Trade Unions

[coolduude]

Hi all,

I recently started another thread about dissenting from Church teaching, and if dissent is allowed or not. That thread can be found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766363

The teaching that makes me uncomfortable is the Church’s teaching on trade unions. Being a conservative, Catholic, American, trade unions make me uncomfortable because of their highly partisan nature here in the United States. Yet, the Church teaches that they are to be allowed and, to a point, encouraged. I don’t like trade unions; indeed, I would oppose them in the public square. But if the Church says I must accept them, I will obey.

My question: am I allowed to dissent and disagree with this teaching or must I obey the Church? If I am to obey, how can I go about doing that in the States where trade unions are politically opposite of me in numerous ways?

Thanks for the help.

Relevant citations on trade unions:
Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church paragraphs 287, 301-305.
Catechism 2430

 

[OxygenMan]

Much of the Catholic position on trade unions was developed during the height of the industrial revolution, when the focus of the unions was still almost entirely on economics instead of latching onto certain social issues. Still, there are many nations where trade unions are purely economic in their goals and do not delve into the kinds of social issues that they tend to here in the USA.

I’m certain you can oppose individual unions for their partisan politics and their position on social issues. You can even oppose them on economic issues. But from what I understand, you can’t call for an outright ban on the ability of workers to form unions for trade purposes. The Catholic labor movement used to be a strong force in Europe before WWI. I’m not sure what state it is in now.

 

[po18guy]

The Church supports the organization of workers from a standpoint of justice. 100 years ago, there was observable injustice done to workers, and the union movement was born to counter that. However, as with all human endeavors, it has grown into a movement that is intoxicated with money and power. Union greed has countered, if not replaced, corporate greed. Either way, it is greed, which is an injustice.

As well, the Church permits the establishment of trade unions, but not the necessity of them. Huge difference. Every act in support of greed or of objective evil by modern corporate unions must be opposed by Catholics. That hackneyed slogan from the 1960s regarding the “military-industrial complex” has been replaced by the government-union complex. Slapping a 'union made" badge on union support for objective evil (where that is actually occurring) does not affect the nature of the evil.

 

[PatrickSebast]

When you get to a point that your political affiliation is impacting your ability to understand and embrace church teaching it is probably time to take a couple steps back and evaluate whether your ideas are coming from an actual well reasoned thought process based on Natural Law or simple group loyalty.

Trade Unions are a concept. They allow workers to gather together and assert the value of their product (labor) in market. The idea that individuals should not be able to gather, bargain, and assert their influence on their environment or society is VERY contrary to church teaching on social justice.

Opposing trade unions as a whole on the basis that people are abusing the power developed from the unions is hardly different than opposing democratic governments because people have utilized them to legalize abortion and approve gay marriage

 

[coolduude]

Opposing trade unions as a whole on the basis that people are abusing the power developed from the unions is hardly different than opposing democratic governments because people have utilized them to legalize abortion and approve gay marriage

Good analogy. That helps me see it better now.

 

[po18guy]

When you get to a point that your political affiliation is impacting your ability to understand and embrace church teaching it is probably time to take a couple steps back and evaluate whether your ideas are coming from an actual well reasoned thought process based on Natural Law or simple group loyalty.

Trade Unions are a concept. They allow workers to gather together and assert the value of their product (labor) in market. The idea that individuals should not be able to gather, bargain, and assert their influence on their environment or society is VERY contrary to church teaching on social justice.

Opposing trade unions as a whole on the basis that people are abusing the power developed from the unions is hardly different than opposing democratic governments because people have utilized them to legalize abortion and approve gay marriage

As corporations need reform, we are well into the age in which union reform is needed. What began as a nobel experiment has devolved, by human nature, into something of much baser ideals. From whence shall this reform arrive?

 

[Jimmygill88]

The right for Unions to exist as a bulwark against the exploitation of workers is not only desirable but essential. The church supports the existence of unions. The church does not force you to agree with the position that Unions take. Labour and Capital both have faults but Unions make it easier to resist the more savage attacks made on workers by corporations. Defrauding a worker of just remuneration is an extremely serious sin after all

 

[po18guy]

The right for Unions to exist as a bulwark against the exploitation of workers is not only desirable but essential. The church supports the existence of unions. The church does not force you to agree with the position that Unions take. Labour and Capital both have faults but Unions make it easier to resist the more savage attacks made on workers by corporations. Defrauding a worker of just remuneration is an extremely serious sin after all

I don’t know how it has shaped up in the UK, but here across the pond, unions have become hyper-political, and have begun to push for social changes which conflict with Church teaching. As always it seems, it is about power and money. Lamentably, we are living in quite a different age from when James Cardinal Gibbons, only the second American Cardinal, spoke forcefully in support of trade unions.

