J
JReducation
Guest
De nadaThanks very much
- Status
H
hazcompat
Guest
Immaculate Mary, thy praises we sing;
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
In heaven, the blessed thy glory proclaim;
On earth we, thy children, invoke thy fair name.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for God’s glory; may His kingdom come;
We pray for His vicar, our father, and Rome.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for our Mother, the Church upon earth,
And bless, dearest Lady, the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
Amen
Peace
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
In heaven, the blessed thy glory proclaim;
On earth we, thy children, invoke thy fair name.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for God’s glory; may His kingdom come;
We pray for His vicar, our father, and Rome.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for our Mother, the Church upon earth,
And bless, dearest Lady, the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
Amen
Peace
C
clem456
Guest
Let me work this through in my mind (call me Thomas with a science degree, it’s gotta make sense)
God is omniscient, he knows all things at all times and hears all things at all times, can hear and answer the prayers of all people at once, mysteriously, because he is God and he can do that through his mighty power.
Mary is sinless, the first disciple, Mother of the Church, Mother of God, best model of our faith. Worthy of our devotion and pleading for our salvation with her son. She is in heaven with her glorified body sitting at Jesus’s side.
But Mary is a creature like us in that regard. Since she is not God and is not omniscient, how can the prayers of billions of people be handled by her?
I don’t see how it is possible to go this extra step to say that -all- access to Jesus goes through Mary. And I can’t see how this would detract one bit from who she is, to accept that she is not omniscient.
I’m sorry for such a pedestrian question, but it is a question of the nature of God and the nature of humanity for me.
J
JReducation
Guest
I found where your confusion comes. When we take on our glorified bodies, which Mary has, we reach the fullness of what God has prepared for us and all things become known to us. In other words, we share in God’s life, including his knowledge. She is no longer limited by human conditions of any kind.
We can see how she is no longer like us. Look at the apparitions. She appears and disappears at will. She allows herself to be seen by the children at Fatima and by Bernadette, but not by the crowd. She appears as a European woman at Fatima and Lourdes, as an Aztec Princess in Mexico, as an Asian Princess in Asia. In other words, not only does she appear and disappear, she can change her appearance and even hide it from some and not from others. These are attributes that God shares with her.
In other words, she shares in the life of God and by sharing in his life, she also shares in his attributes. Jesus walked through walls and ate. He walked with his friends on the way to Emmaus and hid his identity from them. They never recognized him. Paul saw him, but did not see him. He did not recognize him until he spoke to Paul. Mary, because like her son, lives in her glorified body is no longer limited by the human condition, this includes limited knowledge. She no longer has limited knowledge, nor is she limited to be present in only one place. She is literally present everywhere, just as Jesus, who is also human and has a glorified body can be present everywhere. So shall we all when we are united to our glorified bodies.
The answer lies in the nature of the glorified body vs the nature of the mortal body. The glorified body is not limited by human nature. Therefore, it’s not limited by human attributes either. God shares everything he is, knows and does with those whom he draws to himself. This is the faith of the Church, hence the doctrine of the Assumption.
You were probably thinking that when Mary was assumed, she remained as she was here on earth. This would logically raise the questions that you have.
Think about it. She lives forever, appears and disappears, changes her appearance. Makes herself visible to those who she pleases even in a crowd. She foresees the future. She sees into the hearts of men. She even makes promises.
Bernadette asked her to certain graces. Mary responded, “I cannot make you happy in this life, but only in the next.” Mary speaks in the first person. Why? Is Mary going to give Bernadette the supernatural attributes of the saints? No. But Mary will lead Bernadette to him who can do so, that is her son.
A
asd72
Guest
This is what I don’t get. Is it not God who gives these things? Do you not mean you ask Mary to intercede with Jesus for these graces. The way it is described as asking Mary, without reference to Jesus I find difficult. It makes it sound like these graces are sourced in Mary herself.
J
JReducation
Guest
Remember what the angel said to Mary. “Hail full of grace.”
