Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition

[johnnyc176]

Only if you’re ok basing your statements on a “hunch”…in both cases…

Only in my limited experience which is why I phrased it as a question. I’ve lived in a number of parishes. Where the EF is celebrated there were always prayers after Mass consisting of intercessory prayers to our Blessed Mother. I have not seen that in the OF parishes. Again…only my observation.

 

[simple_soul]

What helps me understand and envision how Jesus comes to us through the Blessed Mother Mary is by looking at how the sun comes to us through the sky.
When we look at the sun from here on earth it would seem like it is this side of the ozone layer but its not. The sun as we all know is on the outside and if we did not have the ozone layer we would be fried. I beleive God needed to come to us in a similar way. If He came to us directly we would be pulverized. In order for us to see the face of God He had to be transformed into one of us and He did this through Our Blessed Mother. So just like the sun is filtered by the ozone layer/sky so that we do not die so Our Lord God comes to us through Mary so that we can see the face of God and not die.
I see God coming to us through Mary so that He can take us by the hand and take us back to heaven with Him through Mary. She is the Perpetual Mother and He is our Perpetual Savior.

Think of how the light from the sun works. It comes to us and if we trace it back to the sunlights source we have to travel through the ozone to get there and we have to be equipped properly in order to go past the ozone and survive. I see Our Blessed Mother Mary as being the one to equip us so that we can pass through her to God. You could take this analogy further and think of the whole earth up to the ozone as being the woumb of the Blessed Mother. She lets us learn from her and use her resources so that we can survive past the ozone. And the greatest and most importand resourse she has is Her Son whom is in her womb with us and wih whom she nurishes us with. Now all this has to be understood with the understanding that everything she has to help us and equip us is givin to from God and that she would be nothing with out Him and I am sure she would be the first to let you know that. It’s like everything she has to help us is from God and we let her mold us so that we can be ready to go to God for eternity.

Ok I think I am kind of rambling here now. Not sure how well that works for an analogy bit hope it made some sense…I just beleive it helps me understand it all better so I thought I would share…I am sure it needs some tweeks but hope and pray it is not too far off base…

 

[godisgood77]

Regarding the bold/red, that is an interesting thought and something I have pondered.

We often hear that there is a crisis in the faith and that it is rooted in a liturgical crisis. If there is a crisis in the faith, I think that it is rather a crisis in reliance on the Immaculate as our helper.

This gets right back at the heart of Brother Jay’s original post. Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition. Other than the Eucharist itself, there is nothing more traditional that placing oneself in the hands of our Mother and trusting that she will take our needs to her Son. **Doing so spans all rites of the Church and predates any form of the Mass. It is as universal as the Church itself. **

I really do think that any crisis in the faith, if there is a crisis, is rooted in a lapse of devotion to the Blessed Mother, and in outright denial, sometimes violently, of our need for her assistance.

-Tim-

Hi Tim,

I do not think I agree with the bolder pieces above, but can be shown otherwise. I don’t think that " placing oneself in the of our Mother" predates the Mass. In fact, I don’t believe there was much devotion to Mary until the fifth century with the Theotokos definition. Can you recommend any reading?

I’m really curious about this idea of a lapsed devotion to Mary causing a crisis in faith. Especially a violent one… I’ve lived in Rochester, NY (one of the most liberal diocese in the country), Denver, and IL and have never witnessed a void when it comes to Mary. Additionally, I travel the US extensively and have had the opportunity to attend mass in MA, FL, GA, TX, TN, NM, ID, PA, MN, AZ, CA, OR, WA and Maryland in my travels (I love the find a mass app). I can say that I haven’t seen a void in Marian devotion. Can you point me to a time where there was violence in rejecting Marian devotion?

 

[hazcompat]

Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All

Jesus, my Lord, my God, my all!
How can I love Thee as I ought?
And how revere this wondrous gift,
So far surpassing hope or thought?

Refrain:
Sweet Sacrament, we Thee adore!
Oh, make us love Thee more and more.
Oh, make us love Thee more and more.

