Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition

[JReducation]

Hi brother!..

To be honest, I have been studying True devotion for about 3 years now. I tried to follow this what you posted above. But I failed to accomplish this. I turned to Mary in my prayers and it brought me closer only to her. Now I have nothing against Mary or St. Louis de Montfort and I have no doubt True Devotion worked for him, I believe he is a mystic.

But even He stated if Christ is not the end of any devotion it is false and misleading. I feel like True devotion puts Christ at a distance, but from what De Montfort taught it is continual union with Christ. I really felt like it put Christ at a distance when it is time for communion ( placing him in Mary)…

I have taken a step back, and took some things into consideration. Christ said the greatest and first commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and to love neighbor as self. So there is proper ordered love…

I had one friend tell me it is a fine line to walk, and another warned to keep God in proper focus. So we can think to highly of Mary our love can be disordered! It happened to me and it was on accident…

Than we have Scripture which gives witness to many people coming to Christ on their own. And He healed them all. My favorite one is the woman who came to Him and asked her daughter to be healed and Christ said, “its not right to give bread to the dogs, that belong to the children”, and she replied to him, “yes Lord but even the dogs eat the scraps from the masters table.” He granted her request and praised her for her faith. I can relate to this woman because of my great sins and my unworthiness.

Now I am not saying I don’t need Mary’s help. I still ask her for her intersession but we also have to look at what Christ said, “Come to me all you who labor and find life burdensome.” So I feel safe placing myself in His care, and I believe Mary would be the first to say, “Do whatever He tells you”…

Something went terribly wrong if that’s where you ended up, because that’s not the normal outcome for those who follow the spirituality of St. Louis, just look at St. Maximilian Kolbe and Bl. John Paul II. They were both ardent disciples of St. Louis.

Were you guided by someone who knew and understood St. Louis’ work? Sometimes that helps, provided the person really understand St. Louis. If they don’t understand, then they lead one to a dead end street where one doesn’t really have a Marian devotion, because all Marian devotion leads to Christ. There is nothing about Mary that is not Christocentric. Everything about her speaks of the glory of her Son.

If a person says that they have a Marian devotion or Marian spirituality, which ever they call it, but they don’t have a sense of closeness to Jesus, then it’s not Marian. It’s externally Marian, because they’re going through the right motions, but something went wrong somewhere. Very often it’s not the person’s fault. Things do go wrong in the spiritual life, hence the importance of a spiritual director who is trained in spiritual direction or who has a natural gift for it. A good spiritual director should be able to discern the spirits and lead one through the process of discernment and prayer.

Remember, a good spiritual director need not be a priest. There are deacons, sisters, religious brothers, and laymen or laywomen who are trained and highly skilled spiritual directors. If one’s priest is not a good spiritual director or is not trained in the spiritual life, there are other people who are. It is a false assumption that all priests are trained in the spiritual life. Priests are all trained in moral theology and pastoral counseling. Spiritual Theology is an elective in some seminaries. You can choose between Spiritual Theology and Pastoral Counseling. It depends on the seminary and the major in which the seminarian is working on.

 

[De_Montfort]

Something went terribly wrong if that’s where you ended up, because that’s not the normal outcome for those who follow the spirituality of St. Louis, just look at St. Maximilian Kolbe and Bl. John Paul II. They were both ardent disciples of St. Louis.

Were you guided by someone who knew and understood St. Louis’ work? Sometimes that helps, provided the person really understand St. Louis. If they don’t understand, then they lead one to a dead end street where one doesn’t really have a Marian devotion, because all Marian devotion leads to Christ. There is nothing about Mary that is not Christocentric. Everything about her speaks of the glory of her Son.

If a person says that they have a Marian devotion or Marian spirituality, which ever they call it,** but they don’t have a sense of closeness to Jesus, then it’s not Marian.** It’s externally Marian, because they’re going through the right motions, but something went wrong somewhere. Very often it’s not the person’s fault. Things do go wrong in the spiritual life, hence the importance of a spiritual director who is trained in spiritual direction or who has a natural gift for it. A good spiritual director should be able to discern the spirits and lead one through the process of discernment and prayer.

