Trad forum

[belgianwaffles9]

First, you aren’t schismatic. The issues center around jurisdiction and obedience vis. a vis. the priests and Bishops of the society. The society is not rightly called in schism, but rather, they currently enjoy an irregular canonical standing with Rome.

Haha… some of them sure do seem to enjoy it. Especially that Williamson…

 

[cathguy]

Prayer, proper appeal (humble and earnest appeal to the appropriate authorities) and trust God.

I in no way said to keep your mouth shut. The point is to voice your frustrations, your concerns in the proper way. Through proper channels. Not in public forums that cause scandal.

I honestly don’t understand why that is such a foreign concept. It is very orthodox. How can this be dangerous? We are talking liturgical concerns, are we not?

You are putting words and ideas into my posts that aren’t there.

Please, be calm. Think about what I am saying. I am on your side. You need to keep your peace. Prayer and appropriate venues to voice your concerns will help you in this regard.

I am trying to understand you.

Would books and periodicals be public forums that cause scandal?

Then Michael Davies, the editors of the major orthodox Catholic periodicals and websites that discuss liturgical and other issues of controversy in the Church, and a TON of good and faithful scholars and journalists are causing scandal to the Church?

This seems to be what you are saying.

Was Mother Angelica founding EWTN a cause of “scandal?” When she gave her “I’m sick and tired of you, liberal Church in the United States” talk on national television, was that a cause of scandal?

These are important questions. Your post does not comport with what I would regard as faithful Catholic action. Perhaps I am wrong. Please enlighten me.

God bless.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Actually, what is shows is that they, and manyother saints, had the courage to lobby and promote what they felt was right for the Church, even when bishops and popes disagreed.

I think you have made the point FOR us traditionalists, not against us; we pray with fervor for change, and we request it from our priests and bishops. We believe firmly that God will do what is right in his own way, yet we speak out because we wish to do our part to help God, and make ourselves available to him to use as his tools. We keep our inner peace and do penance to rectify the abuses we see too frequently, yet we also speak out against them, lest they be allowed to continue contrary to God’s will.

W have inner peace, yet we speak out. Saints like Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila are great role models for us, because they felt God calling them, and persevered even when bishops and popes told them to give up.

Surely, we will follow in their footsteps.

But they did not go around in public forums trying to rally the troups. This is the difference. Stirring up passions of the laymen against the Church authorities.

They took their concerns to the proper authorities in humility and obedience, they pled their case and left the rest up to God.

And they received their reward.

Big difference.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

May I ask why you are paying attention to what others around you believe? Isn’t the whole point of Mass, whether Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form, to assist in re-presenting Jesus’s sacrifice to the Father?

Haha… *paying attention *to what others believe…? It really isn’t that hard to notice the difference in reverence between the EF and the OF. Or even, for that matter, between say a Solemn Mass and a “Folk Mass” in the OF.

The difference in beliefs is obvious… very little “paying attention” required.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

But they did not go around in public forums trying to rally the troups. This is the difference. Stirring up passions of the laymen against the Church authorities.

They took their concerns to the proper authorities in humility and obedience, they pled their case and left the rest up to God.

And they received their reward.

Big difference.

Oh, dear…

You’re sadly mistaken. We are not stirring up the laymen against Church authority, we are stirring in up in favor of Church authority. in fact, for THE Authority: Jesus Christ, and his deposit of faith which has been passed down in the form of Sacred Tradition.

We promote reverence, knoweldge, and full participation in every aspect of the Church. Was not Vatican II very focused on this idea?

We ‘rally the troops,’ yes, but we rally them TO the Church and FOR the Church. You cannot spin it any other way.

 

[cathguy]

But they did not go around in public forums trying to rally the troups. This is the difference. Stirring up passions of the laymen against the Church authorities.

They took their concerns to the proper authorities in humility and obedience, they pled their case and left the rest up to God.

And they received their reward.

