Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition

[godisgood77]

Could you point me to where it is written that all graces do not flow through Mary.

Saint Paul says it…

1 Tm 2:1-8
Beloved:
First of all, I ask that supplications, prayers,
petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
for kings and for all in authority,
that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life
in all devotion and dignity.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
who wills everyone to be saved
and to come to knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,
who gave himself as ransom for all.
This was the testimony at the proper time.
For this I was appointed preacher and apostle
— I am speaking the truth, I am not lying —,
teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

 

[simple_soul]

Completely agree…this is what I’m seeing as well - deification of Mary.

Well there are some Church Fathers who have said that God became man so that man could become god but I do not believe it is that we will be independent of Him. It is more like we become a part ofHim in some capacity or another and I believe it is because we allow God to completely sustain and flow through us verses us working independently of Him but then again I am probably missing something…but in seeing it this way I understand how Jesus is the one who takes us into the family of the Trinity.

 

[simple_soul]

Hi simple soul,
You make a good point. I think whether we say that Mary dispenses graces as she wishes or whether we say that Mary dispenses graces as God wishes is one and the same thing. Since sanctity and holiness consists in the union of our will with the will of God and our Blessed Mother is the holiest of creatures, her will is one with God. Mary does nothing contrary to God’s will. St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse, is inexpressible.
When we consider our Blessed Lady as Mediatrix and Mediatrix of All Graces, I think it is in the context as being the handmaid of the Lord, the servant of the Lord and His instrument. Our Lady lovingly accepted the role of being our Mother when she freely consented to the incarnation of the Son of God and cooperated with her Divine Son in the redemption of the human race. I think we can apply the words of Jesus to Mary when He said that He came not to be served but to serve.
Our Blessed Mother, however, is not a mechanical Mediatrix. She is a creature with a mother’s heart, a free will (though her will is one with God’s) and intellect. Maybe this is why the saints and popes say that Mary is the minister and dispensatrix of all the graces and gifts that Jesus merited for us.
This is what St Maximilian Kolbe has to say about our Blessed Mother:
“The Holy Spirit does not confer any grace, the Father does not give supernatural life to any soul by the Son and the Holy Spirit, unless these gifts are bestowed through the Mediatrix of All Graces, the Immaculata, who cooperates in the giving, and distributes them as she wills. She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills.”

So basically he is saying that The Immaclata is perpetually willing her will to God’s and in so doing this she is Perpetually bringing God and His Graces to us because she wills to let God and His Graces Perpetually come to us through herself because she willed to let God Come to us through herself not because God forced her to allow Himself to come to us through her.
She is so in tuned to God that she just wills Him to move through her at will when ever and for whom ever following His every prompting perpetually and because she allows it and not because God is forcing himself and His Will on her but because she wills to let Him work through her Perpetually.
Is this correct?

 

[TimothyH]

Saint Paul says it…
There is also one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus is the “one” mediator between God and man because he is both God and man. He is in the unique position to stand between God and man. As both God and man he stands in the breach between God and man, spanning the gap between God and man.

Jesus is mediator of a covenant, just like Moses was. Moses was a great mediator, going up and down the mountain bringing God’s proposals to the people and bringing the people’s response to God. Moses does this at least five times, up and down the mountain mediating the covenant between God and man. That is one of Mose’s claims to fame, that he mediated a covenant between God and man, and one of the reasons why the Jews revered Moses. If you look in your Bible at Exodus 20, it might even have the heading, “Moses accepted as Mediator”. Galatians 3:19:20 speaks about Moses’ mediation.

We know that the covenant Moses mediated is imperfect. It is imperfect because Moses is only a man. There are many mediators in the Bible. Jesus is the “one” mediator, the perfect mediator of a perfect covenant because he alone, “the man”, is also God.

None of this excludes Mary as mediatrix of Grace.

-Tim-

 

[JamesCaruso]

Of coarse there is no coercion!
Do you really beleive there are some people who beleive that it is by coercion?

What I am getting from what you are writing and having a hard time trying to wrap my brain around is that you seem to be saying she works independently of God. Even though she is doing His Will she does so independently of Him.

Is this what you are saying?

If we believe that free will is anything other than our independent action of choosing between obedience to God and sin, then it is to some extent, no matter how small, coerced. Free will is truly our free and independent action. This is not to say that we cannot be influenced by God. God may influence us by inspiration and by illumination. But in the end, we are free to choose to accept or reject His inspirations and enlightenments.