Remember, a good spiritual director need not be a priest. There are deacons, sisters, religious brothers, and laymen or laywomen who are trained and highly skilled spiritual directors. If one’s priest is not a good spiritual director or is not trained in the spiritual life, there are other people who are. It is a false assumption that all priests are trained in the spiritual life. Priests are all trained in moral theology and pastoral counseling. Spiritual Theology is an elective in some seminaries. You can choose between Spiritual Theology and Pastoral Counseling. It depends on the seminary and the major in which the seminarian is working on.

Thank you for the reply brother!

I have no one to talk about my spirituality. I went to a couple of priests, one told me that disordered love of Mary sounded protestant; and that I should listen to St. Louis. I had another one tell me Mary is not God and was a little more on the caution side.

Now what bothered me was the feelings I was getting, I didn’t like them but they came to my mind, like for instance having feelings that Mary wouldn’t bow to God. I immediately rejected such feelings, but after being on here and told one can have disordered love, it kinda scared me. Can the devil mess with your feelings?

As far as the bold part in your statement, I felt and wondered the same thing. I believe I am blind to heavenly things because I am a carnal man. But all that I have read, which is both St. Louis and Maximilian Kolbe and many other books about Mary I understand Mary is completely Christocentric, and it upsets me I failed at feeling closer to Christ. To be honest though I started noticing things in Scripture and such, that I never noticed before. I still pray a rosary a day by God’s good grace…

So if you have any good advise, I’m all ears. Am I odd for feeling distant from Christ during Holy Communion, ushering Him into Mary. Is that self hidden pride showing its ugly face?

If you can help me at all, I would greatly appreciate it…

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

I’m going to recommend that you read another book. The Silence of Mary
by Ignacio Larranaga. It’s on amazon.com. Get a used copy. New ones are very expensive. He’s a Franciscan as well. What he will do is walk you through Mary’s life and her humanity. For some people, the problem they have with St. Louis and St. Maximilian is that both of them assume that their audience has an clear understanding of Mary’s humanity. They don’t dwell on that too much. However, when a person does not have a strong foundation on Mary’s humanity, it is very possible to build her up into something that even she does not want to be.

Some of your comments below are rather interesting.

I have no one to talk about my spirituality.

That’s a bummer. Sometimes you can find spiritual friends, if not a spiritual director, with whom you can communicate via email.

I went to a couple of priests, one told me that disordered love of Mary sounded protestant; and that I should listen to St. Louis. I had another one tell me Mary is not God and was a little more on the caution side.

This takes me back to my statement that not all priests are trained in the spiritual life. I don’t know why people assume this. Priests will tell you this themselves. Some are naturals at it, especially men like St. Francis de Sales.

Now what bothered me was the feelings I was getting, I didn’t like them but they came to my mind, like for instance having feelings that Mary wouldn’t bow to God. I immediately rejected such feelings, but after being on here and told one can have disordered love, it kinda scared me. Can the devil mess with your feelings?

He certainly can. He has no control over your will. He can certainly distract you from your journey by putting ideas into your head that are toxic. St. Ignatius of Loyola always said that if it looks to easy, it’s probably the wrong way to go. The enemy always likes to make things look attractive.

As far as the bold part in your statement, I felt and wondered the same thing. I believe I am blind to heavenly things because I am a carnal man.

Nice of you to join the rest of us down here. LOL We’re all blind. It is only by grace that we can see a little bit at a time. Don’t fuss over that. Accept what God gives and give what he takes.

I started noticing things in Scripture and such, that I never noticed before. I still pray a rosary a day by God’s good grace…

There is no reason to discount that Our Lady may be guiding you through Scripture. She is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. It’s not the first time that he has brought Christ to others and others to Christ through her, beginning with the Incarnation. The Rosary is very biblical.

Something that I do with the rosary is mix it up. I don’t always pray all five glorious mysteries, etc. Sometimes, it helps me to pray the mystery that speaks about where I am at the moment. For example, if I’m struggling with the flesh, I’ll pray the scourging at the pilar. If I need to meditate on charity, I’ll pray the Visitation. If I feel the need to praise and thank God, I’ll pray any of the Glorious mysteries and so forth. Because the rosary is a private prayer, there are no rubrics to it.

Am I odd for feeling distant from Christ during Holy Communion, ushering Him into Mary. Is that self hidden pride showing its ugly face?