Big difference.

So mother Angelica was a “cause of scandal.”

Right.

Sorry Jeanette, you’ve lost me.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

So mother Angelica was a “cause of scandal.”

Right.

Sorry Jeanette, you’ve lost me.

Well we better help eachother out, cus we’re lost together… and it looks like we’ll be lost for a good long while

 

[Walking_Home]

Oh, dear…

You’re sadly mistaken. We are not stirring up the laymen against Church authority, we are stirring in up in favor of Church authority. in fact, for THE Authority: Jesus Christ, and his deposit of faith which has been passed down in the form of Sacred Tradition.

We promote reverence, knoweldge, and full participation in every aspect of the Church. Was not Vatican II very focused on this idea?

We ‘rally the troops,’ yes, but we rally them TO the Church and FOR the Church. You cannot spin it any other way.

---

Bingo.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

---

Bingo.

And with that, I shall go to bed.

Hopefully this thread wont run away without me and be at 15 or so pages by the time i wake up; i should like to continue this.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I am trying to understand you.

Would books and periodicals be public forums that cause scandal?

Then Michael Davies, the editors of the major orthodox Catholic periodicals and websites that discuss liturgical and other issues of controversy in the Church, and a TON of good and faithful scholars and journalists are causing scandal to the Church?

This seems to be what you are saying.

Was Mother Angelica founding EWTN a cause of “scandal?” When she gave her “I’m sick and tired of you, liberal Church in the United States” talk on national television, was that a cause of scandal?

These are important questions. Your post does not comport with what I would regard as faithful Catholic action. Perhaps I am wrong. Please enlighten me.

God bless.

Books and periodicals are by and large in house discussions. They are not the types of venues that the average layman or casual enquirer are going to stumble upon when perusing the internet looking for answers as to whether the Catholic Church is in fact the one true Church.

I am talking about what people see when they come here looking for the Church. Looking for peace. Looking for a safe haven, the Truth.

You and I are talking apples and oranges.

Mother Angelica was talking mostly to a Catholic audience. And if I’m not mistaken, and correct me if I’m wrong about this (I’m sure you will ) was asked to soften things a bit when she came up against the authority of her own bishop, and she eventually humbly obeyed.

There is a huge difference between in house disputes and how to deal with them appropriately, and hanging out the dirty laundry in public, so that all who come here looking for the faith of our Church will go away confused and disappointed. A stumbling block.

Does this make sense?

This forum is called Catholic Answers, whose mission is to reach the seekers of the faith. It has been turned into a gripe session, more than likely turning more away than drawing them in.

Does this make sense?

I’m saying keep the in house stuff, in house. Go through the appropriate channels. The proper places to discuss in house disputes.

My heart is for the potential convert. I was there once. This place was not like it is now. I found real answers. Had I run into what goes on here now, it more than likely would have taken me much longer to find my way. I was not looking for another church filled with turmoil.

I hope you understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your concerns. I am asking everyone here to think beyond what they are currently thinking about.

 

[Spirithound]

Haha… *paying attention *to what others believe…? It really isn’t that hard to notice the difference in reverence between the EF and the OF. Or even, for that matter, between say a Solemn Mass and a “Folk Mass” in the OF.

The difference in beliefs is obvious… very little “paying attention” required.

Whatever, man. The point is, other people shouldn’t be the main reason, or maybe even one of the main reasons we attend a certain Mass. Maybe we just like Latin, or Father McJ uses incense during the morning Mass, or Father Q is a good preacher, or maybe I’ve just been a part of quieter congregations and I’m way off base…

 

[Walking_Home]

Books and periodicals are by and large in house discussions. They are not the types of venues that the average layman or casual enquirer are going to stumble upon when perusing the internet looking for answers as to whether the Catholic Church is in fact the one true Church.

I am talking about what people see when they come here looking for the Church. Looking for peace. Looking for a safe haven, the Truth.