1. Had I but Mary’s sinless heart
   With which to love Thee, dearest King,
   Oh, with what ever fervent praise,
   Thy goodness, Jesus, would I sing!

 

[JamesCaruso]

The Father.

Jesus is our mediator with the Father. He is our advocate with the Father. He leads us to the Father. The Father does not lead us to himself. Mary, on the other hand, is the means through whom Jesus came to us. It is through Mary that we have Jesus. Who better then, than Mary to lead us to her son? The Church calls her our Mediatrix. Whereas Jesus leads us to the Father and is our advocate with the Father, Mary leads us to Jesus and is our advocate with Jesus. Me? I am trying to lead you to Mary, because she is our Mom, and we are Jesus’ brothers and sisters. I am trying to point out to you the obvious, that no one knows Jesus better than our Mom who bore him, changed his diapers, and raised him into manhood. If you want to know Jesus, go to Mary. She will teach you. If you want to be like Jesus, go to Mary, she will raise you into manhood or womanhood, spiritually speaking, just as she raised Jesus. If God trusted Mary to raise His only begotten Son, why can’t you trust her to raise you, to teach you, to mold you into the image of Jesus whom she molded before you? There is nothing illogical about Mary’s role for Christians. It is common sense.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim,

I do not think I agree with the bolder pieces above, but can be shown otherwise. I don’t think that " placing oneself in the of our Mother" predates the Mass. In fact, I don’t believe there was much devotion to Mary until the fifth century with the Theotokos definition. Can you recommend any reading?

I’m really curious about this idea of a lapsed devotion to Mary causing a crisis in faith. Especially a violent one… I’ve lived in Rochester, NY (one of the most liberal diocese in the country), Denver, and IL and have never witnessed a void when it comes to Mary. Additionally, I travel the US extensively and have had the opportunity to attend mass in MA, FL, GA, TX, TN, NM, ID, PA, MN, AZ, CA, OR, WA and Maryland in my travels (I love the find a mass app). I can say that I haven’t seen a void in Marian devotion. Can you point me to a time where there was violence in rejecting Marian devotion?

Today is that time. All we have to do is look at this thread to see those who bristle at suggestion that they place themselves under the patronage of the the Blessed Mother.

The idea of a God working through a woman to save Israel, of assuming the role of a protective mother who brings salvation to God’s people is rooted in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament stories of Deborah and Judith, all the elders and military leaders all stop and listen intently, drop their plans and let the woman act, trusting in her holiness and faith to save Israel where they themselves were reluctant or afraid.

Also look at 2 Maccabees 7, the story of the mother of the seven sons.

This is the perspective of the first Jewish Christians - the strong woman as protector of Israel, the Mother who encourages her son in his mission protects her children. Israel’s devotion to the strong women who brings salvation to the people predates Christ.

The reading I would recommend is not anything outside of the Bible, but rather a study of the cultural place of the strong woman in Old Testament scripture and an understanding of the role of the mother of the king in ancient Israel. These the first Jewish Christians would have brought into Christianity to understand Christ and his Mother’s role in our salvation.

-Tim-

 

[godisgood77]

Today is that time. All we have to do is look at this thread to see those who bristle at suggestion that they place themselves under the patronage of the the Blessed Mother.

The idea of a God working through a woman to save Israel, of assuming the role of a protective mother who brings salvation to God’s people is rooted in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament stories of Deborah and Judith, all the elders and military leaders all stop and listen intently, drop their plans and let the woman act, trusting in her holiness and faith to save Israel where they themselves were reluctant or afraid.

Also look at 2 Maccabees 7, the story of the mother of the seven sons.

This is the perspective of the first Jewish Christians - the strong woman as protector of Israel, the Mother who encourages her son in his mission protects her children. Israel’s devotion to the strong women who brings salvation to the people predates Christ.

The reading I would recommend is not anything outside of the Bible, but rather a study of the cultural place of the strong woman in Old Testament scripture and an understanding of the role of the mother of the king in ancient Israel. These the first Jewish Christians would have brought into Christianity to understand Christ and his Mother’s role in our salvation.