I don’t know if it’s pride. I’d have to hear more. But I do know that it’s not odd at all to feel nothing at Holy Communion. Dryness is also part of the spiritual journey. Sometimes, God allows us to experience dryness so that we may embrace him with the will and the intellect. It’s very easy to embrace God when we FEEL good. It’s much more difficult to embrace God when we feel nothing, but we KNOW that he is close at hand.

Bl. Mother Teresa often spoke about this in her diary and letters. She felt nothing, but she knew what God wanted of her and she knew what she wanted to give him. She acted on what she knew, even though she really wanted to feel God’s presence and did not.

I believe that no one can go through the spiritual journey without experiencing this dryness. For some, it’s an extended period. For others, it’s short periods that repeat themselves. I’m in the latter group.

 

[hazcompat]

WHY DEVOTION TO MARY?
Franciscan Friars​

Why have devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary? This is a point debated hotly among our Protestant brethren and which is briefly answered here…
Perhaps devotion to the Mother of God is the constant “WHY?” even among Catholics. Is it necessary? Or, is She important to our Christian life? Finding no convincing answers, this develops into a kind of restraint to come to Her. The Mother of the Redeemer becomes a stranger to the soul that was washed by Christ’s blood-the blood that He owed from Mary. Others are even afraid that devotion to Mary might interfere their devotion to Christ. “How can I give my full attention to Christ, and so my love, if I am devoted to Mary?” It is simply the difficulty of loving two persons with one heart. Yet, this is the common rationalization of many. Others are apathetic to any Marian devotion because they are thinking that it is “Too Much!” for Her, a creature like us. It is as if too much devotion to Mary would make Her a god. These are the assumptions of others that prevent them from experiencing the warmth of Her maternal love, the happiness of being a child to a most loving Mother and the consolation of being drawn closer to Jesus.

But we can sum up this cold Marian attitude in a single word: IGNORANCE. It is the lack of knowledge of the person, privileges and role of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Oftentimes there is a confusion between veneration of Mary and adoration to Her. Of course, we don’t and never adore the Blessed Virgin as our Protestant brothers accuse us. There is a bold line that delineates between veneration and adoration. No matter how you multiply your veneration, it never ends up with adoration. Just as addition can never make an infinite sum, so our veneration and devotion to Mary remains simply honor to a creature. Period. When we honor Her we never displease our Lord. It never interferes our love and devotion to Christ. It is noteworthy to quote what the Church says on this matter: “The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power… It rests on His mediation, depends upon it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ” (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 60).

Jesus is never envious when we honor His Mother. On the contrary, He wills it. He even expressed it in the Fourth Commandment: “Honor your father and mother.” Is not the Blessed Virgin our Mother? Jesus Himself upon hanging on the Cross gave His Mother as our Mother: “Behold thy Mother” (John 19:27). Although we are not worthy of Her motherhood, Christ gave Her to us because He knew very well that we need a mother like Her. And She is not simply a metaphorical Mother, and we as metaphorical children, but Mary is TRULY our Mother in the supernatural order just as she who gave us birth is our TRUE mother in the natural order. According to Fr. Neubert, S.M.: “A mother is one who gives life. Mary has given you life, the most real life.”

In order for us that we may honor Mary as our Mother, Jesus, the Son of God, set an example to follow. He was very obedient to Mary (Luke 2:51) because He was the most loving Son. If to be a Christian means a follower of Christ, then are we not to imitate the love and obedience of Jesus to His Mother? How can we become perfect disciples of Jesus imitating Him in every aspect of His life when we fail to love and obey His Mother? And this is precisely what Marian devotion consists of, love and obedience. So in the person of Jesus we have that divine example of devotion to Mary. His example must be perfect; and that is, what we ought to follow as Christian. If we have to follow Christ’s standard of devotion to His Mother, then we should not be afraid in giving Her “too much” love for we will never come to love Her as Jesus did, according to St. Maximilian. Do we think that we can outmatch the love of Jesus to His Mother? Then why are we so reserved in giving our love to Her, in expressing our devotion to Her? Being a Mother of grace She rightly deserves our love-the highest love that we can possibly have. And don’t be afraid; our love to Her is too little in comparison with Jesus’ love.