So, does Mary act independently of God? By the act of her free will, by her free act of love, no. But it is always her decision, and in that sense alone do I mean “independent”.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The Legion of Mary recites a prayer each day that addresses both Mediator and Mediatrix:

Lord Jesus Christ, our Mediator with the Father, you have been pleased to appoint the Most Blessed Virgin, your Mother, to be our Mother, also, and our Mediatrix with you. Mercifully grant that whoever comes to you seeking your favors, may rejoice to receive all of them through her, Amen.

 

[simple_soul]

If we believe that free will is anything other than our independent action of choosing between obedience to God and sin, then it is to some extent, no matter how small, coerced. Free will is truly our free and independent action. This is not to say that we cannot be influenced by God. God may influence us by inspiration and by illumination. But in the end, we are free to choose to accept or reject His inspirations and enlightenments.

So, does Mary act independently of God? By the act of her free will, by her free act of love, no. But it is always her decision, and in that sense alone do I mean “independent”.

Thank you so much for clarifying this I believe this is most definitely not how I was understanding what you were saying.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Jesus is the “one” mediator between God and man because he is both God and man. He is in the unique position to stand between God and man. As both God and man he stands in the breach between God and man, spanning the gap between God and man.

Jesus is mediator of a covenant, just like Moses was. Moses was a great mediator, going up and down the mountain bringing God’s proposals to the people and bringing the people’s response to God. Moses does this at least five times, up and down the mountain mediating the covenant between God and man. That is one of Mose’s claims to fame, that he mediated a covenant between God and man, and one of the reasons why the Jews revered Moses. If you look in your Bible at Exodus 20, it might even have the heading, “Moses accepted as Mediator”. Galatians 3:19:20 speaks about Moses’ mediation.

We know that the covenant Moses mediated is imperfect. It is imperfect because Moses is only a man. There are many mediators in the Bible. Jesus is the “one” mediator, the perfect mediator of a perfect covenant because he alone, “the man”, is also God.

None of this excludes Mary as mediatrix of Grace.

-Tim-

She is uniquely mediator (trix) not between mankind and the Father, as Jesus is, but between mankind and Jesus, her Son. I think it is a distinction worth making. The relationship of Son to Father is one of child to parent, while the relationship of Mother to Son is one of parent to child, just the opposite. One is perfect man to perfect Father, the other, perfect woman to perfect Son, or so it appears to me.

Also, I do not understand, but I believe, that Mary has “influence” with her Son, for want of a better term, as demonstrated at the wedding feast at Cana. Theologians will have to explain how this works; I only accept it as a teaching I have heard repeatedly from representatives of the Church, both priests and nuns. One would think that God’s will is God’s will, end of discussion, but that does not completely explain Jesus’ beginning of his public ministry earlier than planned (My time has not yet come) in order to respond to his Mother’s concern regarding her friends.

I have heard it explained that God uses Mary so as to extend his mercy even beyond that which it is innately in him balanced by his justice. One speaker (I have long since forgotten who it was) said that for a woman, mercy is limitless, whereas for God and men, mercy is constrained by justice. This statement is obviously challenge-able. What is difficult for me to fathom is how God’s mercy is perfect and yet can be widened. Someone knowledgeable about this theological opinion would be helpful. It may not be true, I don’t know, but it does offer a solution to Mary’s influence over her Son at Cana. That is, is it possible that his mercy would only go so far except for the mediation of his Mother on our behalf?

This post may be too far afield from the topic, but if so, I hope it is discussed elsewhere in another thread. Forgive me if I am off topic.

 

[simple_soul]

I am not sure I can fully answer your thoughts or questions. I am not a theologian, but I can share what popped into my head when I read them… Maybe they will help you figure it out…

She is uniquely mediator (trix) not between mankind and the Father, as Jesus is, but between mankind and Jesus, her Son. I think it is a distinction worth making. The relationship of Son to Father is one of child to parent, while the relationship of Mother to Son is one of parent to child, just the opposite. One is perfect man to perfect Father, the other, perfect woman to perfect Son, or so it appears to me.

