P
- Status
P
pocohombre
Guest
Oh ,who can argue with the venerable,likeable Rev,Sheen. He is captivating. But I think there is a difference between saying I love you in a wrote manner however heartfelt, and saying it “often”.For instance how would you like your lover to say i love you 10 times or 50 times per occasion ? Would it be more meaningful than to say several times per occasion ? I rather like the story of where a Catholic says to a Protestant they don’t love Mary enough. The protestant says , “Do you have a fiance, and does he/she have a living mother ?”. "Why yes. ", says the Catholic. The Protestant asks, “Do you have a good relationship with the mother and believe she knows her son well and wishes the best for the both of you ?” “Yes.”, replies the Catholic. "Are you closer to her than your fiance, and is that the best way to get to know him/her thru the mother ? Whom would you prefer to spend more time with, or go to in a time of trouble? Do you go thru the mother to get your fiances attention or have a desire met ? " … I only like that story to show how we can love/appreciate Mary for what she is and not diminish her by loving/appreciating Jesus for His unique superior role by it’s very nature. ,
J
JReducation
Guest
No one denies Jesus’ unique and superior role and natures (human and divine).
The Protestant story does not work here. The context is very different. We have from biblical tradition knowledge that the Queen Mother plays a very special role mediating between the King and his subjects.
There is nothing to keep the subjects from approaching the king directly. But the subjects also know that the king is a faithful son who will deny his mother nothing. We cannot deny the words of John’s Gospel, “Do whatever he tells you.” She points to the king.
Nor can we deny the understanding that the Eastern Fathers had of the role of Mary in revelation and their understanding of the Gospel of Luke.
The mother in the story that you relate is your garden variety mother. The mother of God is not a garden variety mother. The son in the story which you’re relating is in an exclusive relationship with the woman in question. The Son of God is in an exclusive relationship with his people, not with one single person. The analogy falls apart, because the elements are very different, beginning with the nature of the son and mother in the two stories.
Please stop trying to downplay Mary. If you don’t want to accept that tradition without the Immaculate is not Tradition as in revealed tradition, then don’t. But don’t use our space to teach us Protestant theology, which is actually very weak, because Protestants themselves do not have a universal agreement on Mary’s role in salvation history. Fundamentalists blow her off while Anglicans subscribe to the same beliefs as Catholics and Orthodox.
Before a Protestant tries to teach a Catholic or an Orthodox about Mary’s place in salvation history and sacred tradition, it is imperative that Protestants come to an agreement on her role. There is no such agreement among Protestants. Therefore, none of the Protestant positions are reliable, because they don’t agree with each other. Whom do we believe, a Baptist? a Lutheran? an Anglican? a Presbyterian?
Whereas you have 23 sui iuris Churches that make up the one Catholic Church and 22 sui iuris churches that make up the one Orthodox Church and all 45 agree on Mary’s role as the Theotokos and the mediatrix that leads men to Christ.
We may disagree on the form of the mass, but we do not disagree on this point. There are more than one billion Catholics and Orthodox in full agreement on this point. The several million Protestants are still discerning. So there is not yet an official Protestant position. The position that you’re posting here is your own, not that of the Protestant community.
T
Thomas_Casey
Guest
MODERATOR NOTICE
TC Forum is for the discussion of Catholic traditions and customs, these include Catholic dogmas, history, laws and disciplines. It is not the proper forum for a Catholic-Protestant dialogue on the Blessed Mother.
Protestants are welcome on TC Forum. However, while they are guests on this forum they must understand that this is not the place to try to persuade Catholics to look at their customs and traditions differently. That type of discussion belongs in Non Catholic Religions or Apologetics.
Any Protestant on this forum is welcome to ask questions that do not have the intent to proselytize or contradict Catholic dogma. You must submit to Catholic dogma to be on this forum. This is not negotiable. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, feel free to send me a PM. Do not post a message for me on the thread. I may not see it in a timely fashion.
TC Forum is for the discussion of Catholic traditions and customs, these include Catholic dogmas, history, laws and disciplines. It is not the proper forum for a Catholic-Protestant dialogue on the Blessed Mother.
Protestants are welcome on TC Forum. However, while they are guests on this forum they must understand that this is not the place to try to persuade Catholics to look at their customs and traditions differently. That type of discussion belongs in Non Catholic Religions or Apologetics.
