Tradition and the message of Pope Francis

[bilop]

Umm, “other people” include fellow oblates who have said they experienced the same thing.

As Tim points out the notion of ongoing conversion, and transformation is an integral part of both monastic vows and the oblate’s promise. In fact the formula is exactly the same but one is a vow, the other a promise.

Yet, such a “conversion” is in no way required for salvation.

People who never experience any mysticism are not somehow “lesser” Catholics than those who do. God reaches different people in different ways.

God Bless

 

[1AugustSon7]

A time of crisis of faith where many church going Catholic seem to not even know the basics or care to much about them.

We actually put on plays in our [catholic] churches showing the ressurection, [etc.] . . . and these performances I do not wholly condemn, but how much more glorious a spectactle it would be to hear the voices of so many youths dedicating themselves to Christ, so many initiates pronouncing their vows, renouncing the world, abjuring Satan; to see new Christians bearing the mark of the Lord on their foreheads, to behold the great crowd of candidates coming up from the sacred laver, to hear the voices of the multitude acclaiming the beginners in Christ . . . If this were done, we should not have many at the age of fifty who do not know what was vowed for them in baptism and have not the faintest notion of the meaning of the creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and the sacraments. I know this from conversations and from hearing confessions. **And what is worse, there are priests among us who have never given any serious thought to what Christianity is all about **. . . You say that this is the repition of baptism. No indeed, not any more than daily sprinkling with holy water.

• Erasmus, 16th century, on the the controvery of the Anabaptists (re-baptism), whose commitment to their faith he [Erasmus] much respected, and thought the Catholic Church could learn something from their dedication.

The point is this: this is not so new as some might imagine. Hard-core and learned Catholics have always been heart-wrenched at the spectacle of a seeming general ignorance of the Gospel amongst lay Catholics, even priests.

The extreme measures often advocated to remedy the issue themselves generate problems. In Erasmus’ case, does ritualistically re-enacting (not repeating) baptism not have the effect of making the baptism received by infants seem ineffective? Are we not really trying to create a kind of “super-sacrament” that will “amend” the apparent defficiencies we see in God’s people who have received His sacraments? Is there not a danger in this of the efficacy of the sacrament itself being in effect repudiated? Are we creating new “classes” - or rankings - of Catholics that have no basis in the Church’s Tradition or her divine constitution? Are we perhaps bordering closely on murmuring about the efficacy or power of God’s gifts? How far can we complain about average-Joe Catholic before we start to begin in reality to complain about God Himself and His work, the Church He has inaugurated on earth?

Again, let Erasmus’ above quote (taken from Erasmus of Christendom, p. 261, by Roland H. Bainton), prove that these concerns are part and parcel of the Church’s life - especially since the conversion of Constantine and again when whole barbarous nations en masse as in the West after the Fall of Rome. Those situations arguably presented greater dangers and challenges to the integrity of the faith than our modern, more or less post-Christian situation does - because there is still a Christian cultural undercurrent at least to work with and many Christian values, albeit secularized, generally remain. Trying to encourage a Frankish or Germanic warrior to practice charity and value love would have been a daunting task. No doubt the grace of his baptism - albeit motivated on some questionable logic, or possibly received under the auspices of Arianism - helped make this task a lot easier for Christianizing and Catholicizing the new converts and the culture generally.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Well, you know for yourself whether you are “going through the motions of popular piety and going to Sunday Mass.”

But as for *other *“people” doing this, well, that’s wayyyy above your pay grade, Ora.

No one knows the genuine quality of anyone else’s piety, unless the other says, “I’m just going through the motions,” (etc.)

 

[TimothyH]

Yet, such a “conversion” is in no way required for salvation.

People who never experience any mysticism are not somehow “lesser” Catholics than those who do. God reaches different people in different ways.

God Bless

Interior conversion is not the same thing as mysticism. You are discussing two different things. Many don’t have mystical experiences but that does not exclude interior conversion.

If you want to understand mysticism, I highly recommend The Sun at Midnight: Monastic Experience of the Christian Mystery by Bernardo Olivera.

bks0.books.google.com/books?id=VL2wCc3V4ekC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72x7Eyza6vKad4-9TeQ3uMYhp66mAzQ0BfbSj2Y3keANmWG5FBlU7vQ4sI3kPqSiaGhKVOOA6fEnodrmUh2JeNghHGkeIdiq65e1nsdFXXoq8OLL2daiimHr0rySyhzpMmdkmA

-Tim-

 

[Elizabeth502]

It’s outside the Mass that one sees a person’s transformation. It’s how they interact with family, colleagues, and others.

Why should you care about anyone else’s “transformation” except your own?
Why are you so interested in evaluating the character of anyone else’s spirituality? I’m not talking here of any explicit statement of heterodoxy, aspostasy, disbelief, but rather the behavior of others.