I see it as a path into the Godhead. Into the Trinity. We follow Mary’s Immaculate Heart to Jesus Sacred Heart and when our hearts are joined to the Immaculate Heart of Mary she takes us to Jesus. When our hearts are joined to Jesus Sacred Heart He takes us into the family of the Trinity. It is the path or portal that was opened to us through the Incarnation.
The way I see it we can not really have a heart like Jesus Sacred Heart unless we have a Pure and Immaculate Heart like Mary’s. if we try to be like Jesus without an immaculate heart then we are not truly joining in Jesus sacrifice of self. Our intentions are tarnished by our ego and our striving to be Christ- like is just feeding our ego or self image. The more pure and immaculate our intentions are from our self serving ego the more we actually join in Jesus sacrifice of self. The way I see it is we can not join in Jesus sacrifice of self unless we are Immaculately pure of all self serving intentions… … If we are sacrificing our self and we are doing it for any reason other than for the Love of God then our intentions are not pure. I do believe that it is a process. As we are being purified and made immaculate we are joining in Jesus sacrifice. The more pure and immaculate we become the more fully we join in Jesus sacrifice. It is something that is happening simultaneously but kind of like in rounds. We may spend some time with The Immaculate Heart and then move to the Sacred Heart but in order to continue our Transformation into the Sacred Heart we may need to go back to the Immaculate Heart so that we can advance further or become more intimately joined to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I believe this is what the Spiritual journey, as described by the likes of St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross and others, is all about. This having to go through the dark nights in order to be purged or purified…getting consolations as we go…after each chamber we need to rest a bit and become stronger in what we have just learned in order to go into the next chamber. I hope and pray this is making sense… I know I can see a correlation but am barely able to grasp it let alone try and explain it.

Also, I do not understand, but I believe, that Mary has “influence” with her Son, for want of a better term, as demonstrated at the wedding feast at Cana. Theologians will have to explain how this works; I only accept it as a teaching I have heard repeatedly from representatives of the Church, both priests and nuns. One would think that God’s will is God’s will, end of discussion, but that does not completely explain Jesus’ beginning of his public ministry earlier than planned (My time has not yet come) in order to respond to his Mother’s concern regarding her friends.

Not sure how to answer this one myself except for the fact that I am reminded of something I read that St. Theresa of Avila said. She said that when one is in a certain state of prayer, I believe it is the unitive state of prayer, is when one should bring ones petitions to God. I am not sure but I would say that it is because God waits for us to assume or accept the responsibility of our roles in His plan for our salvation. Our Blessed Mother may have been telling Jesus she was ready before He asked her.

I have heard it explained that God uses Mary so as to extend his mercy even beyond that which it is innately in him balanced by his justice. One speaker (I have long since forgotten who it was) said that for a woman, mercy is limitless, whereas for God and men, mercy is constrained by justice. This statement is obviously challenge-able. What is difficult for me to fathom is how God’s mercy is perfect and yet can be widened. Someone knowledgeable about this theological opinion would be helpful. It may not be true, I don’t know, but it does offer a solution to Mary’s influence over her Son at Cana. That is, is it possible that his mercy would only go so far except for the mediation of his Mother on our behalf?

I am leaning toward the thought hat the only way God’s Mercy is restrained and can seemingly grow wider has to do with us. God does not force His Mercy on us. When we open our selves to His Mercy it is able to grow and spread out. I believe this would also fit in with the above. Maybe women, starting with Mary, have a special role in helping mankind to open up to God’s Mercy.

This post may be too far afield from the topic, but if so, I hope it is discussed elsewhere in another thread. Forgive me if I am off topic.

Not sure if it is off topic or not…just thought I would throw my thoughts out there on it in case it isn’t and I case they help in understanding for you or some one else…
anyway just hope it all made some sense…

 

[Richca]

I have heard it explained that God uses Mary so as to extend his mercy even beyond that which it is innately in him balanced by his justice. One speaker (I have long since forgotten who it was) said that for a woman, mercy is limitless, whereas for God and men, mercy is constrained by justice. This statement is obviously challenge-able. What is difficult for me to fathom is how God’s mercy is perfect and yet can be widened. Someone knowledgeable about this theological opinion would be helpful. It may not be true, I don’t know, but it does offer a solution to Mary’s influence over her Son at Cana. That is, is it possible that his mercy would only go so far except for the mediation of his Mother on our behalf?

\

Hi James and everyone,
Unfortunately I’m not going to have a lot of time this week to respond to some recent posts I’d like too on this thread due to work obligations. However, I’d like to just say a few words on the above paragraph.
The CCC (#293-294) teaches: “This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel “and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .” The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created.”

I say that our Blessed Lady does not nor can she extend God’s mercy beyond that which is innately in Him. Creatures share in God’s goodness and likeness in a finite degree. Mary is a finite creature with finite goodness although St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary’s degree of perfection is at the very summit of creaturely perfection. God is Goodness and He possesses Goodness and all other perfections in an infinite degree. God has infinite mercy and infinite justice. However, God is more inclined to be merciful to us than to satisfy His justice as St Thomas Aquinas remarks.
Whatever good of nature or good of grace that our Lady possesses is from God. I’m sure Mary would be the first to tell us that.

Is there an attribute of God or of Christ that shines out in Mary? The poverty of Christ we see in St Francis of Assisi, Christ the preacher and teacher in St Dominic, Christ’s contemplation in St Bruno. Of course, Mary possesses all the virtues in an eminent degree well above the saints.
St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary personifies God’s mercy. Christ has reserved all judgement and the order of justice to Himself. He has bestowed on His beloved Mother the order of His mercy.

