Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition

[hazcompat]

Matthew 19: 28 Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mary is higher than the Apostles in the order of grace.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Fr. William Most
“As a result, she is our Mother in the order of grace.” With these few words Vatican II (On the Church 61) gave us a brilliant theology of the Motherhood of Our Lady, and a marvelous help to understand the motherhood of all Mothers. To follow it, we need to read the two sentences that come before it: “The Blessed Virgin, predestined from eternity along with the Incarnation of the Divine Word, as the Mother of God, on this earth was the gracious Mother of the Divine Redeemer, His associate more than others, in a singular way, and the humble maid-servant of the Lord. In conceiving Christ, in bringing Him forth, in nourishing Him, in presenting Him to the Father in the Temple, in suffering with her Son as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result, she is our Mother in the order of grace.”

Blessed John Paul II Pope
MARY HAS UNIVERSAL SPIRITUAL MOTHERHOOD

1. Mary is mother of humanity in the order of grace. The Second Vatican Council highlights this role of Mary, linking it to her co-operation in Christ’s Redemption.
   “In the designs of divine Providence, she was the gracious mother of the divine Redeemer here on earth, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord” (Lumen gentium, n. 61).
   With these statements, the Constitution Lumen gentium wishes to give proper emphasis to the fact that the Blessed Virgin was intimately associated with Christ’s redemptive work, becoming the Saviour’s “generous associate”, “in a singular way”.
   With the actions of any mother, from the most ordinary to the most demanding, Mary freely co-operated in the work of humanity’s salvation in profound and constant harmony with her divine Son.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Blessed JohnPaul II

Our Lady’s motherhood has universal scope

1. The Council also points out that Mary’s co-operation was inspired by the Gospel virtues of obedience, faith, hope and charity, and was accomplished under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It also recalls that the gift of her universal spiritual motherhood stems precisely from this co-operation: associated with Christ in the work of Redemption, which includes the spiritual regeneration of humanity, she becomes mother of those reborn to new life.

In saying that Mary is “a mother to us in the order of grace” (cf. ibid.), the Council stresses that her spiritual motherhood is not limited to the disciples alone, as though the words spoken by Jesus on Calvary: “Woman, behold your son” (Jn 19:26), required a restrictive interpretation. Indeed, with these words the Crucified One established an intimate relationship between Mary and his beloved disciple, a typological figure of universal scope, intending to offer his Mother as Mother to all mankind.

On the other hand, the universal efficacy of the redeeming sacrifice and Mary’s conscious co-operation with Christ’s sacrificial offering does not allow any limitation of her motherly love.

Mary’s universal mission is exercised in the context of her unique relationship with the Church. With her concern for every Christian, and indeed for every human creature, she guides the faith of the Church towards an ever deeper acceptance of God’s Word, sustains her hope, enlivens her charity and fraternal communion and encourages her apostolic dynamism.

1. During her earthly life, Mary showed her spiritual motherhood to the Church for a very short time. Nonetheless, the full value of her role appeared after the Assumption and is destined to extend down the centuries to the end of the world. The Council expressly states: “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the Cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect” (Lumen gentium, n. 62).

Having entered the Father’s eternal kingdom, closer to her divine Son and thus closer to us all, she can more effectively exercise in the Spirit the role of maternal intercession entrusted to her by divine Providence.

1. The heavenly Father wanted to place Mary close to Christ and in communion with him who can “save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25): he wanted to unite to the Redeemer’s intercession as a priest that of the Blessed Virgin as a mother. It is a role she carries out for the sake of those who are in danger and who need temporal favours and, especially, eternal salvation: “By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix” (Lumen gentium, n. 62).

These titles, suggested by the faith of the Christian people, help us better to understand the nature of the Mother of the Lord’s intervention in the life of the Church and of the individual believer.

1. The title “Advocate” goes back to St Irenaeus. With regard to Eve’s disobedience and Mary’s obedience, he says that at the moment of the Annunciation “the Virgin Mary became the Advocate” of Eve (Haer. 5, 19, 1; PG 7, 1175-1176). In fact, with her “yes” she defended our first mother and freed her from the consequences of her disobedience, becoming the cause of salvation for her and the whole human race.

