J
JReducation
Guest
Good Franciscan Doctor of the Church. I have the privilege of working side by side with one of his great great nephews. A very wise, intelligent and holy man.
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Good Franciscan Doctor of the Church. I have the privilege of working side by side with one of his great great nephews. A very wise, intelligent and holy man.
P
Protestor
Guest
This is something I never fully grasped about your religion. Why should I rest in her lap or however you put it? When I can rest in christ. Who knows Christ better then himself? I do not understand what an intermediary can do that Jesus can’t or why it would advantageous to use one? I get that you guys and ladies pray with the saints and that it is sorta like having asking a friend to pray to the Lord for you.
You do not have to answer all these questions one or two might have been rhetorical. answer underlined please
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You do not have to answer all these questions one or two might have been rhetorical. answer underlined please
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D
Denise1957
Guest
I sympathize with your question. When I was still a Protestant, but had just started attending a Catholic Mass, I was annoyed that the Hail Mary was prayed after Mass. But then one day I found myself in a frightening situation, so I prayed the Our Father (Lord’s Prayer) and what I could remember of the Hail Mary that was prayed after Mass. And what I felt was calmness and a great peace that is indescribable. This is just a personal experience, and therefore subjective. Of course we can rest in Christ, but we can also appeal to a mother’s love, who sees things as only a mother can, and who can then appeal to her son on our behalf.
She can intercede because of her role in bringing God into the world. She is singularly blessed with grace, as no other human has ever been. I’ve probably not explained it very well. Others here can probably explain it better.
T
TimothyH
Guest
In general terms, Mary is part of God’s plan. God’s plan is the most beautiful and perfect plan because if there were a better plan then He would have given it to us. No parts of God’s plan for us are optional and Mary is part of that plan.
Much of this has been answered in the previous posts.
You are not using Mary as an intermediary but giving her the veneration and honor that is hers by right and accepting her God-given role in our salvation. Mary is not an intermediary but is the Mother of the incarnate Second Person of the Trinity and the Queen of Heaven and Earth.
Mary was the means God chose to enter creation. The Queens in the Old Testament were intercessors on behalf of the common people. None of this has changed. Mary shows us Jesus and intercedes for us. This is not “using an intercessor” but humbly accepting that it is part of God’s plan for our salvation and that God has given Mary this role.
When you rest in Christ, it is Mary who brought you there, whether you know it or not.
-Tim-
H
hazcompat
Guest
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I do not know your place in the order of grace. I know some apostles asked to sit on His right and on His left. I know there are twenty four thrones and all who sit on them will cast aside their crowns and worship the ever living almighty God. There are principalities, powers, thrones, dominions…and I am a worm. The Queen stands at His right hand arrayed in gold. Who ever exalts himself will be humbled.
Peace
G
godisgood77
Guest
This is your belief, correct? The Church does not teach that when you go to Christ or The Father, that It is Mary who got you there. Jesus certainly didn’t teach that. I don’t mean to offend… I am Catholic and the belief you are putting forward is foreign to me.
Can you reference any Church teaching to support your belief?
J
JReducation
Guest
This has actually been taught and accepted unchallenged by the Magisterium. The Magisterium would never approve a writing for a doctor of the Church, if that writing contains something that the Church does not believe.
You can find this teaching in the writings of:
St. Bernard of Clairvaux
St. Francis of Assisi
St. Bonaventure
St. Thomas Aquinas
Bl. John Duns Scotus
St. Teresa of Avila
St. John of Avila
St. Lawrence of Brindisi
St. Therese of Lisieux
St. Louis de Montfort
St. Maximilian Kolbe
Bl. John Paul II
Bl. Teresa of Calcutta
All of them agree that whether you know it or not, you reach Christ because Mary takes you there. Christ did not have to say this in scripture. It was revealed to us in action.
We see him breaking into human history through Mary
We see Mary presenting him to the Jews 40 days after his birth.