In Jewish culture to say that someone is "full of grace " is heresy. Grace is understood to be the life of God. In effect, Luke is telling us that even the angels acknowledge that Mary is filled with God’s life. This includes the powers that come with that life. The power is from God, but it is in her hands to use it.
Remember what Elizabeth says to her. “Who am I that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me.”
This is very important wording. Elizabeth is using Lord to mean Adonai. Adonai is the Divine King, hence the title Lord. Elizabeth is then astonished that the Queen Mother has come to her. The Queen Mother is not just another citizen. She has great power given to her by her son. This is part of Jewish tradition and it foreshadowed what was to come.
He also believe that Jesus is the new Adam and that Mary is the new Eve. That’s a longer explanation. But if we look at Genesis, Eve was to share in the life that the God had given to Adam. That’s why she is made out of one of his ribs. That’s the symbolism behind the rib. Mary shares in the life of her son.
If we put together that even the angels acknowledge that she is filled with the life of God, that she is the Queen Mother and that the King shares his life and power with the Queen, then we can understand how she can do what she does. She can do so, because it is her Son’s will that she draw from his power for the welfare of mankind.
Like any good king, this one also gives to the Queen Mother full access to his grace for her to use for the good of his subjects.
C
clem456
Guest
Wow.
thanks for that Brother.
That whole world you describe is such good news for us it’s hard to comprehend.
Will pray about that.
thanks for that Brother.
That whole world you describe is such good news for us it’s hard to comprehend.
Will pray about that.
J
JReducation
Guest
There are three disciplines at work at the same time: Sacred Scripture, metaphysics and eschatology. When it comes to the three, I’m like a parrot. I can put together what I’ve been taught and spit it out. But I’m not an expert. My area of expertise is Spiritual Theology. You ask me about prayer, the soul, grace, the four last things, any of the Spiritual Masters and I can talk your ear off, even in my sleep.
This other stuff is part of the core curriculum that we had to take in the seminary. Some people go out and get advanced degrees in this stuff, PhDs or STDs.
5
57Bill
Guest
I kinda think BVM is greater in heaven than we can imagine. She’s the perfect, loving, superhighway to Christ.
J
JReducation
Guest
“superhighway” is an interesting term. I don’t think the Vatican will adopt that one.
C
Classicist
Guest
How about… Her Son?
I wish people would take time out of their day to lay aside frustration and anger to place themselves in the hands of Christ.
During the Old Times, we said God is too holy for us to approach. The Son became incarnate, that we might approach God through, with, and in Him. Now, we say that the Son is too holy for us to approach, so we go to the Mother of the Son of the Father. Soon, I fear, we will say that Mary is too pure, and we are too wretched, and we will need intercessors to intercede with the mediatrix to advocate for us to the Savior.
How I miss Anglicanism sometimes…
… but at least now, in Traditionalism, we can understand the mindset of Mariacentrism in the late Middle Ages that led many of the younger “reformers” to teach the errors that they did. History is a mysterious thing…
J
JReducation
Guest
It sounds like you have misunderstood Catholicism. I don’t know about missing Anglicanism.How about… Her Son?
I wish people would take time out of their day to lay aside frustration and anger to place themselves in the hands of Christ.
During the Old Times, we said God is too holy for us to approach. The Son became incarnate, that we might approach God through, with, and in Him. Now, we say that the Son is too holy for us to approach, so we go to the Mother of the Son of the Father. Soon, I fear, we will say Mary is too pure, and we are too wretched, and we will need intercessors to intercede with the mediatrix of the savior.
How I miss Anglicanism sometimes…
Can you think of anything more Christocentric than the two forms of public prayer of the Church: the mass and the Liturgy of the Hours?
Have you read either Louis de Montfort or Maximilian Kolbe? You may come to a better understanding of the relationship between the mother, the son and us and how they cannot be separate.
C
Classicist
Guest
The Liturgy of the Hours and the Mass are my daily sustenance, Brother. Nothing could be more Christocentric, indeed. I rejoice in these, and thank God for them.