Mary exercises her role as “Advocate” by co-operating both with the Spirit the Paraclete and with the One who interceded on the Cross for his persecutors (cf. Lk 23:34), whom John calls our “advocate with the Father” (1 Jn 2:1). As a mother, she defends her children and protects them from the harm caused by their own sins.

Mary is close to those suffering or in danger

Christians call upon Mary as “Helper”, recognizing her motherly love which sees her children’s needs and is ready to come to their aid, especially when their eternal salvation is at stake.

The conviction that Mary is close to those who are suffering or in situations of serious danger has prompted the faithful to invoke her as “Benefactress”. The same trusting certainty is expressed in the most ancient Marian prayer with the words: “We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin” (from the Roman Breviary).

As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf.

---

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
1 October 1997, page 11

Peace

 

[Classicist]

Fevronia,

I am not trying to make some anti-European point about Imperialism. I am of English extraction myself, and am in favour of Colonialism.

My point was simply that the Luke-Painting account might not be as reliable a story as we think it is. For one, if Luke was a trained artist in the Roman Imperial period, he would have painted a three-dimensional within the styles of his day. The portrait(s) imagined to be painted by Luke are in a later, 4th, 5th, or 6th century style more typical of later icons, not of classical painting.

History has importance in authenticating stories. A lot of pious stuff should be contrasted with the real history of art, architecture, and theology.

I am not accusing you of lying or anything, just trying to make a point about “traditions”.

Hazcompat,

I’m afraid that’s a lot to take in at once. Please forgive me if I don’t reply immediately. It’s hard to disagree with a Pope, especially such a well-beloved one. CAF posters seem to like this tactic: if your opinion is disagreed with, find a Pope who agrees with it and post it. No one will go up against a Pope, and if they do they’re just disobedient.

 

[Fevronia]

Fevronia,

I am not trying to make some anti-European point about Imperialism. I am of English extraction myself, and am in favour of Colonialism.

My point was simply that the Luke-Painting account might not be as reliable a story as we think it is. For one, if Luke was a trained artist in the Roman Imperial period, he would have painted a three-dimensional within the styles of his day. The portrait(s) imagined to be painted by Luke are in a later, 4th, 5th, or 6th century style more typical of later icons, not of classical painting.

History has importance in authenticating stories. A lot of pious stuff should be contrasted with the real history of art, architecture, and theology.

I am not accusing you of lying or anything, just trying to make a point about “traditions”.

I think you are hung up on the picture. What is important is that their historical tradition exists. As for your objection for the particular issue with the picture, I am not even sure which portrait you are referring to because I don’t think they still have the original, do they?

All we know is the story. So maybe it was something that was consistent with the art style of that time. Or maybe St. Luke just painted using a different art style. Who knows? I am not sure that is relevant.

But the bigger point here is that they did receive Marian devotion from St. Thomas. For us to keep saying that they made it up is unfair. If we doubt them, then we must also doubt our own reasons for thinking the gospels were the work of Apostles and so forth. Since you clearly do not have such a standard, would it be reasonable to judge their own traditions in that way?

I am also not saying you are biased against imperialist. Rather, I am saying you are biased against the traditions of the local Indian peoples.

 

[Richca]

You know, people say that a lot, but never actually demonstrate how it works. One can really say anything about anyone leading to Christ. “Devotion to Peter always leads to devotion to Christ”. “Devotion to the Five Wounds always leads to devotion to Christ”. Saying an Ave or a Salve does not jump start us into talking to Christ. There is no absolute consequence that follows upon the action. Could traditionalists be a bit more scholastic and Thomistic about this… if only to explain it better?

One thing is true, and has zero examples to the contrary: devotion to Christ leads to devotion to Christ. Church Tradition is His, and no one else’s. How many simple, average people do you know that are 100% “consecrated” to Mary and are always holding rosaries, always praising Mary’s help, always kissing Mary’s statues - and who end up actually talking about Jesus at some point? It seems a rare thing. Devotion to Mary tends to lead to devotion to Mary, in my experience. You become so focused on addressing the “Portal to Christ” that you try to find greater and more poetic ways to address the Portal herself.