-Tim-

Fair enough… you were being sensational for effect. There has certainly been no violence in this thread. Seems to me that there have been rational, logical, biblical and orthodox beliefs that have been put forward as counter to some other ideas that were put forward as fact. I believe we are all called to speak up… just because someone holds a differing opinion doesn’t make it violent…that’s a form of fascism, no?

I respect your personal devotion, but I must push back and say that I hope you can accept that fact that not all Catholics share this personal devotion. Forced homogenization of personal devotion is a scary thought…

 

[57Bill]

The idea of a God working through a woman to save Israel, of assuming the role of a protective mother who brings salvation to God’s people is rooted in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament stories of Deborah and Judith, all the elders and military leaders all stop and listen intently, drop their plans and let the woman act, trusting in her holiness and faith to save Israel where they themselves were reluctant or afraid.

Also look at 2 Maccabees 7, the story of the mother of the seven sons.

This is the perspective of the first Jewish Christians - the strong woman as protector of Israel, the Mother who encourages her son in his mission protects her children. Israel’s devotion to the strong women who brings salvation to the people predates Christ.

-Tim-

John’s Gospel with Mary at the wedding and at the foot of the Cross (IMO) bookends the above.

 

[Richca]

Hi all…

I wanted to provide an excerpt from a book I started rereading this morning on my long flight from Chicago to Phoenix as I found it apropos for this ongoing discussion…It is from the Book “The Assumption of Mary” by Kilian Healy, O. Carm… a very well respect dogmatic theologian. He worked closely with Father Eamon R. Carroll, O. Carm who was the General Editor of The Mary Library.

 

[godisgood77]

I’m not sure this statement is consistent with Revelation, the Fathers of the Church, the teaching of not a few saints and of Popes. God did not give His Son to the world except by the free consent of Mary. By Mary’s free consent to the incarnation of the Son of God, we have access to Christ and all the graces and gifts that Christ merited for us and which the Holy Spirit distributes to us. The same Mother that cooperated with the Holy Spirit in producing the head of the Mystical Body cooperates now with the Holy Spirit in producing the members of the Mystical Body. Thus the CCC calls Mary our Mother in the order of divine grace.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Richca;11211424:

Thanks Richca. We are very far apart in our spirituality my brother.

I would ask that you to back through the thread I linked earlier where the Mediatrix of All Graces question was debated thoroughly. It has never been authoritatively declared by the Church. If you can provide any reference, I would gladly accept it. The idea of what a mediatrix is has not even been defined. I understand that you have a belief and respect that…however as I mentioned earlier, the question was addressed in Lumen Gentium and again was formally addressed by a council formed by the Holy See in the late '90’s which unanimously decided not to declare Mary to be the Mediatrix of All Graces …it is still very theologically squishy, if you will. I am very much making the case that this is not Church teaching as in requiring the assent of all of the faithful.

Also, relative to the original topic…I still have not seen any authoritative Church teaching stating that we can only go to Christ through Maryt…I truly am not simply provoking here…I would gladly accept it, if it indeed exists.

I would love to take more time to provide a more thorough response, but am boarding a long flight from AZ back to IL now…I’ll be reading a book called “Mary - As the early Christians knew her”…I’ll say a prayer for all in this thread…

Praying as Jesus directed us to…

The term Mediatrix in itself could refer to either the objective redemption (the once-for-all earning a title to grace for all men), to the subjective redemption (the distribution of this grace to individual men), or to both. It is most usual to use it to refer only to subjective redemption, i.e. , the process of giving out the fruits of the objective redemption, throughout all centuries. We must consider whether or not the term Mediatrix applies to all graces or only to some. We will ask also about the nature of the mediation: is it only by way of intercession, that is, does Mary simply pray to her Son that he may give us grace, or does God also use her as an instrument in distributing grace.

To begin, we can say without doubt that the title “Mediatrix” is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary.