We see Mary presenting him to the Gentiles when he is about age 2.
We see Mary bring him into the public arena at the wedding in Cana.
We see Mary pointing to him at the same wedding
We see him placing humanity under her protection at the foot of the cross.
What have to do is take what we see, look to Sacred Tradition found in the Fathers of the Church and those documents that the Magisterium accepts as faithful to the Truth. When we do, we find that these actions in scripture are understood to mean that Mary leads all men to Christ and that no one can reach Christ without her intercession. Whether they ask for it or not. She always intercedes. Just as the wedding party does not ask for her help. But she intercedes. Humanity does not ask for a mother, but she accepts humanity as her children. It’s not about your will or my will. It’s about God’s will.
It is God’s will that we reach Christ only through Mary. St. Maximilian Kolbe clarified this in his writings, which were approved as theologically correct in order to canonize him. There were some who challenged this. Bl. John Paul read them and said that they are doctrinally correct. Popes don’t err in matters of faith, even when they speak through the ordinary magisterium. You may want to read a book called, Forget Not Love. If you have not already done so, read Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. Both he and Maximilian are the best theologians on this matter.
The Church approves the writings of both for public use and for teaching in the seminaries of secular priests and scholasticates of religious orders.
J
JReducation
Guest
G
godisgood77
Guest
Thanks for the response Brother…
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Going to Christ through Mary is one route… not the only route. This belief in no way diminishes Mary’s role in salvation history.
What you are talking about really sounds like Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces which, as I mentioned previously, is not a teaching of the Church. Many hold that belief, though certainly not a majority. This piece of Marian devotion really falls in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be “Mediatrix of All Graces”, but is does not teach this today. The theological debate is far from over on this on topic and I think it is dangerous for you to declare it as a solemnly declared belief of the Catholic Church.
‘To Jesus only through Mary’ is not referenced in any of the iterations of the Catholic Catechism. Aside from this teaching being absent from the Catechism, the idea of ‘to Jesus only through Mary’ is absent from Lumen Gentium’s chapter on Mary. As an Apostolic Constitution, Lumen Gentium carries the highest weight of any Church teaching.
I have read much on this topic and will be happy to share more deeply. I’m also familiar with Marian devotion and teaching in the time of our Church Fathers and the first 500-600 years, so I think we can engage in discourse over that as well.
In Christ Jesus…
Dan
G
godisgood77
Guest
Regardless, these examples do not mean that you can only get to Jesus through Mary. We have many, many examples of people encountering Jesus directly. These are littered throughout the gospels… the apostles, the many people that He healed, etc, etc.
Mary is one way to Jesus and it’s a sure way. Not the only way…
T
TimothyH
Guest
It is not about having a choice but about accepting God’s plan. God’s plan is that you get to Christ through Mary and that happens whether we know it or acknowledge it. That this happens is part of Sacred Tradition because it is revealed truth.
Mary takes you to Christ. That is what is happening today, right now, this second. Why not accept it as revealed truth, part of a beautiful and perfect plan for our salvation given to us by a perfectly loving Father? Why not be happy about it? If God had a more beautiful plan for us, he would have given it to us. If God had a more perfect plan, he would have given it to us.
There aren’t two different plans but one plan. It is about embracing the beauty and perfection of His divine plan.
-Tim-
T
TimothyH
Guest
"I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes."
- Edward Everett speaking to Abraham Lincoln on the occasion of his two-hour oration just prior to Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.
-Tim-
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godisgood77
Guest
Thanks Tim. I appreciate the response and respect your personal devotion. Please don’t put your beliefs forward as if they are universal Church teaching.
M
McCall1981
Guest
So, in a more practical sense, what does it mean to do these things? How does one go about doing these things?
T
TimothyH
Guest
Dan, I’m sorry to speak to you bluntly but the fact is that this is not a matter of my personal devotion but rather authentic universal Church teaching about a point of doctrine based on revealed truth. These are not my beliefs but the teaching of many Doctors of the Church.