I don’t see how there’s an immediate correlation. This doesn’t mean I “reject Mary” or “hate Mary”, or am “anti-Mary”. I just like to know what I am doing, and to make sure it is right.

Hi Classicist,
You raise some good questions especially the question how does the consecration to Mary work? Has anybody ever demonstated this?
Saints such as St Louis de Montfort and St Maximilian Kolbe (there are plenty of other saints who were devotees of Mary) show that consecration to Mary does lead to sanctity for they have been canonized by the Church.
St Louis de Montfort demonstrates the theological basis of devotion to Mary in his book “True Devotion to Mary.” St Maximilian Kolbe also demonstrates this in his writings. One such theological truth according to them, and although it has not been solemnly defined by the Church, yet it is a part of the doctrinal patrimony of the Church for a number of popes have mentioned it in their encyclicals, is Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. St Maximilian Kolbe says that all graces come to us from the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit and the Immaculata. The Immaculata is the instrument by which the Holy Spirit dispenses all graces given to mankind. Now, it is indespensible that we need God’s grace to live out our Christian vocation and perform meritorious acts conducive to eternal life. St Maximilian Kolbe says that we should petition God for His grace by the same channel by which He dispenses it, that is, Our Lady.

I am not going to go into a detailed discussion on why St Louis de Montfort, St Maximilian Kolbe, St Bernard, and others have said that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. I refer you to Montfort’s book on “True Devotion to Mary” and Kolbe’s writings, or google it. The fact is that the Church has never said that this doctrine is heretical and as I have mentioned above, some popes have mentioned it in their encyclicals. Blessed Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical on the Rosary (it may have been another encyclical, I forget off hand), says that he took the teaching of St Louis de Montfort on devotion to Mary as his own and he recommends Montfort’s teaching to anyone who wants to be truly devoted or consecrated to Mary.

The Knights of the Immaculata and Marytown, both founded by St Maximilian Kolbe, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. The Church, of course, formally approved the foundation of both The Knights of the Immaculata and the Marytowns. In doing so, the Church formally approves the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces. At the very least, the Church is saying it is not heretical.

Now, how does true devotion to Mary and consecration to her work? Firstly, we should understand that the life of grace in us is imperceptible most times. Though God and Our Lady are constantly pouring into our souls grace, this is imperceptible to us most times but true none the less.
If we consecrate ourselves to Mary and persevere in it, St Louis de Montfort says that Mary will communicate her spirit to us. Now, if we ask what is Mary’s spirit or interior life like, the saints tell us that she is more Godlike than any other creature that God has created or will create. Mary is more Godlike than the Seraphim and Cherubim, she is the masterpiece of God’s creation. St Thomas Aquinas says that of three things God could not have done greater, one is conferring on Mary the dignity of being the Mother of God.

Mary is full of the love of God, the love of Christ, and the love of neighbor. She possesses all the virtures in an eminent degree as no other creature does or ever will. There is nothing in Mary but God. Mary is the Sovereign Queen of heaven and earth. She is the worthy and immaculate Mother of the Son of God. And just as at the wedding in Cana Jesus performed His first miracle at the humble request of Mary, even now Jesus does not deny any requests His dear mother asks of Him in heaven, for her will is one with His. It has pleased God that at the commands of Mary heaven, earth, and hell bend for good will or bad will.

Blessed are we if Mary gives us but a portion of her spirit.

 

[Richca]

Thanks for the response Brother…

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Going to Christ through Mary is one route… not the only route. This belief in no way diminishes Mary’s role in salvation history.

What you are talking about really sounds like Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces which, as I mentioned previously, is not a teaching of the Church. Many hold that belief, though certainly not a majority. This piece of Marian devotion really falls in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be “Mediatrix of All Graces”, but is does not teach this today. The theological debate is far from over on this on topic and I think it is dangerous for you to declare it as a solemnly declared belief of the Catholic Church.

‘To Jesus only through Mary’ is not referenced in any of the iterations of the Catholic Catechism. Aside from this teaching being absent from the Catechism, the idea of ‘to Jesus only through Mary’ is absent from Lumen Gentium’s chapter on Mary. As an Apostolic Constitution, Lumen Gentium carries the highest weight of any Church teaching.