Any Protestant on this forum is welcome to ask questions that do not have the intent to proselytize or contradict Catholic dogma. You must submit to Catholic dogma to be on this forum. This is not negotiable. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, feel free to send me a PM. Do not post a message for me on the thread. I may not see it in a timely fashion.
J
JReducation
Guest
Sorry 
M
Megan7
Guest
K
kmcarl56
Guest
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, AMEN!
H
hazcompat
Guest
Brother JReducation, I don’t think you need to apologize.
From St. Louis De Montfort
THE SECRET OF MARY
…
Mary is called by St Augustine, and is indeed, the “living mould of God”. In her alone the
God-man was formed in his human nature without losing any feature of the Godhead. In her alone, by the grace of Jesus Christ, man is made godlike as far as human nature is capable of it.
…There is not and there will never be, either in God’s creation or in his mind, a creature in whom he is so honoured as in the most Blessed Virgin Mary, not excepting even the saints, the cherubim or the highest seraphim in heaven.
Mary is God’s garden of Paradise, his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things, to tend it and to take his delight in it. He created a world for the wayfarer, that is, the one we are living in. He created a second world - Paradise - for the Blessed. He created a third for himself, which he named Mary.
She is a world unknown to most mortals here on earth. Even the angels and saints in heaven find her incomprehensible, and are lost in admiration of a God who is so exalted and so far above them, so distant from them, and so enclosed in Mary, his chosen world, that they exclaim: “Holy, holy, holy” unceasingly. Happy, indeed sublimely happy, is the person to whom the Holy Spirit reveals the secret of Mary,…
Peace
From St. Louis De Montfort
THE SECRET OF MARY
…
Mary is called by St Augustine, and is indeed, the “living mould of God”. In her alone the
God-man was formed in his human nature without losing any feature of the Godhead. In her alone, by the grace of Jesus Christ, man is made godlike as far as human nature is capable of it.
…There is not and there will never be, either in God’s creation or in his mind, a creature in whom he is so honoured as in the most Blessed Virgin Mary, not excepting even the saints, the cherubim or the highest seraphim in heaven.
Mary is God’s garden of Paradise, his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things, to tend it and to take his delight in it. He created a world for the wayfarer, that is, the one we are living in. He created a second world - Paradise - for the Blessed. He created a third for himself, which he named Mary.
She is a world unknown to most mortals here on earth. Even the angels and saints in heaven find her incomprehensible, and are lost in admiration of a God who is so exalted and so far above them, so distant from them, and so enclosed in Mary, his chosen world, that they exclaim: “Holy, holy, holy” unceasingly. Happy, indeed sublimely happy, is the person to whom the Holy Spirit reveals the secret of Mary,…
Peace
J
JReducation
Guest
Thank you for this. I just picked up his book again. I’m reading it for the second time. It’s been about 20 years since I read it. I figured it was time to do so again. Since I could get it for free on Kindle, why not?
G
godisgood77
Guest
This is a nice sentiment. However, it is too extreme to say that those who do not hold a personal devotion to Mary aren’t following tradition. Not sure if you mean to imply that they such practice would be less Catholic, but I would say that that is mistaken, too. Those with a Christo-centric approach to their faith can be and are both traditional and Catholic.
In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Dan
In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Dan
T
TimothyH
Guest
The comparison of the fiance and his mother to Jesus and Mary is an apples to oranges comparison. The mother of the fiance is not the Queen Mother as was common in the monarchies of the Old Testament, nor is the fiance the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate.
The mother of the king was always a queen who literally sat on a throne and wore a crown with her son. Her title in Hebrew was Gebirah which means Grand Lady. Part of her role was to bring requests from the common man before the king and to obtain favors from king on behalf of the common man. These are matters of historical fact and not debatable.
The comparison doesn’t make sense because it fails to take into account the relationship of mother and son who are also king and queen.
-Tim-
T
TimothyH
Guest
Other than the Eucharist, nothing is more traditional than devotion to the Blessed Mother.
It is at the foundation of our faith and goes back to the early Church, back to when Jesus gave Mary to the disciple whom he loved while on the cross, back to veneration of the mother of the king in the Old Testament, and all the way to Eve in the first chapter of Genesis.
65 years ago, Jesus without Mary was unheard of.
-Tim-
G
godisgood77
Guest
Not sure I’m getting your point… I don’t disagree with what you stated in your second paragraph. That doesn’t change the fact that a personal devotion to Mary doesn’t make one more or less traditional or Catholic.
I disagree with your last point. There has always been those with a Christo-centric faith and those in the Church that do not have particularly zealous personal devotions to Mary or particular saints.