Is there in the Trinity a love like that of a mother? In the Old Testament, we can find passages where God compares His love for the Israelites to that of a mother for her child and even more. “Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.” (Isaiah 49: 15)
Since love seems to be a special perogative of a mother, for a mother is like the heart of a family, and we give the name Love to the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit is the personification of love in the Trinity, “In God, in the very depths of the divine being, there exists a certain motherhood of love, the Holy Spirit, who links Father and Son together in joy and peace.” (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - the Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe).

Is there some concrete sign in creation by which we can form some idea of the Holy Spirit. He appeared as a dove at Jesus’ baptism and as tongues of fire at Pentecost. Is the Holy Spirit like the wind?
St Maximilian Kolbe links Mary with the Holy Spirit. Mary is the concrete sign of the Holy Spirit in creation. Fr Kolbe even says that Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit. Of course, he doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit became incarnated in Mary, but that the Holy Spirit completely possesses Mary soul and body., she is His privledged sanctuary. If we consider our Blessed Mother’s role in our spiritual life, we can gather some idea of the Holy Spirit’s role. For the Holy Spirit works through Mary his spouse in the sanctification of souls.

“The third person of the Blessed Trinity never took flesh, still our human word “spouse” is far to weak to express the reality of the relationship between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit. We can affirm that she is in a certain sense, the “incarnation” of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that we love in her, and through her we love the Son (and through the Son, the Father). The Holy Spirit is far to little known.” (St Maximilian Kolbe).

I recommend the book “Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - The Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe.”

 

[Richca]

So basically he is saying that The Immaclata is perpetually willing her will to God’s and in so doing this she is Perpetually bringing God and His Graces to us because she wills to let God and His Graces Perpetually come to us through herself because she willed to let God Come to us through herself not because God forced her to allow Himself to come to us through her.
She is so in tuned to God that she just wills Him to move through her at will when ever and for whom ever following His every prompting perpetually and because she allows it and not because God is forcing himself and His Will on her but because she wills to let Him work through her Perpetually.
Is this correct?

Hi simple soul,
I was under the impression you had a simple soul . I do not see anything heretical in what you say.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

If MOAG is dogma, as I am persuaded that it is, I am hoping they will make it formally so, for then, I should think they would delve more into the layers of meaning it brings with it, as well as the areas to which it does not mean to speak.

I feel the dispute is not primarily over MOAG in general, but what it means in specific detail. Is the Church still not ready to make this leap?

One post mentioned God not tying his hands. I believe that God does tie his hands in some instances at his own pleasure, for example, taking on the form of a slave, as the Gospel teaches, or giving the authority to bind and loose to his Church for another. The question in my mind is, "Is this another such case?

Does God mean to preclude himself from dispensing of graces in all cases except through Mary and as she wishes?" My intuition is to say, “Yes.” I believe that her will is so submitted to the will of God that the two are one and the same.

In fact, (and this may sound contrary) she may bring a greater wideness to God’s mercy in her being a woman than God would already have in his infinite mercy, and of which fact God himself is the engineer, if this is not heretical, as I am sure some may believe it is. But I put it out there, not as an original thought, but one that I have heard from another source, and feel it worthy of discussion.

Peace.

I hope you all will forgive my post. This thread caught my interest, as we revere the Theotokos as well.

The above quoted post disturbed me. It isn’t an exaggeration to say that it made me want to rend my garments like the Jews of old.

Those of us in the East have a deep devotion to the Theotokos, and yet Roman Catholic Mariology causes us to raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

For us, The Liturgy, Traditions, Hymns, Prayers and Patristics are enough. We too believe in the Dormition, but we have not a single “Marian Dogma.” Why? Because the Tradition speaks for itself.

What more needs to be said about the Theotokos? What is to be gained by these speculations, which skate dangerously close to heresy, and at best muddy the waters?

I ask this because there are a more than a few who are clamoring for this to be made a dogma of your Church. We in the East cannot accept these teachings, and to make them “binding on all the faithful” would be one more stumbling block to your reconciliation with us.

Your Brother JR in his first post essentially said that we should place ourselves in the hands of the Theotokos and forget all of these debates…

I agree.

 

[godisgood77]

I hope you all will forgive my post. This thread caught my interest, as we revere the Theotokos as well.

The above quoted post disturbed me. It isn’t an exaggeration to say that it made me want to rend my garments like the Jews of old.

Those of us in the East have a deep devotion to the Theotokos, and yet Roman Catholic Mariology causes us to raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

For us, The Liturgy, Traditions, Hymns, Prayers and Patristics are enough. We too believe in the Dormition, but we have not a single “Marian Dogma.” Why? Because the Tradition speaks for itself.