What I do not always find myself thanking God for is the excessive piety and devotion shown to the Immaculate Virgin by some Catholics. This is beyond dogma; it is merely an observation of the practices of my fellows.
I have misunderstood many things in life, but it is impossible to misunderstand this request: “place our frustrations, suspicions, fears, and anger in the hands of the Immaculate”. I would place all my frustrations, suspicions, fears, and anger into the hands of the Lord, who freely invites us to His Banquet. When we already have the Light, the Bread of Life, the Door, the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Good Shepherd, and the True Vine, why should we think ourselves so unworthy that we cannot approach Him without the assistance of His Mother at every moment? He is not presently tied to her physically via umbilical cord, as the instruments of the Covenant were sealed in the Ark. He is His own Person. He is The Door - do we need a door to The Door? Who is our goal, and our means? The Father, through Christ? Christ, through Mary? These are questions that I like to ask Traditionalists to consider, specifically. “Tradition without the Eternal High Priest is not tradition”, as it were. It is possible to so emphasize devotion to Nitzevet that we miss David, no?
All this will probably come across as “anti-Mary”, but it is not so. God forbid that anyone should separate the Ark from the Covenant. I love the Immaculate Virgin, as I love all the saints. Putting everything into her hands at every possible point, however, seems to miss the point of Christianity. Obviously there are no ill feelings here… it’s just fascinating to contrast the mindsets.
G
godisgood77
Guest
This is where I find myself as well. The Church has solemnly declared four Marian Dogmas. Divine Motherhood, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. What we are talking about here is beyond dogma.
Mary is the first Christian, the ark of the new covenant, the new Eve who cooperated with God’s grace!! Mary is venerated because of these things. During daily rosary with my family, we reflect on Jesus’ live, death and resurrection and pray for Mary’s intercession with Him in helping us to better know, love and serve Him. We also pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet to God and His Son and strive to come closer to Him through spending time with him and building our relationship with Him. I adore my personal and direct relationship with God and I cherish Mary for playing a special role in helping me to see Him more clearly…I think we all should, but would never force anyone to pray exactly as I do, nor would I force my personal devotions on another.
Dan
P.S. - Still searching for any reference to solemnly declarations about the ideas put forward in the thread…
C
Classicist
Guest
Dear Dan,
This is a good summation of my thoughts - and in a more charitable manner, too!
G
godisgood77
Guest
In the words of St Louis de Montfort… God Alone!Dear Dan,
This is a good summation of my thoughts - and in a more charitable manner, too!
J
JReducation
Guest
All of these dogmas are the icing on the cake. Beneath statement of the Immaculate Conception, there is an entire line of reasoning that the Catholic Church has embraced as truth and has developed over the centuries. We’re not to simply believe that Mary was conceived without original sin, we must also believe the reason why she IS the actual Immaculate Conception.
She is not simple the one conceived, but she is also the conception. This is how she identifies herself, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
St. Louis de Montfort is not simply one who writing beyond dogma. His writing about dogma. This is why he writings, after careful scrutiny by the Sacred Congregation of the Saints prior to his canonization were not only approved as being consistent with the faith, but were also accepted as a sign of heroic Christian faith.
This is important. The sign that the Church accepted for the veneration of Louis de Montfort was his love for Mary and its theology.
Here is what he has to say about what you’re saying regarding a possible forgetfullness of who Jesus is or the door to the door.
*
He who wishes to have the fruit of life, Jesus Christ, must have the tree of life, which is Mary; he who wishes to have in himself the operation of the Holy Ghost must have His faithful and indissoluble Spouse, Mary.
The more you look at Mary in your prayers, contemplations, actions, and sufferings, if not with a distinct and definite view, at least with a general and imperceptible one, the more perfectly will you find Jesus Christ, who is always with Mary, great, powerful, operative, and incomprehensible.*
St. Maximilian Kolbe, whose writings were also approved by the Sacred Congregation as being true to Catholic Marian dogma said
*
Who and what is the Immaculata? Who can understand her perfectly? . . . We all understand what “mother” means; but “mother of God” is something that our reason and our limited intellect cannot really grasp. So too, only God really understands what “immaculate” means. “Conceived without sin” we can fathom up to a point; but “Immaculate Conception” is an expression that abounds in the most consoling of mysteries.