 

[InigoMontoya]

One must really remember that a trade union is merely a legal tool. When properly used as a tool for the professionalism of a trade and as a bulwark against exploitation, they can be an absolute benefit to society from both an economic and social development standpoints. As with any tool though, they can by misused to the detriment of all parties.

Unfortunately, or fortunately - depending on your perspective, most trade unions within the United States have had to develop lobbying arms and politicize their positions. It’s simply the nature of our regulatory and legislative climate in the United States.

 

[Jimmygill88]

I think that it only realistic to expect the representatives of large groups of workers to use politics as part of their fight for their members’ interests. Modern unions may not conform to the 19th century template (but neither does the workforce)

 

[po18guy]

I think that it only realistic to expect the representatives of large groups of workers to use politics as part of their fight for their members’ interests. Modern unions may not conform to the 19th century template (but neither does the workforce)

And, France is quite another story! They are just so… French!

 

[adf417]

IMO I think the trade unions have begun to abuse the purpose of Rerum Novarum. I see this encyclical as going a long way in protecting the poor and unjust but a very large portion of the trade unions have overstepped their purpose.

There are many trade unions still fighting for better wages and benefits for workers already making as much as 4 times the minimum wage with benefits most government agencies aspire to. When negotiation time comes they will continue to negotiate for even higher wages with the main justification being “the company is making enough money, it should share equally”. While this statement could be considered to be the main focus during the infancy of Rerum Novarum and that all working conditions at that time needed addressing, it is no longer as wide a focus as once needed.

Obviously there is still need for some sort of union system for workers with insufficient means of caring for their families but I don’t see where a union fighting for a contract that will elevate its employees from $28 per hour to $30 per hour is the answer. If anything, there could be a good arguement made that it is adding to the problem. How is a steel workers union negotiations helping the Wal-Mart worker?

Peace!!!

 

[po18guy]

IMO I think the trade unions have begun to abuse the purpose of Rerum Novarum. I see this encyclical as going a long way in protecting the poor and unjust but a very large portion of the trade unions have overstepped their purpose.

There are many trade unions still fighting for better wages and benefits for workers already making as much as 4 times the minimum wage with benefits most government agencies aspire to. When negotiation time comes they will continue to negotiate for even higher wages with the main justification being “the company is making enough money, it should share equally”. While this statement could be considered to be the main focus during the infancy of Rerum Novarum and that all working conditions at that time needed addressing, it is no longer as wide a focus as once needed.

Obviously there is still need for some sort of union system for workers with insufficient means of caring for their families but I don’t see where a union fighting for a contract that will elevate its employees from $28 per hour to $30 per hour is the answer. If anything, there could be a good arguement made that it is adding to the problem. How is a steel workers union negotiations helping the Wal-Mart worker?

Peace!!!

As a practical matter, their demands (in many cases) have escalated to the point of pushing jobs out of the country. However, those lost manufacturing jobs have been replaced by unionized service worker, transportation and dockworker jobs. We now pay union wages and benefits to those who no longer produce goods, but only move them from place to place. The fastest growing area of union activity: Government - which is also on of the fastest growing segments of the US economy. A very cozy relationship.

 

[adf417]

As a practical matter, their demands (in many cases) have escalated to the point of pushing jobs out of the country. However, those lost manufacturing jobs have been replaced by unionized service worker, transportation and dockworker jobs. We now pay union wages and benefits to those who no longer produce goods, but only move them from place to place. The fastest growing area of union activity: Government - which is also on of the fastest growing segments of the US economy. A very cozy relationship.

Indeed! I work in manufacturing and I see it every day. Not only are the manufacturing jobs lost but the skills are also amd even if we want manufacturing back its not a matter of just passing laws to make it happen.

I knew a European company looking to establish manufacturing here in the US for thier US customer base. I think they have sense abandoned the idea due to quality and service issues. Even if this was not directly related to the unions, (not sure) it was indirectly as the unions establish standards in pay scales and benifit packages that all manufacturing has to compete with whether you are union are not.

Peace!!!

 

[po18guy]

Indeed! I work in manufacturing and I see it every day. Not only are the manufacturing jobs lost but the skills are also amd even if we want manufacturing back its not a matter of just passing laws to make it happen.

I knew a European company looking to establish manufacturing here in the US for thier US customer base. I think they have sense abandoned the idea due to quality and service issues. Even if this was not directly related to the unions, (not sure) it was indirectly as the unions establish standards in pay scales and benifit packages that all manufacturing has to compete with whether you are union are not.

Peace!!!