You and I are talking apples and oranges.

Mother Angelica was talking mostly to a Catholic audience. And if I’m not mistaken, and correct me if I’m wrong about this (I’m sure you will ) was asked to soften things a bit when she came up against the authority of her own bishop, and she eventually humbly obeyed.

There is a huge difference between in house disputes and how to deal with them appropriately, and hanging out the dirty laundry in public, so that all who come here looking for the faith of our Church will go away confused and disappointed. A stumbling block.

Does this make sense?

This forum is called Catholic Answers, whose mission is to reach the seekers of the faith. It has been turned into a gripe session, more than likely turning more away than drawing them in.

Does this make sense?

I’m saying keep the in house stuff, in house. Go through the appropriate channels. The proper places to discuss in house disputes.

My heart is for the potential convert. I was there once. This place was not like it is now. I found real answers. Had I run into what goes on here now, it more than likely would have taken me much longer to find my way. I was not looking for another church filled with turmoil.

I hope you understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your concerns. I am asking everyone here to think beyond what they are currently thinking about.

---

That may not be the case —I believe she threatened to blow her network up —rather than let it fall into the hands of liberals and/or dissenters.

 

[Jeanette_L]

So mother Angelica was a “cause of scandal.”

Right.

Sorry Jeanette, you’ve lost me.

There is a way to lead people into a greater, deeper faith without harshness, without causing strife and rebellion.

I’m asking you to try to understand this. Strife is not the answer.

Leading people into change, into inner conversion, one at a time, through humility and example, is the answer.

I know this line of thought is lost here. I’m sorry for that.

 

[JReducation]

Actually, what is shows is that they, and manyother saints, had the courage to lobby and promote what they felt was right for the Church, even when bishops and popes disagreed.

I think you have made the point FOR us traditionalists, not against us; we pray with fervor for change, and we request it from our priests and bishops. We believe firmly that God will do what is right in his own way, yet we speak out because we wish to do our part to help God, and make ourselves available to him to use as his tools. We keep our inner peace and do penance to rectify the abuses we see too frequently, yet we also speak out against them, lest they be allowed to continue contrary to God’s will.

W have inner peace, yet we speak out. Saints like Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila are great role models for us, because they felt God calling them, and persevered even when bishops and popes told them to give up.

Surely, we will follow in their footsteps.

The bold is mine.

I was not trying to make a point for or against anyone. That is not my role or my intent. I was simply laying out the formula for holiness.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

---

That may not be the case —I believe she threatened to blow her network up —rather than let it fall into the hands of liberals and/or dissenters.

So you skipped over the entire post and just picked out this one thing? Is that really all you see here?

I think I rest my case.

 

[Walking_Home]

So you skipped over the entire post and just picked out this one thing? Is that really all you see here?

I think I rest my case.

---

No I read your entire post – I just decided to address that one aspect. You case – well whatever you don’t agree with I would guess --to you would be scandalous.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Hey Cathguy, no it’s not offensive. You say the same things that the church says (though ultimately I believe that’ll change, hopefully soon). The only point I was trying to make about it all is that a lot of the ‘trads’ around here say things like “I’m trad, but I’m not a schismatic”. Well, I personally don’t know any schismatic trads, except the one or two SSPV people I’ve ever met.

So basically, I’m a trad, just not a schismatic one (duh).

 

[JReducation]

Good question. Thanks.

First, you aren’t schismatic. The issues center around jurisdiction and obedience vis. a vis. the priests and Bishops of the society. The society is not rightly called in schism, but rather, they currently enjoy an irregular canonical standing with Rome.

First, let me say I admire your zeal, and have respect for you as a fellow Catholic.

Here are the problems I have with the SSPX. Please, if I say anything offensive to you, I apologize in advance. Please call it to my attention. I lean only my own poor understanding of what Holy Mother Church teaches.