Why devotion to Mary? Because Jesus wills it by giving Her Mother as our Mother. Fr. Stefano Maria Pio, FFI, S.T.D. says: “The first foundation for devotion to Mary is Her status as Mother and our status as Her children.” This is the reason why the saints had a passionate love to the Blessed Virgin because they looked at Her as a fond Mother. They believed that only by casting themselves upon the maternal care of the Immaculate Mother that one can truly resemble Jesus who quietly rested in His Mother’s arms.

Only in frequent recourse to Her that one can be nearer to Jesus. And only in loving Her that one can love Jesus more than one can do by himself. Devotion to Mary is highly recommended in the school of the saints. There is no other way, that is surer, closer and quicker, to Jesus than Mary. AD JESUM PER MARIAM (To Jesus through Mary) is the watchword of the servants of God. In Her we have nothing to do but only a disposition: be a child to a mother; as simple as that and we will experience a sweet intimacy with Jesus, our Brother.

This document is part of The Little Internet Library of the Blessed Virgin Mary maintained by the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate as the central feature of the Home Page of the Immaculate.

The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are a Roman Catholic Religious Institute of solemn vows headquartered at Benevento, Italy. Their Home Page is maintained from the Marian Friary of Our Lady Queen of the Seraphic Order, New Bedford, MA, United States of America.

 

[hazcompat]

Pope Pius X

AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM

…
5…For can anyone fail to see that there is no surer or more direct road than by Mary for uniting all mankind in Christ and obtaining through Him the perfect adoption of sons, that we may be holy and immaculate in the sight of God? For if to Mary it was truly said: “Blessed art thou who hast believed because in thee shall be fulfilled the things that have been told thee by the Lord” (Luke i., 45); or in other words, that she would conceive and bring forth the Son of God and if she did receive in her breast Him who is by nature Truth itself in order that “He, generated in a new order and with a new nativity, though invisible in Himself, might become visible in our flesh” (St. Leo the Great, Ser. 2, De Nativ. Dom.): the Son of God made man, being the “author and consummator of our faith”; it surely follows that His Mother most holy should be recognized as participating in the divine mysteries and as being in a manner the guardian of them, and that upon her as upon a foundation, the noblest after Christ, rises the edifice of the faith of all centuries.

1. How think otherwise? Could not God have given us, in another way than through the Virgin the Redeemer of the human race and the Founder of the Faith? But, since Divine Providence has been pleased that we should have the Man-God through Mary, who conceived Him by the Holy Ghost and bore Him in her breast, it only remains for us to receive Christ from the hands of Mary. Hence whenever the Scriptures speak prophetically of the grace which was to appear among us, the Redeemer of mankind is almost invariably presented to us as united with His mother. The Lamb that is to rule the world will be sent—but He will be sent from the rock of the desert; the flower will blossom, but it will blossom from the root of Jesse. Adam, the father of mankind, looked to Mary crushing the serpent’s head, and he dried the tears that the malediction had brought into his eyes. Noe thought of her when shut up in the ark of safety, and Abraham when prevented from the slaying of his son; Jacob at the sight of the ladder on which angels ascended and descended; Moses amazed at the sight of the bush which burned but was not consumed; David escorting the arc of God with dancing and psalmody; Elias as he looked at the little cloud that rose out of the sea. In fine, after Christ, we find in Mary the end of the law and the fulfillment of the figures and oracles.
2. And that through the Virgin, and through her more than through any other means, we have offered us a way of reaching the knowledge of Jesus Christ, cannot be doubted when it is remembered that with her alone of all others Jesus was for thirty years united, as a son is usually united with a mother, in the closest ties of intimacy and domestic life. Who could better than His Mother have an open knowledge of the admirable mysteries of the birth and childhood of Christ, and above all of the mystery of the Incarnation, which is the beginning and the foundation of faith? Mary not only preserved and meditated on the events of Bethlehem and the facts which took place in Jerusalem in the Temple of the Lord, but sharing as she did the thoughts and the secret wishes of Christ she may be said to have lived the very life of her Son. Hence nobody ever knew Christ so profoundly as she did, and nobody can ever be more competent as a guide and teacher of the knowledge of Christ.