Everything that exists, outside of God himself, since it is from God and depends upon him in every way, bears within itself some semblance to its Creator . . . because every created thing is an effect of the Primal Cause.
It is true that the words we use to speak of created realities express the divine perfections only in a halting, limited and analogical manner. They are only a more or less distant echo — as are created realities that they signify — of the properties of God himself.
Would not “conception” be an exception to this rule? No, there is never any exception . . .
And who is the Holy Spirit? The flowering of the love of the Father and the Son. If the fruit of created love is a created conception, then the fruit of divine Love, that prototype of all created love, is necessarily a divine “conception.” The Holy Spirit is, therefore, the “uncreated, eternal conception,” the prototype of all the conceptions that multiply life throughout the whole universe.
[T]he Holy Spirit manifests his share in the word of Redemption through the Immaculate Virgin who, although she is a person entirely distinct from him, is so intimately associated with him that our minds cannot understand it. So, while their union is not of the same order as the hypostatic union linking the human and divine natures in Christ, it remains true to say that Mary’s action is the very action of the Holy Spirit.
When we reflect on these two truths: that all graces come from the Father by the Son and the Holy Spirit; and that our Holy Mother Mary is, so to speak, one with the Holy Spirit, we are driven to the conclusion that all of God’s grace comes to us through Mary’s intercession. This is the “descending” order of grace.
*
What we have here are theological explanations of why Mary is the Immaculate Conception and why she was assumed into heaven. This is what the Church believes about her.
These writings underwent very careful scrutiny and they were approved by the CDF and the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. Please do not tell people that they can circumvent Mary, because that is contrary to Catholic belief. Mary brings all men to Christ, whether we want her to do so or not. No matter how Christocentric we make our prayer, Mary’s is always going to bring our prayer before her Son.
She is not simple the one conceived, but she is also the conception. This is how she identifies herself, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
St. Louis de Montfort is not simply one who writing beyond dogma. His writing about dogma. This is why he writings, after careful scrutiny by the Sacred Congregation of the Saints prior to his canonization were not only approved as being consistent with the faith, but were also accepted as a sign of heroic Christian faith.
This is important. The sign that the Church accepted for the veneration of Louis de Montfort was his love for Mary and its theology.
Here is what he has to say about what you’re saying regarding a possible forgetfullness of who Jesus is or the door to the door.
*
He who wishes to have the fruit of life, Jesus Christ, must have the tree of life, which is Mary; he who wishes to have in himself the operation of the Holy Ghost must have His faithful and indissoluble Spouse, Mary.
The more you look at Mary in your prayers, contemplations, actions, and sufferings, if not with a distinct and definite view, at least with a general and imperceptible one, the more perfectly will you find Jesus Christ, who is always with Mary, great, powerful, operative, and incomprehensible.*
St. Maximilian Kolbe, whose writings were also approved by the Sacred Congregation as being true to Catholic Marian dogma said
*
Who and what is the Immaculata? Who can understand her perfectly? . . . We all understand what “mother” means; but “mother of God” is something that our reason and our limited intellect cannot really grasp. So too, only God really understands what “immaculate” means. “Conceived without sin” we can fathom up to a point; but “Immaculate Conception” is an expression that abounds in the most consoling of mysteries.
Everything that exists, outside of God himself, since it is from God and depends upon him in every way, bears within itself some semblance to its Creator . . . because every created thing is an effect of the Primal Cause.
It is true that the words we use to speak of created realities express the divine perfections only in a halting, limited and analogical manner. They are only a more or less distant echo — as are created realities that they signify — of the properties of God himself.
Would not “conception” be an exception to this rule? No, there is never any exception . . .
And who is the Holy Spirit? The flowering of the love of the Father and the Son. If the fruit of created love is a created conception, then the fruit of divine Love, that prototype of all created love, is necessarily a divine “conception.” The Holy Spirit is, therefore, the “uncreated, eternal conception,” the prototype of all the conceptions that multiply life throughout the whole universe.