I have read much on this topic and will be happy to share more deeply. I’m also familiar with Marian devotion and teaching in the time of our Church Fathers and the first 500-600 years, so I think we can engage in discourse over that as well.

In Christ Jesus…
Dan

Hi GodisGood,
Though the doctrine of Mary, Mediatrix of all Graces may not have the status of a dogma such as the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption it can be found in official Church documents as well as taught by a number of her saints such as St Bernard, St Louis de Monfort,St Maximillan Kolbe, St Peter Canisius, St Alphonsus Liguori. I will cite just a few sources from Popes.

“From that great treasure of all graces, which the Lord brought,nothing, according to the will of God, comes to us except throught Mary, so that, as nobody can approach the Supreme Father except through the Son, similarly nobody can approach Christ except through the Mother” ( Pope Leo XIII, Rosary Encyclical “Octobri mense,” 1891).

“All gifts which the Author of all good has deigned to communicate to the unhappy posterity of Adam, are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin” (Pope Benedict XV, AAS 9, 1917)

Mary is the “mediatrix with God of all graces” (Pope Benedict XV, AAS 11, 1919)

“Thus is it God’s will that we should have everything through Mary” ( Pope Pius XI, Encyclical “Ingravescentibus malis” 1937, here Pope Pius XI quotes the words of St Bernard with approval).

“for God wished us to have everything through Mary” (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical “Mediator Dei” 1947)

Mary is the “dispenser of all gifts, which Jesus has acquired for us by His death and His blood” (Pope Pius X, Denziger 1978 a)

 

[godisgood77]

Hi Classicist,
The Knights of the Immaculata and Marytown, both founded by St Maximilian Kolbe, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. The Church, of course, formally approved the foundation of both The Knights of the Immaculata and the Marytowns. In doing so, the Church formally approves the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces. At the very least, the Church is saying it is not heretical.

I made reference to this title earlier as I was certain that we would end up in the “Mediatrix of all Graces” discussion as these two ideas are closely linked if not the same…

I’ll be succinct and reference another thread where this was debated thoroughly. The short of it is that Church does not teach that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces

The Fathers of the 2nd Vatican Council very purposefully omitted it from the Apostolic Constitution Lumen Gentium which carries the highest weight of all Church teaching. Further, the last formal act on this title was a Mariological commission formed in 1996 at the request of the Holy See to explore this topic and that it was unanimously decided that it should not be declared that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces.

My understanding is that some Catholics give her this title, but that Church does not. I know that there has been a handful of Popes that have used this title in talks, but never declared this formally. Further, I believe there is a petition to dogmatically declare this, but that only about 8 million signatures have been gathered.

Visit this thread to see more detail…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=787176

 

[godisgood77]

Hi all…

I wanted to provide an excerpt from a book I started rereading this morning on my long flight from Chicago to Phoenix as I found it apropos for this ongoing discussion…It is from the Book “The Assumption of Mary” by Kilian Healy, O. Carm… a very well respect dogmatic theologian. He worked closely with Father Eamon R. Carroll, O. Carm who was the General Editor of The Mary Library.

I recommend this book to all who have interest in Mary. I reference Chapter Six - The Assumption and the Pilgrim Church in the Intercession section

First, from page 93…
*
There is not doubt that there is only one mediator between God and all people, Jesus the Lord. The Second Vatican Council emphasizes this truth lest there be any doubt in the minds of those who wish to know the true Catholic Faith. Christ alone reconciles us to the Father by his death and resurrection. No other agent reconciles us with God, and there is no other who is a coequal mediator or redeemer with Him. He stands alone as the one who brings peace between heaven and Earth.*

Pg 94 at the bottom of the page

He is talking the declaration from VII in Lumen Gentium *"…the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the title Advocate, Auxiliatrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that that they neither take away from nor add anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one mediator."