The Japanese/Korean model is far superior. Simply treat workers as family and take good care of them. Involve them in the family business and all will prosper. Under those circumstances, there is no adversarial relationship. It is very Christian in nature, actually.

 

[Jimmygill88]

The Japanese/Korean model is far superior. Simply treat workers as family and take good care of them. Involve them in the family business and all will prosper. Under those circumstances, there is no adversarial relationship. It is very Christian in nature, actually.

I don’t really want to be part of my employers ‘family’. I want good pay and conditions. It has to be remembered that if sick pay or holiday pay or maternity pay did not exist we would still have to fight for it. Taking the eye off the ball for a second when dealing with capitalists whose raison d’être is to make money is a mistake. That is why unions are necessary

 

[adf417]

I don’t really want to be part of my employers ‘family’. I want good pay and conditions. It has to be remembered that if sick pay or holiday pay or maternity pay did not exist we would still have to fight for it. Taking the eye off the ball for a second when dealing with capitalists whose raison d’être is to make money is a mistake. That is why unions are necessary

I agree to an extent Jimmy. But as I asked above, how is the steel workers union negotiations who are already making well above average wages and benefits and continually fighting for more because “the company can afford it”, helping the Wal-Mart worker or the like?

What I see is the Robin Hood principal not fully in effect, “Stealing for the rich but not giving to the poor”.

Peace Bro!!!

 

[_Abyssinia]

Catholic teachings on unions

Though unions ought to have a social role and a political voice, they are not “political parties,” ought to avoid the quest for political power, ought not to be “too closely linked” to political parties, and at the same time ought not to be forced to submit to the “decisions of political parties.” They ought to be independent from the political process, and never “become an instrument for other purposes.” Their role is to make the political arena “sensitive to labor problems,” and–in a manner independent of partisan spirit–help the political process include the rights of workers as part of the political mix. (Compendium, No. 307)

If unions become instruments of political parties, or if political parties become instruments of unions, there will necessarily be imbalance. Unions in such cases “easily lose contact with their specific role, which is to secure the just rights of workers within the framework of the common good of the whole of society.” (Compendium, No. 307)

Quite different from modern unions which have very close tie to one party, being the democrat party

 

[Jimmygill88]

Catholic teachings on unions

Quite different from modern unions which have very close tie to one party, being the democrat party

And quite different from the UK where the Unions founded the Labour Party to be their voice in Parliament

 

[aspirant]

I recently started another thread about dissenting from Church teaching, and if dissent is allowed or not.

This probably belongs on the other thread:
Lumen Gentium #25:

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

I have heard an orthodox moral theologian express the notion that non-assent might be considered distinct from dissent; non-assent meaning something more like “I’m not there yet, but I’m really trying” as opposed to “I reject that” (which would be dissent).

In either case, it would not be appropriate to sow doubt or dissent in others, e.g. by arguing against the Church’s teaching. (Please understand I’m speaking generally, not claiming that you are doing this! I understand that you are just expressing where you are right now, not trying to persuade anyone else away from Church teaching! )

For example, I once knew an RCIA instructor who was “not there yet, but really trying” with regard to the Church’s teaching on the death penalty. She understood what the Church taught, but she found it hard to really accept and internalize. But because she was an RCIA instructor, she “shelved” her own difficulty in classes. When the topic arose, she expressed only what the Church teaches and, if necessary, would make every effort to explain and defend it. I think this is a pretty good example of non-assent not being quite the same thing as dissent.

If you think this is somewhat similar to your experience, I hope it will help. Keep trying to better understand what the Church teaches and why, making good-faith efforts to fully embrace and integrate the teaching. Fortunately, in your case, there are a lot of great papal documents to help you along.

Union greed has countered, if not replaced, corporate greed.

In an economy in which corporate profit margins just hit an all-time high, and companies are making more per dollar of sales than they ever have before, while wages as a percent of the economy are at an all-time low, it seems corporate greed is alive and well.

When you get to a point that your political affiliation is impacting your ability to understand and embrace church teaching it is probably time to take a couple steps back and evaluate whether your ideas are coming from an actual well reasoned thought process based on Natural Law or simple group loyalty.

A good word for all of us.

Opposing trade unions as a whole on the basis that people are abusing the power developed from the unions is hardly different than opposing democratic governments because people have utilized them to legalize abortion and approve gay marriage

“Abusus non tollit usum.”

workers already making as much as 4 times the minimum wage

If, in some areas, a worker would need to work over 100 hours a week at minimum wage to afford rent, that might not be unreasonable.

How is a steel workers union negotiations helping the Wal-Mart worker?

I would think that a steel workers’ union would favor Wal-Mart workers organizing a union for their trade as well.