We are to monitor our own behavior, our own motivations, our own “call to continual conversion,” our own transformation. And as to “observing” others, we don’t have a video camera on them, I presume, outside of our first-hand experience. Maybe someone who “interacted” poorly within our view later apologized and “transformed” himself outside of our view.

 

[TimothyH]

Why should you care about anyone else’s “transformation” except your own?
Why are you so interested in evaluating the character of anyone else’s spirituality? I’m not talking here of any explicit statement of heterodoxy, aspostasy, disbelief, but rather the behavior of others.

We are to monitor our own behavior, our own motivations, our own “call to continual conversion,” our own transformation. And as to “observing” others, we don’t have a video camera on them, I presume, outside of our first-hand experience. Maybe someone who “interacted” poorly within our view later apologized and “transformed” himself outside of our view.

We do care about others, our family and friends. Our pastor’s souls will be judged on how well he led us to ongoing conversion. Ora is an oblate to a Benedictine monastic community. The members of the community care deeply about each others ongoing conversion. I constantly encourage my daughters to repent, to turn back to God daily.

Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

Conversion is exactly the message of the Gospel. This is what Pope Francis is talking about in the words cited in the original post.

But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing.

I think many Evangelicals understand this better than many Catholics in that they are not afraid to be a witness to Christ, not afraid to explain 1) what my life was like before Christ, 2) how I met Christ and, 3) how my life has changed because of Christ. That is a conversion story. Every one of us has to ask ourselves how our lives have changed because we know Christ rather than how our lives have changed because of rules.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

Why should you care about anyone else’s “transformation” except your own?
Why are you so interested in evaluating the character of anyone else’s spirituality? I’m not talking here of any explicit statement of heterodoxy, aspostasy, disbelief, but rather the behavior of others.

We are to monitor our own behavior, our own motivations, our own “call to continual conversion,” our own transformation. And as to “observing” others, we don’t have a video camera on them, I presume, outside of our first-hand experience. Maybe someone who “interacted” poorly within our view later apologized and “transformed” himself outside of our view.

Whoa Elizabeth, slow down. I nowhere inferred that I was judging the character of one’s spirituality. There but for the grace of God go I, you may have missed the part where I was witnessing about my own conversion experience. I know I am not alone in that experience because I have shared with others who have been through the same thing. When I see my (young adult) children make the same mistakes I did, I say “there but for the grace of God go I”.

I am merely making an observation, and not one based on being judgmental but based on the my own experiences and the witness of others I encounter, what I have read on the subject, my experiences of a small taste of monastic life and from speaking to monks.

And also from the witness of my own wife, who has undergone a huge transformation from being very hostile to Catholicism and monasticism and a strict Evangelical (she’s Anglican), to being intrigued and curious about it and hungering to read about it and experience it. She has been touched by grace, and our marriage has been saved by it.

I have no control over others’ conversion process nor do I ever criticize people who clearly are struggling with faith or have no faith. We are all at different points on the walk and I can only work on my own transformation but with mutual community support from family and my monastic family. I was outside the Church for 22 years before reverting. I have the battle scars to prove it.

Two weeks ago I was at the Benedictine Oblates’ World Congress in Rome where I led 4 discussion workshops and heard touching testimony from other oblates about their conversion and transformation process. Some from “nothing” to new or renewed faith, and some who were lukewarm, outwardly pious but inwardly dry, who underwent a profound inner conversion.

I am not sitting in the pew judging and saying “hmm, looks like his or her transformation is incomplete”. I am speaking of very real experiences, as told by others, and an experience that was documented by St. Benedict 1500 years ago. This is not a novel or “new age” concept; it is rooted in the 12 degrees of humility in the Rule, and also the experiences of St. John of the Cross. My wife was with me at the congress and participated in the workshops, and her eyes were opened by what she heard, and she could sense the transformation that many oblates expressed in their mannerisms.

 

[M1Garand]

No it is clearly not.

It has its roots mostly in the St. John of the Cross and the dark night of the soul, and opening up to God’s grace instead of relying on our own attempt to control things including our own sin. It’s a process of maturation of our faith, that often comes after we fall flat on our faces after attempting to overcome sin through pious devotions alone; this falling on our faces can lead to despair, acedia and a loss of hope. A lot of good monastic sources will cover this especially in the context of the 12 degrees of humility in the Rule of St. Benedict.

It also is completely dependent on reception of the sacraments in particular reconciliation and baptism.

I have no knowledge of pentecostal beliefs other than the Catholic interpretation of what happened at Pentecost.

I do have very personal knowledge, however (as does my long-suffering wife) about trying to overcome sin by my own power, including a false notion of what prayer is, such that it is only a coverup of the symptoms rather than letting the perfect medicine-God’s grace-tackle the illness.