What more needs to be said about the Theotokos? What is to be gained by these speculations, which skate dangerously close to heresy, and at best muddy the waters?

I ask this because there are a more than a few who are clamoring for this to be made a dogma of your Church. We in the East cannot accept these teachings, and to make them “binding on all the faithful” would be one more stumbling block to your reconciliation with us.

Your Brother JR in his first post essentially said that we should place ourselves in the hands of the Theotokos and forget all of these debates…

I agree.

Thanks for your post Misplaced. I agree too.

I’ve been guilty of splitting hairs in this thread and, for that, I apologize. What I will say is that it takes God’s grace to live in uncertainty. Many of the questions can not and should not be answered in my opinion. That’s what faith is for… If we knew all of the answers, why would we need God?

May Our Lady pray to the Father with us and help us to align our will to that of the Father!

 

[JamesCaruso]

\

Hi James and everyone,
Unfortunately I’m not going to have a lot of time this week to respond to some recent posts I’d like too on this thread due to work obligations. However, I’d like to just say a few words on the above paragraph.
The CCC (#293-294) teaches: “This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel “and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .” The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created.”

I say that our Blessed Lady does not nor can she extend God’s mercy beyond that which is innately in Him. Creatures share in God’s goodness and likeness in a finite degree. Mary is a finite creature with finite goodness although St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary’s degree of perfection is at the very summit of creaturely perfection. God is Goodness and He possesses Goodness and all other perfections in an infinite degree. God has infinite mercy and infinite justice. However, God is more inclined to be merciful to us than to satisfy His justice as St Thomas Aquinas remarks.
Whatever good of nature or good of grace that our Lady possesses is from God. I’m sure Mary would be the first to tell us that.

Is there an attribute of God or of Christ that shines out in Mary? The poverty of Christ we see in St Francis of Assisi, Christ the preacher and teacher in St Dominic, Christ’s contemplation in St Bruno. Of course, Mary possesses all the virtues in an eminent degree well above the saints.
St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary personifies God’s mercy. Christ has reserved all judgement and the order of justice to Himself. He has bestowed on His beloved Mother the order of His mercy.

Is there in the Trinity a love like that of a mother? In the Old Testament, we can find passages where God compares His love for the Israelites to that of a mother for her child and even more. “Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.” (Isaiah 49: 15)
Since love seems to be a special perogative of a mother, for a mother is like the heart of a family, and we give the name Love to the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit is the personification of love in the Trinity, “In God, in the very depths of the divine being, there exists a certain motherhood of love, the Holy Spirit, who links Father and Son together in joy and peace.” (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - the Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe).

Is there some concrete sign in creation by which we can form some idea of the Holy Spirit. He appeared as a dove at Jesus’ baptism and as tongues of fire at Pentecost. Is the Holy Spirit like the wind?
St Maximilian Kolbe links Mary with the Holy Spirit. Mary is the concrete sign of the Holy Spirit in creation. Fr Kolbe even says that Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit. Of course, he doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit became incarnated in Mary, but that the Holy Spirit completely possesses Mary soul and body., she is His privledged sanctuary. If we consider our Blessed Mother’s role in our spiritual life, we can gather some idea of the Holy Spirit’s role. For the Holy Spirit works through Mary his spouse in the sanctification of souls.

“The third person of the Blessed Trinity never took flesh, still our human word “spouse” is far to weak to express the reality of the relationship between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit. We can affirm that she is in a certain sense, the “incarnation” of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that we love in her, and through her we love the Son (and through the Son, the Father). The Holy Spirit is far to little known.” (St Maximilian Kolbe).

I recommend the book “Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - The Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe.”

Thank you very much for this. As I was reading, however, it occurred to me that mercy is not a commodity such that the more you have the more merciful you are. Mercy has a limit, doesn’t it, and that limit, all thing being equal, is justice, isn’t it? For God to be ALl Just, does He not have to draw a line somewhere?

The theory I heard was that a woman, unlike God or a man, (bear with me, this is not my idea) at her most extreme is all mercy. No justice, but all mercy, pure mercy. So that when everyone else gives up on someone, a woman may feel that judgment should be delayed and even more mercy extended. I don’t know how valid this theory is, but it could go to explain how Mary could influence God whose mercy and justice are perfect. Could it be that God wanted an excuse to extend even more mercy that justice would seem to permit? Could it be that God created woman to give Him an excuse to be even more merciful, and so, God allows the occasion of His Mother’s request to be the vehicle by which he extends even more mercy to mankind than He would otherwise extend without her intercession? The theory may be off, but the fact remains that God did change his “perfect plan” for beginning his public ministry on the occasion of honoring His Mother’s request for help.