If this is so, how can we speak of other mediators or in the case of Mary, a mediatrix? The presence of a sole mediator does not rule out others who may cooperate with Christ, not as equals, not as necessary but in subordinate and dependent roles.
*
**He goes on to say…**Unfortunately, these titles have not always been clearly understood. Mary’s heavenly ministry is not to be conceived as if she were the door that must be opened before we meet Christ, or the bridge to be crossed before encountering Him. No. We enter directly in to union with the Lord through the Spirit, and without doubt many Christians meet Christ daily in their prayer and work without even a thought of our Lady in heaven. By intercession we understand, as referenced above, that in the first place Mary in her glorious Assumption prays for us, as do all the saints in heaven who are one with Christ and one with us through the Spirit. Her intercession assists us as we enter into immediate communion with Christ. We have no experience of how Mary and the saints par except that living in communion with the Blessed Trinity in the unending joy, and loving us, they pray for our entrance in to glory.

I would say that Healy’s description more closely aligns with how I think of the Blessed Mother and I do not believe that my devotion to her in this way diminishes her special place in Salvation History nor do I hold any disdain for those that have differing personal devotions…

 

[Michael_Francis]

---

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee do we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise****** not****** our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen. ***

 

[Church_Militant]

---

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee do we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise****** not****** our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen. ***

 

[hazcompat]

John 14: 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?

Use your imagination. See yourself in the great assembly. Your vision of God is unobscured. Your place perfectly yours. Your joy complete. Your eyes like the eyes of a slave on the hand of your Lord (Ps 123). Your God and King has no need that you bring Him the prayers of those you love. For your bliss He permits(wills) you to participate in the order of grace, the communion of saints.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels. We are so easily called away. You can circumvent the saints. No one stands between you and God. We are saying, it is Our Father’s simple plan that we share in His dearly beloved Son’s Kingdom. This is all for the greater glory of God the Father. Mary is first in the order of grace. All of her children share her joy.Ask that your loving mother bring your cause to her Son. See what happens!

Peace

 

[mathematoons]

Something went terribly wrong if that’s where you ended up, because that’s not the normal outcome for those who follow the spirituality of St. Louis, just look at St. Maximilian Kolbe and Bl. John Paul II. They were both ardent disciples of St. Louis.

Were you guided by someone who knew and understood St. Louis’ work? Sometimes that helps, provided the person really understand St. Louis. If they don’t understand, then they lead one to a dead end street where one doesn’t really have a Marian devotion, because all Marian devotion leads to Christ. There is nothing about Mary that is not Christocentric. Everything about her speaks of the glory of her Son.

If a person says that they have a Marian devotion or Marian spirituality, which ever they call it, but they don’t have a sense of closeness to Jesus, then it’s not Marian. It’s externally Marian, because they’re going through the right motions, but something went wrong somewhere. Very often it’s not the person’s fault. Things do go wrong in the spiritual life, hence the importance of a spiritual director who is trained in spiritual direction or who has a natural gift for it. A good spiritual director should be able to discern the spirits and lead one through the process of discernment and prayer.

Remember, a good spiritual director need not be a priest. There are deacons, sisters, religious brothers, and laymen or laywomen who are trained and highly skilled spiritual directors. If one’s priest is not a good spiritual director or is not trained in the spiritual life, there are other people who are. It is a false assumption that all priests are trained in the spiritual life. Priests are all trained in moral theology and pastoral counseling. Spiritual Theology is an elective in some seminaries. You can choose between Spiritual Theology and Pastoral Counseling. It depends on the seminary and the major in which the seminarian is working on.

This is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you so much. I have the exact same issue as De_Montfort, but when I brought it up on this board, all I got was laughed at.

It’s probably for the same reason: there is no one in my area who can help with these things.

 

[Fevronia]

I made reference to this title earlier as I was certain that we would end up in the “Mediatrix of all Graces” discussion as these two ideas are closely linked if not the same…

I’ll be succinct and reference another thread where this was debated thoroughly. The short of it is that Church does not teach that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces

The Fathers of the 2nd Vatican Council very purposefully omitted it from the Apostolic Constitution Lumen Gentium which carries the highest weight of all Church teaching. Further, the last formal act on this title was a Mariological commission formed in 1996 at the request of the Holy See to explore this topic and that it was unanimously decided that it should not be declared that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces.

My understanding is that some Catholics give her this title, but that Church does not. I know that there has been a handful of Popes that have used this title in talks, but never declared this formally. Further, I believe there is a petition to dogmatically declare this, but that only about 8 million signatures have been gathered.