Someone who articulates me and my experience exactly. So few people seem to understand this, I guess only experiencing what you outline will lead to an understanding. For me it was a terrible chastisement but thanks be to God for it.

On the topic I have agreed with everything I have heard from Francis so far especially on this issue.

 

[M1Garand]

Getting to the root of the problem only comes after a dark night of the soul and learning to surrender to God’s grace, and put Him in charge of our lives rather than believing we can control everything; it often happens after a major meltdown leading us to fall very hard back into the sin that we thought we “overcame” through prayer. I speak from personal experience here.

Those deep inner wounds of course have their source in original sin, but vary from people to people depending on hour our experiences were coloured and often result from our parents transmitting theirs to us, something scripture teaches us about. In addition to leading us to sin they can also lead us into addiction, and attempts to overcome them by pious devotions only, can often lead to scrupulosity…

 

[PRmerger]

Umm, “other people” include fellow oblates who have said they experienced the same thing.

As for “other people have experienced life-changing conversion”–

As for your discernment of people “going through the motions”–not so much.

That’s not for you to judge, Ora.

As Tim points out the notion of ongoing conversion, and transformation is an integral part of both monastic vows and the oblate’s promise. In fact the formula is exactly the same but one is a vow, the other a promise.

This appears to be a non-sequitur to my post.

 

[PRmerger]

I am not sitting in the pew judging and saying “hmm, looks like his or her transformation is incomplete”.

Then it was unnecessary to point out that there are people who are “going through the motions”.

That there are these types of folks, no one ought to deny.

That we can know who they are, nope.

 

[OraLabora]

Then it was unnecessary to point out that there are people who are “going through the motions”.

That there are these types of folks, no one ought to deny.

That we can know who they are, nope.

I didn’t point out anyone specific.

The ones I talked about are people I have exchanged with who are also oblates and have “been there and done that” and were willing to talk about it and compare experiences.

I don’t see what the problem is with discussing conversion. How can one broach the topic without discussing superficiality as well?

Many of us started out with a superficial faith. In my dark night of the soul I forced myself to go through the motions just so I wouldn’t lose touch with the faith. Many people have been through that experience. As I said, “there but for the grace of God go I”.

 

[OraLabora]

As for “other people have experienced life-changing conversion”–

As for your discernment of people “going through the motions”–not so much.

That’s not for you to judge, Ora.

This appears to be a non-sequitur to my post.

I think I’m going to recuse myself from this discussion. I’m not interested in scoring debating points.

This topic touches me in a very deep manner and brings back memories of a very difficult period in my life; I went through several years of sheer hell where my marriage nearly failed, through my dark night as I plunged deeper in to darkness. I’m not interested in a debate making light of these issues.

Other people have been through the same thing. Amazingly enough we often speak together about our experiences and our period of superficiality. So I know I’m not alone. A couple of oblate friends went through similar trials, and have become very close soul mates.

I attempted to witness, clumsily enough I’ll admit, of my own experiences. But clearly this isn’t the place for that, people seem more interested in winning debates. I will say this I am not attempting to point fingers at anybody, and that I admire the Holy Father and his loving approach, very much.

 

[PRmerger]

I think I’m going to recuse myself from this discussion.

As you wish.

I’m not interested in scoring debating points.

I don’t see how objections to your position that you can tell when someone is “going through the motions” can be seen as “scoring debating points”.

It was simply a discussion.

Too bad that you feel the need to bow out. :sad_yes:

 

[choliks]

On with the regular programming…

Pope: Mary is united to Christ in the ‘martyrdom’ of her heart

*In his weekly general audience, the Pope continued his catechesis on the Church, reflecting today on the importance of Mary as an example of how to respond to God’s plan with fidelity.

“She is also a model of union with Christ, be it in her daily duties, be it in the way of the Cross, until she unites herself with Him in the martyrdom of the heart.”*

 

[janeway529]

What does transformation look like in Sunday Mass?

My comment was largely a critique of those, for example, are highly devoted to Our Lady of Perpetual Help (due to her promise of unfailing help) and believe that going to Mass on Wednesday, which is the day the devotion is celebrated in a particular parish, fulfills their Sunday obligation

In response to your question, I would say that transformation would entail spiritual growth. In my experience, possibly by divine design, the readings, Gospel, and/or homily usually touched on something current in my life or of the times. Add that to being raised in a family which kept traditional pious practices from our ethnic culture and Catholic culture, as well as Catholic school, I steadily moved beyond just learning the Catechism to my current interests in learning theology. For me, transformation isn’t from one single Sunday Mass attendance, but from a continuous variety of sources. I have to admit that the Catholic structure (rules and laws) made it much easier once I understood their ordered role.