[T]he Holy Spirit manifests his share in the word of Redemption through the Immaculate Virgin who, although she is a person entirely distinct from him, is so intimately associated with him that our minds cannot understand it. So, while their union is not of the same order as the hypostatic union linking the human and divine natures in Christ, it remains true to say that Mary’s action is the very action of the Holy Spirit.
When we reflect on these two truths: that all graces come from the Father by the Son and the Holy Spirit; and that our Holy Mother Mary is, so to speak, one with the Holy Spirit, we are driven to the conclusion that all of God’s grace comes to us through Mary’s intercession. This is the “descending” order of grace.
*
What we have here are theological explanations of why Mary is the Immaculate Conception and why she was assumed into heaven. This is what the Church believes about her.
These writings underwent very careful scrutiny and they were approved by the CDF and the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. Please do not tell people that they can circumvent Mary, because that is contrary to Catholic belief. Mary brings all men to Christ, whether we want her to do so or not. No matter how Christocentric we make our prayer, Mary’s is always going to bring our prayer before her Son.
G
godisgood77
Guest
Question…According to the apparitions at Lourdes, this is what Mary called healed, correct?
Lourdes, Guadeloupe, Fatima - these are all private revelations. The Church does not call the faithful to belief in these. In the conversation where we are having, which is putting forward very precise theological arguments, statements or beliefs based on private revelation does not carry much weight. If we were going to use private revelation to justify authoritative teaching, we would point to Saint Faustina’s direct encounter with Christ as a counter …
Further, and with respect, I would never classify a dogma of the Catholic Church “icing on the cake”… Dogma are absolute statements about Church teaching, no? They are the five course meal. Theological debate about things that have not been defined with certainty and Church authority are icing on the cake or dessert in general. I would personally skip desert on this one and stick with the meat and potatoes. ;-). I don’t mean to come across as too cavalier on this, just trying to have some fun in the debate … it is clear that there is conviction on both sides…
God bless,
Dan
PS - still searching for a solemnly declaration of the ideas put forward in this thread.
J
JReducation
Guest
Don’t be so hypervigilant. By icing I mean that it’s the part of the dogma that most people can see or hear in a typical class. But there is more to the dogma that most people don’t know.
As far as the statement that she made at Lourdes, yes it is private revelation. However, the Church has repeated that statement on several occasions as worthy of belief. St. Maximilian shows us how it is possible.
D
De_Montfort
Guest
Hi brother!..
To be honest, I have been studying True devotion for about 3 years now. I tried to follow this what you posted above. But I failed to accomplish this. I turned to Mary in my prayers and it brought me closer only to her. Now I have nothing against Mary or St. Louis de Montfort and I have no doubt True Devotion worked for him, I believe he is a mystic.
But even He stated if Christ is not the end of any devotion it is false and misleading. I feel like True devotion puts Christ at a distance, but from what De Montfort taught it is continual union with Christ. I really felt like it put Christ at a distance when it is time for communion ( placing him in Mary)…
I have taken a step back, and took some things into consideration. Christ said the greatest and first commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and to love neighbor as self. So there is proper ordered love…
I had one friend tell me it is a fine line to walk, and another warned to keep God in proper focus. So we can think to highly of Mary our love can be disordered! It happened to me and it was on accident…
Than we have Scripture which gives witness to many people coming to Christ on their own. And He healed them all. My favorite one is the woman who came to Him and asked her daughter to be healed and Christ said, “its not right to give bread to the dogs, that belong to the children”, and she replied to him, “yes Lord but even the dogs eat the scraps from the masters table.” He granted her request and praised her for her faith. I can relate to this woman because of my great sins and my unworthiness.
Now I am not saying I don’t need Mary’s help. I still ask her for her intersession but we also have to look at what Christ said, “Come to me all you who labor and find life burdensome.” So I feel safe placing myself in His care, and I believe Mary would be the first to say, “Do whatever He tells you”…
- Status