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

We notice that Vatican II did not add the words “of all graces.” However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

**Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible… **

Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces
by Father William G. Most

[boldface added by JamesCaruso]

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[Fevronia]

Hi Tim,

I do not think I agree with the bolder pieces above, but can be shown otherwise. I don’t think that " placing oneself in the of our Mother" predates the Mass. In fact, I don’t believe there was much devotion to Mary until the fifth century with the Theotokos definition. Can you recommend any reading?

I’m really curious about this idea of a lapsed devotion to Mary causing a crisis in faith. Especially a violent one… I’ve lived in Rochester, NY (one of the most liberal diocese in the country), Denver, and IL and have never witnessed a void when it comes to Mary. Additionally, I travel the US extensively and have had the opportunity to attend mass in MA, FL, GA, TX, TN, NM, ID, PA, MN, AZ, CA, OR, WA and Maryland in my travels (I love the find a mass app). I can say that I haven’t seen a void in Marian devotion. Can you point me to a time where there was violence in rejecting Marian devotion?

I have lived in many parts of Canada that show a terrible void in Marian devotion. If by Marian devotion, you mean the routine celebration of the obligatory feast days (even that is not done properly at times) and the call to imitate her, I agree with you that it takes place for the most part.

BUT, in terms of asking families to pray the rosary together, or speaking about her intercessory power, it is non-existent in entire diocese at times.

And sure enough, the faith is dwindling in almost all these parishes. More importantly, there is a lack of Catholic identity as a whole. Everything is based on a personal taste which is identified as being what the Lord would have thought of as well.

In short, what I see in general is absence of Marian devotion = absence of an understanding of the role of the Church. Again its not so much a coincidence considering that Mary is a “type” of the Church.

 

[Fevronia]

Fair enough… you were being sensational for effect. There has certainly been no violence in this thread. Seems to me that there have been rational, logical, biblical and orthodox beliefs that have been put forward as counter to some other ideas that were put forward as fact. I believe we are all called to speak up… just because someone holds a differing opinion doesn’t make it violent…that’s a form of fascism, no?

I respect your personal devotion, but I must push back and say that I hope you can accept that fact that not all Catholics share this personal devotion. Forced homogenization of personal devotion is a scary thought…

I assume by personal devotion you mean the concept of Mary as mediatrix of all graces?

The issue here is that this is not a matter of personal opinion. If the teaching is repeatedly taught, it becomes doctrine of the Church. All doctrine of the Church is infallible and is binding on the faithful. It doesn’t have to be raised to the level of Dogma to be binding on you to accept it. Dogma is the elevation of doctrine to say it has been directly revealed.

To be honest, when you insist that it is a private devotion, I start to understand why there is a push asking for the 5th Dogma. Although the Church (the Popes today) rightfully claim that the content of the 5th Dogma are already doctrine of the Church, most people just don’t want to believe it.

 

[Fevronia]

Thanks Richca. We are very far apart in our spirituality my brother.

I would ask that you to back through the thread I linked earlier where the Mediatrix of All Graces question was debated thoroughly. It has never been authoritatively declared by the Church. If you can provide any reference, I would gladly accept it. The idea of what a mediatrix is has not even been defined. I understand that you have a belief and respect that…however as I mentioned earlier, the question was addressed in Lumen Gentium and again was formally addressed by a council formed by the Holy See in the late '90’s which unanimously decided not to declare Mary to be the Mediatrix of All Graces …it is still very theologically squishy, if you will. I am very much making the case that this is not Church teaching as in requiring the assent of all of the faithful.

Also, relative to the original topic…I still have not seen any authoritative Church teaching stating that we can only go to Christ through Maryt…I truly am not simply provoking here…I would gladly accept it, if it indeed exists.

I would love to take more time to provide a more thorough response, but am boarding a long flight from AZ back to IL now…I’ll be reading a book called “Mary - As the early Christians knew her”…I’ll say a prayer for all in this thread…

Praying as Jesus directed us to…

Absence is not the same as “its not true” or “it has not been declared”. By your theory, Vatican II documents should contain every single bit of prior doctrine from before. That is not required.