What do you think?

 

[Misplaced_Book]

Thank you very much for this. As I was reading, however, it occurred to me that mercy is not a commodity such that the more you have the more merciful you are. Mercy has a limit, doesn’t it, and that limit, all thing being equal, is justice, isn’t it? For God to be ALl Just, does He not have to draw a line somewhere?

The theory I heard was that a woman, unlike God or a man, (bear with me, this is not my idea) at her most extreme is all mercy. No justice, but all mercy, pure mercy. So that when everyone else gives up on someone, a woman may feel that judgment should be delayed and even more mercy extended. I don’t know how valid this theory is, but it could go to explain how Mary could influence God whose mercy and justice are perfect. Could it be that God wanted an excuse to extend even more mercy that justice would seem to permit? Could it be that God created woman to give Him an excuse to be even more merciful, and so, God allows the occasion of His Mother’s request to be the vehicle by which he extends even more mercy to mankind than He would otherwise extend without her intercession? The theory may be off, but the fact remains that God did change his “perfect plan” for beginning his public ministry on the occasion of honoring His Mother’s request for help.

What do you think?

If God’s mercy and justice are perfect, there is no reason to suppose this. The model of an angry God that the Theotokos has to “stay his hand” is perplexing, to put it very mildly.

“God allows the occasion of His Mother’s request to be the vehicle by which he extends even more mercy to mankind than He would otherwise extend without her intercession?”

This line of thinking is an example of the danger I was talking about.

 

[TimothyH]

I hope you all will forgive my post. This thread caught my interest, as we revere the Theotokos as well.

The above quoted post disturbed me. It isn’t an exaggeration to say that it made me want to rend my garments like the Jews of old.

Those of us in the East have a deep devotion to the Theotokos, and yet Roman Catholic Mariology causes us to raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

For us, The Liturgy, Traditions, Hymns, Prayers and Patristics are enough. We too believe in the Dormition, but we have not a single “Marian Dogma.” Why? Because the Tradition speaks for itself.

What more needs to be said about the Theotokos? What is to be gained by these speculations, which skate dangerously close to heresy, and at best muddy the waters?

I ask this because there are a more than a few who are clamoring for this to be made a dogma of your Church. We in the East cannot accept these teachings, and to make them “binding on all the faithful” would be one more stumbling block to your reconciliation with us.

Your Brother JR in his first post essentially said that we should place ourselves in the hands of the Theotokos and forget all of these debates…

I agree.

With all due respect, a declaration of dogma is a defense of divinely revealed truth against error. When dogma is declared, it is done so not to make it binding upon the faithful but because some aspect of divinely revealed truth has been sufficiently challenged that a declaration of its unquestionable status as divine revelation is in order for the purpose of protecting the faithful against error.

With that in mind, many are “clamoring” for this to be made dogma because many are challenging it. Insofar as individuals “cannot accept these things” they further add to the challenge. Perhaps it is they who have to reconcile with the Catholic Church and not the other way around.

-Tim-

 

[JamesCaruso]

I hope you all will forgive my post. This thread caught my interest, as we revere the Theotokos as well.

The above quoted post disturbed me. It isn’t an exaggeration to say that it made me want to rend my garments like the Jews of old.

Those of us in the East have a deep devotion to the Theotokos, and yet Roman Catholic Mariology causes us to raise an eyebrow, to say the least.

For us, The Liturgy, Traditions, Hymns, Prayers and Patristics are enough. We too believe in the Dormition, but we have not a single “Marian Dogma.” Why? Because the Tradition speaks for itself.

What more needs to be said about the Theotokos? What is to be gained by these speculations, which skate dangerously close to heresy, and at best muddy the waters?

I ask this because there are a more than a few who are clamoring for this to be made a dogma of your Church. We in the East cannot accept these teachings, and to make them “binding on all the faithful” would be one more stumbling block to your reconciliation with us.

Your Brother JR in his first post essentially said that we should place ourselves in the hands of the Theotokos and forget all of these debates…

I agree.

The Church has a habit of studying and scrutinizing traditions before declaring dogmas. You know this, as the Church did just so before declaring the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, two dogmas that Orthodoxy rejects, not to mention, original sin. This is nothing new. As a Catholic, I see debate as healthy and normal.

I don’t think the Church acts on the basis of whether its declarations create stumbling blocks to reconciliation. If the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to the Church and leads it to make such a declaration, it must do so. I do not believe the Church acts on its own, nor is it human judgment that leads it, but the very Spirit of God.

