dropped his support, but still gave full throated support to Tradition. The SSPX began ordaining priests without Rome’s approval.

John Paul II responded to this challenge by excommunicating the four Bishops Archbishop Lefebvre had consecrated. The priests are VALIDLY but illicitly ordained. The priests and faithful and not excommunicate, only the four Bishops.

Since then the Society has been in an irregular Canonical relationship with Rome.

Problems here: The SSPX publish some materials, and preach in some ways, that encourage an almost schismatic spirit. The danger many (including the Holy Father) see is that they may be on the verge of claiming a Magesterium superior to him (if this hasn’t occurred already. Their references to a “spiritual Rome” as opposed to Rome itself are an example of this)

While the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is validly celebrated in SSPX chapels around the country, the faithful of the SSPX are in a difficult position because the priests of the SSPX do NOT enjoy jurisdiction with their local ordinary.

The sacrament of penance requires jurisdiction to be valid. In other words (unless ignorance of the part of the faithful and priests are present) the Sacrament of Penance when celebrated by a priest of the SSPX is invalid.

This is serious stuff. Jurisdiction MATTERS.

The SSPX would argue that John Paul II’s “hard heartedness” towards tradition meant that he was “spiritually unavailable” to the SSPX and therefore they have jurisdiction as part of a situation of emergency. This argument most scholars (and the Holy Father himself… he is the one who matters) find very weak.

SO, the SSPX are in an irregular canonical relationship with Rome, they reject the Second Vatican Council itself (as opposed to faulty interpretations of it) and the priests of the society do not enjoy jurisdiction. A troublesome situation to say the least.

Therefore my advice brother is to seek an E.F. in a Church in full communion with Rome until the situation with the SSPX becomes clearer.

In the meantime, pray.

God bless. I am sorry if I give offense.
 
The fact is that people who attend TLM **are **more likely to be more serious in their faith because they are going out of their way (and often their comfort zone) to experience Mass in a different way.

That IS the main reason why I love TLM, and I fail to see how that reason is judgmental or offensive.
May I ask why you are paying attention to what others around you believe? Isn’t the whole point of Mass, whether Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, to assist in re-presenting Jesus’s sacrifice to the Father?
 
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