To also point out another issue

(quoting EWTN link ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm)

"We notice that Vatican II did not add the words “of all graces.” However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible."

 

[Richca]

Richca;11211424:

Thanks Richca. We are very far apart in our spirituality my brother.

I would ask that you to back through the thread I linked earlier where the Mediatrix of All Graces question was debated thoroughly. It has never been authoritatively declared by the Church. If you can provide any reference, I would gladly accept it. The idea of what a mediatrix is has not even been defined. I understand that you have a belief and respect that…however as I mentioned earlier, the question was addressed in Lumen Gentium and again was formally addressed by a council formed by the Holy See in the late '90’s which unanimously decided not to declare Mary to be the Mediatrix of All Graces …it is still very theologically squishy, if you will. I am very much making the case that this is not Church teaching as in requiring the assent of all of the faithful.

Also, relative to the original topic…I still have not seen any authoritative Church teaching stating that we can only go to Christ through Maryt…I truly am not simply provoking here…I would gladly accept it, if it indeed exists.

I would love to take more time to provide a more thorough response, but am boarding a long flight from AZ back to IL now…I’ll be reading a book called “Mary - As the early Christians knew her”…I’ll say a prayer for all in this thread…

Praying as Jesus directed us to…

Hello Godisgood and I hope you have a safe flight back to IL and thank you for your prayers. I will offer some prayers for you as well, God knows we all need them.

The commission that you mention in the late '90’s didn’t say that Mary is not the Mediatrix of All Graces. From what I understand, they decided that the time was not opportune for declaring Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces a dogma.

Now you say that the Church has never authoritatively declared that all graces pass through Mary’s hands. I’m just curious as to what you think of the list compiled by Fr. Most on the EWTN website concerning Mary’s mediation. The list is statements from the popes in encyclicals, letters, etc. Do you not see this in any way authoritative?
Here’s a link to the list: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

As I said in a previous post, though I believe the doctrine of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces is true and is taught by the Church, I am unsure as to whether one has to assent to it with Catholic faith at the present time. So I’m not trying to impose my belief on you. It does appear that the Church presently is not requiring the solemn assent of all the faithful on the matter or I don’t think we would be having this discussion. For I think you would assent to the truth of the doctrine if the Church made it clear that we should.

In Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Richca

 

[Fevronia]

As I said in a previous post, though I believe the doctrine of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces is true and is taught by the Church, I am unsure as to whether one has to assent to it with Catholic faith at the present time. So I’m not trying to impose my belief on you. It does appear that the Church presently is not requiring the solemn assent of all the faithful on the matter or I don’t think we would be having this discussion. For I think you would assent to the truth of the doctrine if the Church made it clear that we should.

From what I understand, the Church requires assent to all its doctrines, not just the Dogmas. The “Mary Mediatrix of all Graces” is doctrine because it has been repeated multiple times and is therefore also infallible.

Some of the encyclicals in the list by Fr. William Most you cited are also cited in the footnotes of the Lumen Gentium passage on Mary (as Fr. Most points out in the link I cited).

 

[mathematoons]

What isn’t being discussed much is that not everyone does well with Marian devotion. I tried to have that strong devotion the saints had, because they say it leads to Jesus. It failed. The way I know it failed is because I fell away from the purity I had managed to maintain for years. Let’s just say that any closeness with an unrelated woman (Mary is our mother by adoption, and I converted at 26) is a problem for me (please take my word for it, I’d rather not talk about my sinful past). I thought Mary would be the exception. I was wrong.

I still have a devotion to her. I honor her, I believe all the dogmas, and I pray the Rosary every day. But I don’t buy into the “no one comes to Jesus except through Mary” bit, because nothing in the Bible or Church teaching says I’ll be damned for not relaying everything through Mary like some saints preached.