Peace

 

[Classicist]

There’s a lot of clever reasoning in that “Franciscan Friars” excerpt, but the capitalization for Mary’s pronoun - “Her” - tells us everything we need to know.

I wonder if there were ever Catholics that had less of a devotion to Mary and still had a strong devotion to Christ, especially pre-Vatican II. Was devotion to the Immaculate “higher” back then, in the “traditional” era, or was it the same, or less?

 

[floresco]

I wonder if there were ever Catholics that had less of a devotion to Mary and still had a strong devotion to Christ, especially pre-Vatican II. Was devotion to the Immaculate “higher” back then, in the “traditional” era, or was it the same, or less?

Devotion to Mary is not opposed to or in competition to devotion to Christ. Throughout the history of the Church whatever strengthens one strengthens the other.

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t know if it’s pride. I’d have to hear more. But I do know that it’s not odd at all to feel nothing at Holy Communion. Dryness is also part of the spiritual journey. Sometimes, God allows us to experience dryness so that we may embrace him with the will and the intellect. It’s very easy to embrace God when we FEEL good. It’s much more difficult to embrace God when we feel nothing, but we KNOW that he is close at hand.

Bl. Mother Teresa often spoke about this in her diary and letters. She felt nothing, but she knew what God wanted of her and she knew what she wanted to give him. She acted on what she knew, even though she really wanted to feel God’s presence and did not.

I believe that no one can go through the spiritual journey without experiencing this dryness. For some, it’s an extended period. For others, it’s short periods that repeat themselves. I’m in the latter group.

It is one of the most agonizing feelings in the world, when after being carried in the palm of God’s hand for years, feeling an amazing sense of peace while the rest of the world is in a rage, feeling strength to do anything and knowing that it is God giving it to you in spite or yourself, and hearing God speak with you in the depths of your heart and soul on a daily basis - then one day you wake up and there is absolutely nothing.

It is like the death of a child, an agonizing hole in your heart that you can’t fill no matter how hard you pray, no matter how many books you read and no matter how many times you receive the sacraments.

For a while I wondered if it was something I had done and would just sit on the patio staring at the clouds wondering if God had left me forever and what I had to do to get him back.

It is so frightening too. When the Father lets go and you have to walk on your own… I pray, “Lord, help me to remember what it was like that first day when I gave you everything.”

-Tim-

 

[Classicist]

Devotion to Mary is not opposed to or in competition to devotion to Christ. Throughout the history of the Church whatever strengthens one strengthens the other.

You know, people say that a lot, but never actually demonstrate how it works. One can really say anything about anyone leading to Christ. “Devotion to Peter always leads to devotion to Christ”. “Devotion to the Five Wounds always leads to devotion to Christ”. Saying an Ave or a Salve does not jump start us into talking to Christ. There is no absolute consequence that follows upon the action. Could traditionalists be a bit more scholastic and Thomistic about this… if only to explain it better?

One thing is true, and has zero examples to the contrary: devotion to Christ leads to devotion to Christ. Church Tradition is His, and no one else’s. How many simple, average people do you know that are 100% “consecrated” to Mary and are always holding rosaries, always praising Mary’s help, always kissing Mary’s statues - and who end up actually talking about Jesus at some point? It seems a rare thing. Devotion to Mary tends to lead to devotion to Mary, in my experience. You become so focused on addressing the “Portal to Christ” that you try to find greater and more poetic ways to address the Portal herself.

I don’t see how there’s an immediate correlation. This doesn’t mean I “reject Mary” or “hate Mary”, or am “anti-Mary”. I just like to know what I am doing, and to make sure it is right.

 

[TimothyH]

You know, people say that a lot, but never actually demonstrate how it works. One can really say anything about anyone leading to Christ. “Devotion to Peter always leads to devotion to Christ”. “Devotion to the Five Wounds always leads to devotion to Christ”. Saying an Ave or a Salve does not jump start us into talking to Christ. There is no absolute consequence that follows upon the action. Could traditionalists be a bit more scholastic and Thomistic about this… if only to explain it better?