You seem to have already made up your mind and don’t seem to be open to new information and so I will not argue further.
I’m sorry if I have upset your peace.
-Tim-
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godisgood77
Guest
No problem Tim. I appreciate the debate as it helps me and others come to a fuller understanding of the truth. That’s why we spend time on these discussion boards
I would love to have a reference to Church teaching that declares that we can only get to Christ through Mary. If you look back at my posts, I believe I’ve expressed an openness . I hope my questions and statements are received that way. I have put forward some specific points based on Lumen Gentium and the Catechism, but am very open to references to Church doctrine on the subject if anyone has it. Please accept my apologies if I came across as anything other than curious, as that was my intention.
You have not disrupted my peace. I’m sorry if I have yours.
Pax, Dan
J
JReducation
Guest
This is not the same point as Mary Mediatrix of all Graces. You need to read the doctors and see what they’re saying. Yes, the Church does accept what they say about Mary being the way to Christ. We’re not speaking here about the 35 years that Christ was on earth. We’re speaking about all eternity. The Trinity and Mary exist outside of time and space.
G
godisgood77
Guest
Ok. Thank-you Brother.
I will continue to search for a solemn declaration from the Church on the subject. Appreciate the responses.
J
JReducation
Guest
Mcall et al
I strongly believe that the first step is prayer. We must engage in real dialogue with Our Lady. For some people that may not be an easy thing. When I do spiritual direction, I often suggest that people begin with something that’s simple for them, such as a Hail Mary at a certain time of day or the Angelus at noon or the Rosary. These do not require mental prayer.
Whichever we do, a daily Hail Mary or a daily hour of mental prayer, we put before Our Lady both the good and the bad. For example, I speak to her about my sins, my pains (people), my other pains (body aches), the good things and blessings in my life, the things that are going on in the world, the people who have asked me to pray for them and so forth. I even speak to her about my pets. Right now we rescued a Puggle and I’m trying to train her. She has no manners and she tries my patience. I ask Our Lady to help me have some discipline and self control. I figure that if Our Lady gives me some patience in this situation, I can transfer it to more serious situations. There is not a single opportunity in life that has to be lost. It can all be brought to Our Lady in prayer.
I think about her a great deal. For example, today I was on my way to meet an expectant dad. He has some serious disabilities that keep him from attending our Project Joseph sessions. Since I too have serious health issues that keep me from going out to Project Joseph every day, as I would like to do, I volunteered to go see this daddy.
On my way there, I don’t remember what happened, but something brought St. Max to mind. You can’t think about St. Max without thinking about the Immaculate. They belong in the same sentence. That reminded me that we have a CD with Marian songs and it’s in the car. So I put in the CD. As the songs went on and on, Immaculate Mary, the version from Lourdes, got stuck in my mind. You know how a song just keeps looping around inside your head?
Instead of fighting it off, I let it go on and followed the thought. It led me to think and wonder about Our Lady. I’m wondering, “What’s she like? What did she look like when she was on earth? Did she look like my mom?” My mom was Jewish.
Then I remembered something that St. Francis taught us about Mary. Something that he commanded that we believe. She is “the virgin made Church”. It’s a whole ecclesiology that no one ever considered and is still not very popular. But my mind began to dwell on that for a while and to turn that around in my mind, wondering “How is this possible? What does Francis mean by this? I know that I have to believe it under pain of grave sin, because Francis commanded it under holy obedience, but I don’t really understand what he means.”
Another concrete action in my own life is iconography. I have several images of Mary. I’m not a big statue person, because I hate dusting. I rather have pictures and icons. You don’t have to dust, lift, move or worry about them breaking. Just take the duster and give them a touch up. So the other brother and I who live in this house have several pictures and two beautiful icons of Our Lady. It’s a small house, so they’re very visible. But you can’t go into a room in this little house without seeing her and knowing that she’s not very far from you.