 

[Fevronia]

What isn’t being discussed much is that not everyone does well with Marian devotion. I tried to have that strong devotion the saints had, because they say it leads to Jesus. It failed. The way I know it failed is because I fell away from the purity I had managed to maintain for years. Let’s just say that any closeness with an unrelated woman (Mary is our mother by adoption, and I converted at 26) is a problem for me (please take my word for it, I’d rather not talk about my sinful past). I thought Mary would be the exception. I was wrong.

I still have a devotion to her. I honor her, I believe all the dogmas, and I pray the Rosary every day. But I don’t buy into the “no one comes to Jesus except through Mary” bit, because nothing in the Bible or Church teaching says I’ll be damned for not relaying everything through Mary like some saints preached.

So your objection boils down to saying the following. I know people are suppossed to grow closer to ones mother but I cannot make a distinction between a mother and a woman with respect to purity (when its not my actual mother) I can see a person with Gay tendencies saying something like I cannot draw closer to Jesus because anyone other than my biological father (or brother) is tempting to me. What do you think of that sort of reasoning? Where do you think the problem lies? Is it with the devotion or with the person claiming these things?

Also, for most people, Mary is seen as a mother BEFORE they start their devotions. So to clarify, it appears that you were under the impression that the devotions will lead you to feel her as your mother rather than…something else (I hope you are kidding). That is unfortunately not how Marian devotions work. Marian devotions do not lead you to “feel” a proper way toward Mary. You should already know the difference between MOTHER and a normal woman.

 

[mathematoons]

So your objection boils down to saying the following. I know people are suppossed to grow closer to ones mother but I cannot make a distinction between a mother and a woman with respect to purity (when its not my actual mother) I can see a person with Gay tendencies saying something like I cannot draw closer to Jesus because anyone other than my biological father (or brother) is tempting to me. What do you think of that sort of reasoning? Where do you think the problem lies? Is it with the devotion or with the person claiming these things?

Also, for most people, Mary is seen as a mother BEFORE they start their devotions. So to clarify, it appears that you were under the impression that the devotions will lead you to feel her as your mother rather than…something else (I hope you are kidding). That is unfortunately not how Marian devotions work. Marian devotions do not lead you to “feel” a proper way toward Mary. You should already know the difference between MOTHER and a normal woman.

I knew what I said would be twisted beyond recognition. I dont have that kind of feeling for Mary. What I’m saying is that I have issues with all women except my mother. I’m too stupid to overcome them on my own, and if you insist that I’m going to Hell over it, then that’s your problem. I have a lot of hostile things I’d like to say to you for what you’re implying, but because I want to be a good Catholic, I won’t say them.

I agree that the problem is with me, but it’s not because of anything I’m doing; it’s because I’m an idiot. (That i expected a charitable response to what I said is proof of this.) I know this. No one ever went to Hell for being an idiot.

I shouldn’t have posted on this thread.

 

[Fevronia]

I knew what I said would be twisted beyond recognition. I dont have that kind of feeling for Mary. What I’m saying is that I have issues with all women except my mother. I’m too stupid to overcome them on my own, and if you insist that I’m going to Hell over it, then that’s your problem. I have a lot of hostile things I’d like to say to you for what you’re implying, but because I want to be a good Catholic, I won’t say them.

I agree that the problem is with me, but it’s not because of anything I’m doing; it’s because I’m an idiot. (That i expected a charitable response to what I said is proof of this.) I know this. No one ever went to Hell for being an idiot.

I shouldn’t have posted on this thread.

I apologize. I truly am sorry. I in no way meant to be hurtful. I honestly thought that is what you meant when you said you had issues.

I also do not agree or state that you are going to hell over it. Each has its struggles. So you just have to work on them and I am sure things will improve.

What I did want to say is that your case cannot be a reason to reject the efficacy of Marian devotions. You seem to be a special case that is like the cases I described in my first reply. Also, have you read something like True Devotion to Mary by St. Montfort? It might help you in someway.

I also do not know what “issues” you have with women. Is it like you start fights with them? How do these issues materialize between you and Mary? Not trying to judge here. Just understand where you are coming from.