One thing is true, and has zero examples to the contrary: devotion to Christ leads to devotion to Christ. Church Tradition is His, and no one else’s. How many simple, average people do you know that are 100% “consecrated” to Mary and are always holding rosaries, always praising Mary’s help, always kissing Mary’s statues - and who end up actually talking about Jesus at some point? It seems a rare thing.** Devotion to Mary tends to lead to devotion to Mary, in my experience. You become so focused on addressing the “Portal to Christ” that you try to find greater and more poetic ways to address the Portal herself.**

I don’t see how there’s an immediate correlation. This doesn’t mean I “reject Mary” or “hate Mary”, or am “anti-Mary”. I just like to know what I am doing, and to make sure it is right.

Your experience is different from the experience of many others. That is certainly not my experience.

I offer my prayer’s to Mary, knowing that she will take them to Jesus.

I pray, “Mary, I offer you this prayer, knowing that if there is anything good in it you will take it to the foot of your Son’s throne where it will become an offering , and knowing that if there is anything evil in what I pray, that you will take it to the foot of your Son’s cross where it will be purified.” This is Mary leading to Jesus.

I ask Mary to escort me into her Son’s presence whenever I go to Adoration. I stop at a statue of Mary in the grotto of our Church and pray, “Mary, my Queen, though I am not worthy to stand in the presence of your Son the King, I know that if you escort me into his presence and ask him to hear me, that he will.” Again, Mary leading to Jesus.

That is my experience. As they say, your mileage may vary.

-Tim-

 

[floresco]

You know, people say that a lot, but never actually demonstrate how it works. One can really say anything about anyone leading to Christ. “Devotion to Peter always leads to devotion to Christ”. “Devotion to the Five Wounds always leads to devotion to Christ”. Saying an Ave or a Salve does not jump start us into talking to Christ. There is no absolute consequence that follows upon the action. Could traditionalists be a bit more scholastic and Thomistic about this… if only to explain it better?

Devotion to Mary leads to devotion to Christ because we are accepting her as a gift from Him. We are grateful to Him for sharing His mother with us. She prays for us to grow closer to Him. She sets us an example of giving our lives to Christ. She tells us “Do whatever He tells you.”

We see the correlation over and over again in the lives of the Saints. Whatever may be your personal experience, when we look to the tradition of the Church, great sanctity is consistently accompanied by devotion to Mary.

 

[Classicist]

Your experience is different from the experience of many others. That is certainly not my experience.

I offer my prayer’s to Mary, knowing that she will take them to Jesus.

I pray, “Mary, I offer you this prayer, knowing that if there is anything good in it you will take it to the foot of your Son’s throne where it will become an offering , and knowing that if there is anything evil in what I pray, that you will take it to the foot of your Son’s cross where it will be purified.” This is Mary leading to Jesus.

I ask Mary to escort me into her Son’s presence whenever I go to Adoration. I stop at a statue of Mary in the grotto of our Church and pray, “Mary, my Queen, though I am not worthy to stand in the presence of your Son the King, I know that if you escort me into his presence and ask him to hear me, that he will.” Again, Mary leading to Jesus.

That is my experience. As they say, your mileage may vary.

-Tim-

Thank you for the reply Tim.

The most ancient Fathers loved Tradition and considered anything non-Traditional to be strange, but they hardly ever talked about the need of Marian devotion as if it were the one sure way to preserve Tradition. Devotion to the Christ, yes, but to the Immaculate?

I guess the biggest worry of my own Novus Ordo mentality is that there is a subtle substitution going on: “Jesus → Father”, as the goal taught directly by Christ, is shifted to “Mary → Jesus”. Christ never actually said that He is the goal of the Christian. It’s especially clear throughout John’s Gospel: Christ came that we may know the Father, Christ is the Way to the Father, Christ is the Door, Christ is the Shepherd that leads to the Father, and Christ is the Vine. He is the Light that leads us to the Father. If His own Personal Light is so dim that it is insufficient to take us personally to the Father, and only the Light of His Mother can lead us to Him and the Father, then Christ Himself is not the Light. The illumination of Tradition is the Light of Christ, not of the Immaculate.

That is what is at stake here, in my admittedly small opinion.

Devotion to Mary leads to devotion to Christ because we are accepting her as a gift from Him. We are grateful to Him for sharing His mother with us. She prays for us to grow closer to Him. She sets us an example of giving our lives to Christ. She tells us “Do whatever He tells you.”