Jesus did not speak cryptically when it came time to declare that men must eat his body and blood to have eternal life. No, he became very explicit even though he knew many would reject him, his teaching and his future church. If the Church makes such a declaration of Mediatrix of All Graces I will not view it as a bunch of bumbling clerics erring in judgment and common sense, but as the Holy Spirit leading the Church to declare the fullness of truth in due season.

In some sense, we are already reconciled. The Church is not declaring Orthodox Christians are going to hell. It is merely saying that disagreements in doctrines and recognition of the Papacy have caused us not to be at one with each other. Agreement on one doctrine alone would bring us into complete reconciliation, and that would be recognition of Papal infallibility.

I don’t see our relationship as strained, or such that another doctrine would set us back. It is respectful and understanding. We disagree on some doctrines-- end of story. We both hope for reconciliation. The Holy Spirit can do that and will do so in due time. That’s how I see it, anyway.

 

[JamesCaruso]

If God’s mercy and justice are perfect, there is no reason to suppose this. The model of an angry God that the Theotokos has to “stay his hand” is perplexing, to put it very mildly.

“God allows the occasion of His Mother’s request to be the vehicle by which he extends even more mercy to mankind than He would otherwise extend without her intercession?”

This line of thinking is an example of the danger I was talking about.

I did not mention an angry God, but will grant you that many do. Look at it this way. God is life. If a person chooses not to obey God, they choose to be separated from God, IOW, death. Ultimately, spiritual death leads to hell. To such people, God must indeed “seem” angry, even though it is they themselves who put themselves there. Hell exists because God is just. That being said, I don’t know with certainty that anyone is there.

Is the concept of Mary staying the just judgments of God much different than the concept of saints and Mary interceding or praying to God on our behalf? Intercessory prayer is so much a part of the Roman Church that I doubt it could ever go away. Do not Orthodox ask the saints and Mary for their prayers? Catholics constantly ask the saints to pray for them. If God already had his mind made up about everything, what good would prayers be?

 

[JamesCaruso]

\

Hi James and everyone,
Unfortunately I’m not going to have a lot of time this week to respond to some recent posts I’d like too on this thread due to work obligations. However, I’d like to just say a few words on the above paragraph.
The CCC (#293-294) teaches: “This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel “and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .” The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created.”

I say that our Blessed Lady does not nor can she extend God’s mercy beyond that which is innately in Him. Creatures share in God’s goodness and likeness in a finite degree. Mary is a finite creature with finite goodness although St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary’s degree of perfection is at the very summit of creaturely perfection. God is Goodness and He possesses Goodness and all other perfections in an infinite degree. God has infinite mercy and infinite justice. However, God is more inclined to be merciful to us than to satisfy His justice as St Thomas Aquinas remarks.
Whatever good of nature or good of grace that our Lady possesses is from God. I’m sure Mary would be the first to tell us that.

Is there an attribute of God or of Christ that shines out in Mary? The poverty of Christ we see in St Francis of Assisi, Christ the preacher and teacher in St Dominic, Christ’s contemplation in St Bruno. Of course, Mary possesses all the virtues in an eminent degree well above the saints.
St Maximilian Kolbe says that Mary personifies God’s mercy. Christ has reserved all judgement and the order of justice to Himself. He has bestowed on His beloved Mother the order of His mercy.

Is there in the Trinity a love like that of a mother? In the Old Testament, we can find passages where God compares His love for the Israelites to that of a mother for her child and even more. “Can a mother forget her infant, be without tenderness for the child of her womb? Even should she forget, I will never forget you.” (Isaiah 49: 15)
Since love seems to be a special perogative of a mother, for a mother is like the heart of a family, and we give the name Love to the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit is the personification of love in the Trinity, “In God, in the very depths of the divine being, there exists a certain motherhood of love, the Holy Spirit, who links Father and Son together in joy and peace.” (Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - the Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe).

Is there some concrete sign in creation by which we can form some idea of the Holy Spirit. He appeared as a dove at Jesus’ baptism and as tongues of fire at Pentecost. Is the Holy Spirit like the wind?
St Maximilian Kolbe links Mary with the Holy Spirit. Mary is the concrete sign of the Holy Spirit in creation. Fr Kolbe even says that Mary is the quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit. Of course, he doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit became incarnated in Mary, but that the Holy Spirit completely possesses Mary soul and body., she is His privledged sanctuary. If we consider our Blessed Mother’s role in our spiritual life, we can gather some idea of the Holy Spirit’s role. For the Holy Spirit works through Mary his spouse in the sanctification of souls.

“The third person of the Blessed Trinity never took flesh, still our human word “spouse” is far to weak to express the reality of the relationship between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit. We can affirm that she is in a certain sense, the “incarnation” of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that we love in her, and through her we love the Son (and through the Son, the Father). The Holy Spirit is far to little known.” (St Maximilian Kolbe).