Visit this thread to see more detail…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=787176

When you speak of “Lumen Gentium” and Vatican II documents, are you speaking of them alone or their footnotes and references included?

Mary “Mediatrix of all Graces” is doctrine of the Church as far as I know (confirmed by repeated teachings of the ordinary magesterium). It is not Dogmatic but that does not mean it is non-infallible.

The petition is for its Dogmatic pronunciation so that the faithful will be reminded again that they need to turn to her for help in these troubled times. Marian devotions in most of the countries where the faith has dwindled is abysmal (perhaps an interesting correlation). Many hope that the Dogma will put things back on track again since there are many priests and theologians who continue to oppose the idea of Mary mediatrix of all Graces.

 

[TimothyH]

When you speak of “Lumen Gentium” and Vatican II documents, are you speaking of them alone or their footnotes and references included?

Mary “Mediatrix of all Graces” is doctrine of the Church as far as I know (confirmed by repeated teachings of the ordinary magesterium). It is not Dogmatic but that does not mean it is non-infallible.

The petition is for its Dogmatic pronunciation so that the faithful will be reminded again that they need to turn to her for help in these troubled times. Marian devotions in most of the countries where the faith has dwindled is abysmal (perhaps an interesting correlation). Many hope that the Dogma will put things back on track again since there are many priests and theologians who continue to oppose the idea of Mary mediatrix of all Graces.

Regarding the bold/red, that is an interesting thought and something I have pondered.

We often hear that there is a crisis in the faith and that it is rooted in a liturgical crisis. If there is a crisis in the faith, I think that it is rather a crisis in reliance on the Immaculate as our helper.

This gets right back at the heart of Brother Jay’s original post. Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition. Other than the Eucharist itself, there is nothing more traditional that placing oneself in the hands of our Mother and trusting that she will take our needs to her Son. Doing so spans all rites of the Church and predates any form of the Mass. It is as universal as the Church itself.

I really do think that any crisis in the faith, if there is a crisis, is rooted in a lapse of devotion to the Blessed Mother, and in outright denial, sometimes violently, of our need for her assistance.

-Tim-

 

[johnnyc176]

We often hear that there is a crisis in the faith and that it is rooted in a liturgical crisis. If there is a crisis in the faith, I think that it is rather a **crisis in reliance on the Immaculate as our helper. **

Couldn’t it be also said that where the EF is celebrated neither is a concern?

 

[clem456]

This is such a counter-intuitive idea for me still. We are taught to talk directly to “the man”, so to speak.

But then, the incarnation is very radical. God takes on human flesh, becomes a human being with all that entails.
He is dependent on others for his needs. Starting with his mother, where he receives his flesh, his sustenance, his up-bringing, a safe and peaceful home. Amazing that God incarnate could not walk or talk or provide for his own needs.

He also is obedient! To Mary, to his father, and his Father, to his calling. Or are they obedient to one another? I don’t know.

If Jesus himself models that life, it must be appropriate for me to follow, including listening to and asking his mother. But it does take some praying and thinking to accept that I don’t have a clear line of communication with God.

Christianity is a very radical thing.

 

[godisgood77]

Couldn’t it be also said that where the EF is celebrated neither is a concern?

Only if you’re ok basing your statements on a “hunch”…in both cases…

 

[JReducation]

Couldn’t it be also said that where the EF is celebrated neither is a concern?

That’s not always true. That would mean that the other forms of the mass do not integrate Mary into the liturgy. That’s not true. It would also mean that those forms where Mary’s role in the liturgy is expressed more have less issues with crises of faith.

The Eastern and Orthodox Churches have not done much to their liturgy and they also are seeing declining numbers. The crisis of faith is a product of a cultural shift that hit us like two tectonic plates colliding at high speed.

 

[TimothyH]

Couldn’t it be also said that where the EF is celebrated neither is a concern?

I don’t know. You have to tell me. I really don’t know.

Is devotion to the Blessed Mother integral with the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Or does the Extraordinary Form of the Mass foster greater devotion to the Blessed Mother?

There have been traditionalists on CAF who have violently denied our need for the Blessed Mother’s assistance.

Maybe I’m not understanding your question.