We see the correlation over and over again in the lives of the Saints. Whatever may be your personal experience, when we look to the tradition of the Church, great sanctity is consistently accompanied by devotion to Mary.

Thanks floresco…

If we are accepting Mary as a gift from Christ, then doesn’t devotion to Christ lead to devotion to Mary? We’re getting into quite a big thing here!

The Blessed Virgin certainly prays for us to grow closer to Him. She sets the most perfect example of all time. This is not the same as the way she is spoken of in “The Glories of Mary” and “True Devotion”, however. There’s a big difference between your orthodox, balanced statements about Mary and, for example, the many many super-charged overpowered titles given to her in those books. Those books, of course, are the source for all the devotion of those who “give up everything to the Immaculate” every day, and say the most intense things about her.

I guess I won’t get anywhere with this line of questioning. It all sounds so terribly flippant.

 

[Fevronia]

You know, people say that a lot, but never actually demonstrate how it works. One can really say anything about anyone leading to Christ. “Devotion to Peter always leads to devotion to Christ”. “Devotion to the Five Wounds always leads to devotion to Christ”. Saying an Ave or a Salve does not jump start us into talking to Christ. There is no absolute consequence that follows upon the action. Could traditionalists be a bit more scholastic and Thomistic about this… if only to explain it better?

One thing is true, and has zero examples to the contrary: devotion to Christ leads to devotion to Christ. Church Tradition is His, and no one else’s. How many simple, average people do you know that are 100% “consecrated” to Mary and are always holding rosaries, always praising Mary’s help, always kissing Mary’s statues - and who end up actually talking about Jesus at some point? It seems a rare thing. Devotion to Mary tends to lead to devotion to Mary, in my experience. You become so focused on addressing the “Portal to Christ” that you try to find greater and more poetic ways to address the Portal herself.

I don’t see how there’s an immediate correlation. This doesn’t mean I “reject Mary” or “hate Mary”, or am “anti-Mary”. I just like to know what I am doing, and to make sure it is right.

Perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way.

The world got Christ through Mary. God could have chosen to give the world Christ without any assistance or cooperation of a creature but he did not choose to do it like that. He gave us Christ through Mary.

The other issue is with respect to where you and I stand with respect to God’s favor. You and I are sinners. We are still running the race and still falling. Mary has run the race and she has been sinless throughout her life. God favors her requests more than yours. So when Mary intercedes on your behalf, her prayers are infinitely more efficacious with Christ.

So having her as your protector could be the difference between us rejecting a grace of God and been abandoned to rot in our sins vs. God giving us another chance and more Grace due to her intercession.

The more we understand where we stand with respect to God and Mary, the more we understand her role.

All proper devotion to Mary is a pleading for her to take us to Christ or take our requests to Christ. Therefore Marian devotion does not lead us away from Christ but only increase our reliance on Christ through Mary.

But going the way you described i.e. directly to Christ, is a good way to end up somewhere else because God doesn’t have any obligation to provide us Grace or help every time we fall.

 

[Fevronia]

Thank you for the reply Tim.

The most ancient Fathers loved Tradition and considered anything non-Traditional to be strange, but they hardly ever talked about the need of Marian devotion as if it were the one sure way to preserve Tradition. Devotion to the Christ, yes, but to the Immaculate?

I guess the biggest worry of my own Novus Ordo mentality is that there is a subtle substitution going on: “Jesus → Father”, as the goal taught directly by Christ, is shifted to “Mary → Jesus”. Christ never actually said that He is the goal of the Christian. It’s especially clear throughout John’s Gospel: Christ came that we may know the Father, Christ is the Way to the Father, Christ is the Door, Christ is the Shepherd that leads to the Father, and Christ is the Vine. He is the Light that leads us to the Father. If His own Personal Light is so dim that it is insufficient to take us personally to the Father, and only the Light of His Mother can lead us to Him and the Father, then Christ Himself is not the Light. The illumination of Tradition is the Light of Christ, not of the Immaculate.

That is what is at stake here, in my admittedly small opinion.

Well the problem here is that you feel that you have figured what Christ wants after reading Scripture. You are not alone among the countless others who interpreted the same things.