First, the Episcopal Consecrations of the four Bishops of the SSPX by Archbishop Lefebvre (the founder of the Society) were done without the Holy Father’s consent. This is a violation of Canon Law. In the new code is a violation punishable with excommunication.

Michael Davies (one of my favorite scholars) was supportive of the SSPX up until the Episcopal Consecrations. At that point, he dropped his support, but still gave full throated support to Tradition. The SSPX began ordaining priests without Rome’s approval.

John Paul II responded to this challenge by excommunicating the four Bishops Archbishop Lefebvre had consecrated. The priests are VALIDLY but illicitly ordained. The priests and faithful and not excommunicate, only the four Bishops.

Since then the Society has been in an irregular Canonical relationship with Rome.

Problems here: The SSPX publish some materials, and preach in some ways, that encourage an almost schismatic spirit. The danger many (including the Holy Father) see is that they may be on the verge of claiming a Magesterium superior to him (if this hasn’t occurred already. Their references to a “spiritual Rome” as opposed to Rome itself are an example of this)

While the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is validly celebrated in SSPX chapels around the country, the faithful of the SSPX are in a difficult position because the priests of the SSPX do NOT enjoy jurisdiction with their local ordinary.

The sacrament of penance requires jurisdiction to be valid. In other words (unless ignorance of the part of the faithful and priests are present) the Sacrament of Penance when celebrated by a priest of the SSPX is invalid.

This is serious stuff. Jurisdiction MATTERS.

The SSPX would argue that John Paul II’s “hard heartedness” towards tradition meant that he was “spiritually unavailable” to the SSPX and therefore they have jurisdiction as part of a situation of emergency. This argument most scholars (and the Holy Father himself… he is the one who matters) find very weak.

SO, the SSPX are in an irregular canonical relationship with Rome, they reject the Second Vatican Council itself (as opposed to faulty interpretations of it) and the priests of the society do not enjoy jurisdiction. A troublesome situation to say the least.

Therefore my advice brother is to seek an E.F. in a Church in full communion with Rome until the situation with the SSPX becomes clearer.

In the meantime, pray.

God bless. I am sorry if I give offense.

This is one of the best summaries of the situation that I have ever seen on CAF and one of the most charitable.

:clapping:

Fraternally,

JR

 

[JReducation]

---

That may not be the case —I believe she threatened to blow her network up —rather than let it fall into the hands of liberals and/or dissenters.

With all due respect, I believe that Jeanette’s post was expressing a grave concern for those who come to this forum looking for answers to their faith journey.

I believe that this is more important to the most Sacred Heart of Jesus than an alleged terrorist threat made by Mother Angelica.

We should respect this concern for souls who are seeking the Church and respond to that. Selectioning the piece on Mother Angelica and adding the alleged threat, does nothing to encourage our ministry to those who come here in search of truth.

In fact, it may just deter them at the door, if they believe that this actually happened. Which I happen to know that this was never the case. The case was completely different and was not meant for public digestion. That’s why it’s not published.

The media created this alleged terrorist frenzy on the part of Mother. Mother’s heart is not there. Her heart is with the Church and our holy father Francis. When told to obey, she obeys, she does not threaten.

Her television network is not her work. It is the work of the Holy Spirit through the Church. She is just an instrument, like her father Francis wanted her to be.

He did not found our second order of nuns to be in conflict with the Church, but to be obedient until death, even when they were right. Our holy mother Clare was his primary example of this.

Like Clare and Francis, Mother and Jeanette share the same concern for those who are cracking the door open to look inside the Church and see what’s there.

We too should be united to this concern and focus on this point, not on little points that we pick up here and there.

The conversion of souls is more important that any comment allegedly made by Mother.

I said allegedly, because this comment was never made in this context.

Let us recover what is really important, our ministry to those who are searching and ignore the petty gossip that goes around.

Please pray for me.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR

 

[I_Believe]

There’s a song in here somewhere