Of course there is reading. As I said above, I like to read the doctors and what they have said about Mary. k The doctors are safer than any theologian, because the writings of the doctors have been examined under the microscope by the Church. The writings of the saints and blesseds as well, even if they are not doctors. The Congregation for the Causes of the Saints goes over the with a fine tooth comb. That’s why I trust that she is the only way to Jesus. They have told us this many times and the Holy See has always given those writings a passing grade. In fact, they are used to prove the holiness of the person in question. So the doctors, because they are authorized teachers and the saints, because their writings have received a passing mark. Those are safe bets when you want to know about Mary.
I could go on, but I’m out of space.
M
McCall1981
Guest
Thanks very muchMcall et al
I strongly believe that the first step is prayer. We must engage in real dialogue with Our Lady. For some people that may not be an easy thing. When I do spiritual direction, I often suggest that people begin with something that’s simple for them, such as a Hail Mary at a certain time of day or the Angelus at noon or the Rosary. These do not require mental prayer.
Whichever we do, a daily Hail Mary or a daily hour of mental prayer, we put before Our Lady both the good and the bad. For example, I speak to her about my sins, my pains (people), my other pains (body aches), the good things and blessings in my life, the things that are going on in the world, the people who have asked me to pray for them and so forth. I even speak to her about my pets. Right now we rescued a Puggle and I’m trying to train her. She has no manners and she tries my patience. I ask Our Lady to help me have some discipline and self control. I figure that if Our Lady gives me some patience in this situation, I can transfer it to more serious situations. There is not a single opportunity in life that has to be lost. It can all be brought to Our Lady in prayer.
I think about her a great deal. For example, today I was on my way to meet an expectant dad. He has some serious disabilities that keep him from attending our Project Joseph sessions. Since I too have serious health issues that keep me from going out to Project Joseph every day, as I would like to do, I volunteered to go see this daddy.
On my way there, I don’t remember what happened, but something brought St. Max to mind. You can’t think about St. Max without thinking about the Immaculate. They belong in the same sentence. That reminded me that we have a CD with Marian songs and it’s in the car. So I put in the CD. As the songs went on and on, Immaculate Mary, the version from Lourdes, got stuck in my mind. You know how a song just keeps looping around inside your head?
Instead of fighting it off, I let it go on and followed the thought. It led me to think and wonder about Our Lady. I’m wondering, “What’s she like? What did she look like when she was on earth? Did she look like my mom?” My mom was Jewish.
Then I remembered something that St. Francis taught us about Mary. Something that he commanded that we believe. She is “the virgin made Church”. It’s a whole ecclesiology that no one ever considered and is still not very popular. But my mind began to dwell on that for a while and to turn that around in my mind, wondering “How is this possible? What does Francis mean by this? I know that I have to believe it under pain of grave sin, because Francis commanded it under holy obedience, but I don’t really understand what he means.”
Another concrete action in my own life is iconography. I have several images of Mary. I’m not a big statue person, because I hate dusting. I rather have pictures and icons. You don’t have to dust, lift, move or worry about them breaking. Just take the duster and give them a touch up. So the other brother and I who live in this house have several pictures and two beautiful icons of Our Lady. It’s a small house, so they’re very visible. But you can’t go into a room in this little house without seeing her and knowing that she’s not very far from you.
Of course there is reading. As I said above, I like to read the doctors and what they have said about Mary. k The doctors are safer than any theologian, because the writings of the doctors have been examined under the microscope by the Church. The writings of the saints and blesseds as well, even if they are not doctors. The Congregation for the Causes of the Saints goes over the with a fine tooth comb. That’s why I trust that she is the only way to Jesus. They have told us this many times and the Holy See has always given those writings a passing grade. In fact, they are used to prove the holiness of the person in question. So the doctors, because they are authorized teachers and the saints, because their writings have received a passing mark. Those are safe bets when you want to know about Mary.
I could go on, but I’m out of space.
- Status