J
JReducation
Guest
Do not confuse private devotion to Mary with acknowledgement of Mary’s place in Catholic tradition. They are different.
Mary is essential to Christian tradition. We get this from the Eastern Fathers. Since the time of the Fathers there was always a devotion to the Theotokos. In the East, you would never see an incon of the Pantocrator and not one of the Theotokos. The reason being that the Church as a body venerated Mary as Model of the Church.
In the West the Immaculate Conception was celebrated on December 8th as early as the 5th century, even though it was not well developed or understood until the 14th century when John Duns Scotus clarified it. As we know in the 19th century it was declared an essential dogma and in the 20th century the Assumption was declared an essential dogma.
Neither the East nor the West can have a licit canon of the mass or anafora without mentioning Mary. It may be valid, but illicit.
Every Catholic is bound, under pain of mortal sin, to venerate Mary on her Solemnities.
She’s not just a devotion in Catholicism or Orthodoxy either.
If you mean private devotion such as novenas, rosary and special prayers, those are not required of anyone. But liturgical veneration and doctrinal recognition is required and commanded by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
G
godisgood77
Guest
Thanks Brother.
I’ll clarify my point as haven’t clearly stated what I mean. I’m not challenging Church teaching, tradition or laws. I’m simply stating that it is not necessary to place all of our trust in Mary or rely on her guidance - which I believe was the original thought in this thread (which in said was a nice sentiment). That’s not to say that folks who share that personal devotion are wrong. Quite the contrary. I’m only stating that some very devout Catholics of the utmost orthodoxy do not share that devotion and that doesn’t make them less traditional or less Catholic.
J
JReducation
Guest
I agree. What these folks don’t realize is that Mary is the one who is guiding their spiritual life. Whether one consciously relies on Mary’s guidance or not, the fact is that the Masters of Catholic Spirituality have proven to us that Mary is the one who guides our spiritual life and that the only reason that we can recognize Christ is because Mary shows him to us.
I think that St. Maximilian Kolbe said it best. That was his doctoral dissertation. It’s a great read, if you want to read 1,000 pages on this subject, in Polish. I’ll stick to excerpts. LOL “You cannot separate the Created Immaculate Conception from the Eternal Immaculate Conception.”
The absence of Marian devotions and Christian Spirituality without Mary are not the same thing. There is no such thing as Christian Spirituality that is not guided and guarded by Mary. There is no such thing as Marian Spirituality that does not point to Christ.
G
godisgood77
Guest
Thanks again Brother.
I’d love some reading recommendations. I’ve read some Kolbe and de Monfort. Are there others that you can recommend? Any Church documents?I haven’t gotten what say above…it sounds kind of like Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces which is not a Church doctrine.
Genuinely interested…
G
godisgood77
Guest
Simon who helped carry the cross? The thief on the cross next to Jesus? The disciple whom Jesus loved most? The gender argument is silly…
H
hazcompat
Guest
St. Lawrence of Brindisi
MARIALE
When St. John, the Apostle and Evangelist, the beloved disciple of Christ and after the Most Holy Virgin Theotokos, the singular son of the Cross of Christ, having been relegated to the island of Patmos, suffered many things for the Faith of Christ, he was consoled in the same place by God with many celestial and divine revelations. For, as that (Apostle) says: As there has abounded in us the sufferings of Christ, so also through Christ abound our consolations: for: According to the number of my sorrows in my heart, Thy consolations have made my soul rejoice.