I recommend the book “Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit - The Marian Teachings of Father Kolbe.”

Even with all that you say, including the part where God is likened to a mother, the overwhelming evidence of the Bible is that God in all three Persons in somehow more akin to the masculine-- Father, Son and Love between or proceeding from the Father and the Son. Also, as you mentioned, the Holy Spirit is the spouse of Mary, a woman, and therefore to be likened to her husband, a masculine role.

As you say, Mary personifies God’s mercy. Think of that, God’s mercy, not his mercy and his justice. She personifies his mercy, she is all mercy. Perhaps, In her, mercy is not constrained by justice. Perhaps, her pleadings on our behalf go beyond God’s mercy, and because of his love for her, he is persuaded to forgo the “demands” of justice.

You said that St Thomas said that God is more inclined to extend his justice than to satisfy his justice. He remarks this, but does he explain it. It seems like an unjust bias at first blush. Are these intuitions of St. Thomas or has he written in his characteristically logical manner why he makes this statement?

I can’t exactly put my finger on it, but I think there is something to this idea of Mary not only personifying the mercy of God, as you say, but only personifying the mercy of God, not his justice. I’m not teaching this, or preaching this, only contemplating this, which so far seems beyond my understanding. Maybe, I’m out in left field.

But still, I think there’s no denying that Mary has influence with her Son. I think all Roman Catholics believe that.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

The Church has a habit of studying and scrutinizing traditions before declaring dogmas. You know this, as the Church did just so before declaring the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, two dogmas that Orthodoxy rejects, not to mention, original sin. This is nothing new. As a Catholic, I see debate as healthy and normal.

I don’t think the Church acts on the basis of whether its declarations create stumbling blocks to reconciliation. If the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to the Church and leads it to make such a declaration, it must do so. I do not believe the Church acts on its own, nor is it human judgment that leads it, but the very Spirit of God.

Jesus did not speak cryptically when it came time to declare that men must eat his body and blood to have eternal life. No, he became very explicit even though he knew many would reject him, his teaching and his future church. If the Church makes such a declaration of Mediatrix of All Graces I will not view it as a bunch of bumbling clerics erring in judgment and common sense, but as the Holy Spirit leading the Church to declare the fullness of truth in due season.

In some sense, we are already reconciled. The Church is not declaring Orthodox Christians are going to hell. It is merely saying that disagreements in doctrines and recognition of the Papacy have caused us not to be at one with each other. Agreement on one doctrine alone would bring us into complete reconciliation, and that would be recognition of Papal infallibility.

I don’t see our relationship as strained, or such that another doctrine would set us back. It is respectful and understanding. We disagree on some doctrines-- end of story. We both hope for reconciliation. The Holy Spirit can do that and will do so in due time. That’s how I see it, anyway.

Orthodox see no problem with discussion either, but discussion should have its boundaries and its goals. What is it we are discussing? What is the point? That too is important (Endless “dialogue” is a sad trend today).

We reject the Immaculate Conception because we reject the traditional Western view of “Original Sin” (although your position has been “clarified” in recent years). We do not reject The Dormition of the Theotokos (The Assumption is the Latin equivalent) it is a key feast in the calendar. Orthodoxy does assert that the Theotokos died a natural death before she was taken up, whereas the Latins go either way (death or not). We just don’t see a need to make it a “dogma”…we don’t have Marian dogmas, with the reasons I stated prior.

Obviously were the Latin Church to declare such a dogma (Mediatrix of All Graces), we would assert that such a teaching is not Orthodox, and therefore, not “the Truth.”

Orthodoxy rejects the idea of “degrees of communion”…one is either in Communion, or they are not. The Latin Church is not in communion with us. We do not share the same beliefs, or we would be in Communion. Your measuring stick of unity is submission to Rome…obviously we can’t be reunited under such conditions.

Our relationship is cordial and mostly respectful, even friendly in many places. But then again, we have such warm relations with the Anglicans as well…that doesn’t mean we accept their Ecclesiology or would admit them to Holy Communion (because we are not in Communion).

Old Rome is right in so far as they keep to the Traditions of the Undivided Church and teach Orthodox teaching. The post-schism teachings are unacceptable and seen as innovations grafted on the Church Catholic. We will never accept Papal Infallibility or Universal Jurisdiction…that is the reality.

You’re right, I do hope for a reconciliation. Pope Francis has taken steps in the right direction by rejecting the Papal Tiara model of the Papacy and all that goes with it…his moves towards Collegiality have been warmly received by Orthodox that I have talked to. It is all on God’s time…not ours.