As for Marian devotion being present in early times, have you heard of the Syro Malabar Catholics in India? They claim that they got the faith from St. Thomas in 52 AD. Can you take a guess as to their level of Marian devotion? No one knew about them till missionaries landed in India in the 15th and 16th century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Thomas_Syro-Malabar_Catholic_Church,_Palayoor

So it turns out, even the first Apostles preached of devotion to Mary.

 

[Fevronia]

Here is an interesting interview that focuses on the devotion to Mary by the Syro Malabar Catholics.

zenit.org/en/articles/5th-dogma-a-marian-antidote

If I may quote an interesting line

“Cardinal Vithayathil: Yes, the Syro-Malabar Catholics have a great tradition of intense devotion to Our Lady. There is a belief among them that the apostle St. Thomas who first preached the Gospel to their ancestors had brought with him a replica of the picture of the Blessed Virgin supposedly painted by the Evangelist Luke. Centuries before the Portuguese missionaries arrived, there were many churches dedicated to Our Lady in Malabar.”

 

[Classicist]

Fevronia, thanks for the replies.

1. Yes, the world received Christ through Mary. This is part of several dogmas. Thanks be to God. Christ is not presently attached to His Mother via umbilical cord, however. He is a Person separate from His Mother. I know it sounds obvious, but it’s important to point out.
2. Mary never was and is not a sinner, by grace. Christ, however, is sinless by Nature and is the eternal Son of God. His petitions reach the Father immediately, whereas Mary’s petitions reach the Father through Christ. It stands to reason that Christ’s advocacy and intercession are closer to perfection than His Mother’s. God hears Mary’s request before ours, it is true, but Christ is already God and He said “come unto me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest”. He gives us rest by, and of himself, easily. He came to dine with sinners, not put them at a distance.
3. You basically said “going directly to Christ is a good way to end up somewhere else”. I am sorry but I think this is blasphemy. Christ did not initiate a new covenant and testament just to ignore it. Christ is not Satan.
4. The point about the Syro-Malabar and Mary is interesting. The story about St. Luke painting the BVM’s portrait and apostolic devotion to Mary sounds nice, but it isn’t substantiated. Colonial powers made a lot of things up about their myriad travels.

 

[hazcompat]

It is about the order of grace. She is first in the order of grace!

Peace

 

[Classicist]

It is about the order of grace. She is first in the order of grace!

Peace

Being God, Our Lord & Savior is Grace itself!

Hmm…

 

[Fevronia]

1. The point about the Syro-Malabar and Mary is interesting. The story about St. Luke painting the BVM’s portrait and apostolic devotion to Mary sounds nice, but it isn’t substantiated. Colonial powers made a lot of things up about their myriad travels.

Let us concentrate on this last point. I think its safe to say that your whole argument stands or falls based on it. If Apostles had devotion to Mary, then your suspicion and fear of it is unfounded and in error.

First on the subject of colonialist, I think you have to keep in mind that the colonialist tried to “convert” them to the Catholic faith first. They refused. You can read accounts of St. Francis Xavier to get information on that issue.

So your claim that these people made up these stories because of colonialist is to do injustice to their traditions. Are only white European historical traditions accurate? Why should we look at their claim that St. Thomas brought a painting of our Blessed Mother by St. Luke with suspicion unless we are already biased against them?

At the time the Portuguese landed, most of the Churches were devoted to Mary as indicated in that article. They had no reason to make this lie up because as far as they were initially concerned, this was a group that had to be converted to the Catholic faith. No one had a concept that St. Thomas visited India and established Christian faith already.

Therefore I do not think we can just brush it aside as unsubstantiated. If that were the case, we might as well say the whole of Christianity is unsubstantiated. Why should we value the historical tradition of Europeans more than that of these men and women in Malabar?

Considering how detested colonial influence is in that part of the world, I am sure the locals will remember fully well if something was introduced. ESPECIALLY, if as you say they only went directly to Christ and someone decided to introduce a woman in to the midst. That would be an amendment of magnitude proportions that will not be taken lightly. There is no record of such a thing.

Keep in mind that the colonialist failed most of the time to convert the Hindu populations and make up stories as you say. So why should we think this case any different?

 

[hazcompat]

Being God, Our Lord & Savior is Grace itself!

Hmm…

John 14: 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?

Is your place between Jesus and Mary? I do not understand what your saying. No one is equating any created being with God!

Peace