With singular effort St. John, who had rested upon the breast of the Lord during the Last supper, and had chosen the best part, as Mary had done , which would not be taken from him, had always been intent, after the Ascension of Christ the Lord into Heaven, upon divine contemplations, but in the time of tribulation he used to employ himself more vehemently with divine things; for this was the custom of the Saints. Wherefore, since St. John at that time enkindled by a more ardent flame, was rapt unto God, and driven above by certain, seraphic ardors, he began also to be overflowed more abundantly that usual and much more copiously with the sweetness of divine contemplation, and to feel more accumulatively the gifts of heavenly emissions
Wherefore, just as God the Father of mercies, and the God of all consolation, who consoles us in our every tribulation6 had consoled him, just as once He did to Jacob, the Patriarch, with the vision of the heavenly Staircase, to Moses with the divine apparition in the burning bush, to the three youths in the ardent furnace with angelic consolation and heavenly refreshment, and just as He did to St. Paul, for the sake of consolation, He snatched up to the third heaven, unto Paradise itself, in an ineffable manner with the vision of celestial glory; so had He consoled St. John in many ways. Often, with Heaven unbolted, He showed him, just as(He had done to St. Stephen, the glory of Paradise, the glory of Christ, the glory of God. Often He rendered him glad with the vision and locution of the Angels, and steeped him in great joy. Often from the sublimityof the heavens, the most sweet Savior appeared to him. Often he was deigned even with the vision of the glory of the Father. O happy St. John, thrice and four times blessed, with the gift of divine charity! Because JesuOne thing could have been lacking to St. John. He loved above all things Christ, with all his affection, truly from his spirit, with his whole inmost being , the most loving
One thing could have been lacking to (St.) John. He loved [Diligebat] above all things Christ, with all his affection, truly from his spirit, with his whole inmost being [praecordiis], just the most loving [amantissimum] Groom (is loved by His) most beloved [dilectissima] Bride. On this account, he was steeped in such great joy by the vision of Christ. But who does not know, that he was also devoted to the Virgin Theotokos, the Most Holy Mother of God, with a most high piety, that he pursued Her with a most high charity as one does a most sweet and loving mother? For he knew that he was loved similarly by Her as Her dearest son after Christ. For even to His Mother Christ had said of (St.) John: Behold Thy son!, and to (St.) John of His Mother: Behold thy Mother! and he accepted, he said, Her, the disciple into his own [in sua]:13 (that is) he accepted (Her) among his own
Saint Lawerence of Brindi
MARIALE
When St. John, the Apostle and Evangelist, the beloved disciple of Christ and after the Most Holy Virgin Theotokos, the singular son of the Cross of Christ, having been relegated to the island of Patmos, suffered many things for the Faith of Christ, he was consoled in the same place by God with many celestial and divine revelations. For, as that (Apostle) says: As there has abounded in us the sufferings of Christ, so also through Christ abound our consolations: for: According to the number of my sorrows in my heart, Thy consolations have made my soul rejoice.
With singular effort St. John, who had rested upon the breast of the Lord during the Last supper, and had chosen the best part, as Mary had done , which would not be taken from him, had always been intent, after the Ascension of Christ the Lord into Heaven, upon divine contemplations, but in the time of tribulation he used to employ himself more vehemently with divine things; for this was the custom of the Saints. Wherefore, since St. John at that time enkindled by a more ardent flame, was rapt unto God, and driven above by certain, seraphic ardors, he began also to be overflowed more abundantly that usual and much more copiously with the sweetness of divine contemplation, and to feel more accumulatively the gifts of heavenly emissions
Wherefore, just as God the Father of mercies, and the God of all consolation, who consoles us in our every tribulation6 had consoled him, just as once He did to Jacob, the Patriarch, with the vision of the heavenly Staircase, to Moses with the divine apparition in the burning bush, to the three youths in the ardent furnace with angelic consolation and heavenly refreshment, and just as He did to St. Paul, for the sake of consolation, He snatched up to the third heaven, unto Paradise itself, in an ineffable manner with the vision of celestial glory; so had He consoled St. John in many ways. Often, with Heaven unbolted, He showed him, just as(He had done to St. Stephen, the glory of Paradise, the glory of Christ, the glory of God. Often He rendered him glad with the vision and locution of the Angels, and steeped him in great joy. Often from the sublimityof the heavens, the most sweet Savior appeared to him. Often he was deigned even with the vision of the glory of the Father. O happy St. John, thrice and four times blessed, with the gift of divine charity! Because JesuOne thing could have been lacking to St. John. He loved above all things Christ, with all his affection, truly from his spirit, with his whole inmost being , the most loving
One thing could have been lacking to (St.) John. He loved [Diligebat] above all things Christ, with all his affection, truly from his spirit, with his whole inmost being [praecordiis], just the most loving [amantissimum] Groom (is loved by His) most beloved [dilectissima] Bride. On this account, he was steeped in such great joy by the vision of Christ. But who does not know, that he was also devoted to the Virgin Theotokos, the Most Holy Mother of God, with a most high piety, that he pursued Her with a most high charity as one does a most sweet and loving mother? For he knew that he was loved similarly by Her as Her dearest son after Christ. For even to His Mother Christ had said of (St.) John: Behold Thy son!, and to (St.) John of His Mother: Behold thy Mother! and he accepted, he said, Her, the disciple into his own [in sua]:13 (that is) he accepted (Her) among his own
Saint Lawerence of Brindi
- Status