Tradition without the Immaculate is not tradition

[Misplaced_Book]

I did not mention an angry God, but will grant you that many do. Look at it this way. God is life. If a person chooses not to obey God, they choose to be separated from God, IOW, death. Ultimately, spiritual death leads to hell. To such people, God must indeed “seem” angry, even though it is they themselves who put themselves there. Hell exists because God is just. That being said, I don’t know with certainty that anyone is there.

Is the concept of Mary staying the just judgments of God much different than the concept of saints and Mary interceding or praying to God on our behalf? Intercessory prayer is so much a part of the Roman Church that I doubt it could ever go away. Do not Orthodox ask the saints and Mary for their prayers? Catholics constantly ask the saints to pray for them. If God already had his mind made up about everything, what good would prayers be?

We do believe in intercessory prayer…but the full extent of what and how is a Mystery. We only know what Scripture, The Liturgy, Apostolic Tradition, The Hymns, Prayers, and Fathers tell us…this is why we are not fond of the teachings of Transubstantiation (even though it isn’t against Orthodox teaching necessarily, we are very uncomfortable attempting to “explain the Eucharist”) and reject Purgatory…anything beyond what we have been given is Speculation, and the danger of Spiritual Delusion is great.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

With all due respect, a declaration of dogma is a defense of divinely revealed truth against error. When dogma is declared, it is done so not to make it binding upon the faithful but because some aspect of divinely revealed truth has been sufficiently challenged that a declaration of its unquestionable status as divine revelation is in order for the purpose of protecting the faithful against error.

With that in mind, many are “clamoring” for this to be made dogma because many are challenging it. Insofar as individuals “cannot accept these things” they further add to the challenge. Perhaps it is they who have to reconcile with the Catholic Church and not the other way around.

-Tim-

I will only answer that declaring such a dogma would be unwise and further estrange the East from you.

This will be my last public post in this thread, lest my display name turn grey and a label be slapped underneath it.

I will let those who were gracious and replied to me have the last word publicly and if you want to continue dialogue you can PM me.

God be with you all.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Orthodox see no problem with discussion either, but discussion should have its boundaries and its goals. What is it we are discussing? What is the point? That too is important (Endless “dialogue” is a sad trend today).

We reject the Immaculate Conception because we reject the traditional Western view of “Original Sin” (although your position has been “clarified” in recent years). We do not reject The Dormition of the Theotokos (The Assumption is the Latin equivalent) it is a key feast in the calendar. Orthodoxy does assert that the Theotokos died a natural death before she was taken up, whereas the Latins go either way (death or not). We just don’t see a need to make it a “dogma”…we don’t have Marian dogmas, with the reasons I stated prior.

Obviously were the Latin Church to declare such a dogma (Mediatrix of All Graces), we would assert that such a teaching is not Orthodox, and therefore, not “the Truth.”

Orthodoxy rejects the idea of “degrees of communion”…one is either in Communion, or they are not. The Latin Church is not in communion with us. We do not share the same beliefs, or we would be in Communion. Your measuring stick of unity is submission to Rome…obviously we can’t be reunited under such conditions.

Our relationship is cordial and mostly respectful, even friendly in many places. But then again, we have such warm relations with the Anglicans as well…that doesn’t mean we accept their Ecclesiology or would admit them to Holy Communion (because we are not in Communion).

Old Rome is right in so far as they keep to the Traditions of the Undivided Church and teach Orthodox teaching. The post-schism teachings are unacceptable and seen as innovations grafted on the Church Catholic. We will never accept Papal Infallibility or Universal Jurisdiction…that is the reality.

You’re right, I do hope for a reconciliation. Pope Francis has taken steps in the right direction by rejecting the Papal Tiara model of the Papacy and all that goes with it…his moves towards Collegiality have been warmly received by Orthodox that I have talked to. It is all on God’s time…not ours.

But surely you know that by Assumption we do not mean a mere falling asleep. We mean that Mary was assumed “body and soul” into heaven, just as Jesus returned to the Father in both body and soul. *

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit has led it to declare the so-called Marian dogmas. If this is the case, then it is not a matter of choosing or deciding, it is a matter of following God, of being obedient.

As for Papal infallibility, if you don’t believe in it, you are necessarily disbelieving in the infallibility of the Councils of the Roman Church acting in unison, for it was the Vatican Council that declared the doctrine of Papal Infallibility. So, in the end, it seems the Orthodox Church has reserved the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit to itself.

So that is where we stand today. It is not about Marian dogmas. That would all fall into place if the Primacy of the Pope as successor to Peter were agreed to. Both Churches claim infallibility. Both Churches claim the fullness of truth. The Roman Church claims the headship of the Pope as successor to St. Peter and the Orthodox Church denies it, saying that all the bishops are equals. It’s all about the primacy of the Pope, and later, his declared infallibility when speaking ex cathedra. I would bet my last dollar, if I were a gambling man, that Pope Francis will not deny the primacy of the Pope and his headship over all the Church of Christ. Nor will he deny the infallibility of the Pope speaking ex cathedra. This schism will clearly not end with the capitulation of the Roman Church. But Francis is wise in steering clear of the things that separate us, wiser than I. But you are not a bishop, and what we think matters not. It’s still and will remain over the Filoque and the primacy of the Pope. It seems like an insurmountable obstacle to reunion, but with God nothing is impossible. Someday, I look forward to us being one, holy, apostolic and catholic church.*

 

[TimothyH]

I will only answer that declaring such a dogma would be unwise and further estrange the East from you.

This will be my last public post in this thread, lest my display name turn grey and a label be slapped underneath it.

I will let those who were gracious and replied to me have the last word publicly and if you want to continue dialogue you can PM me.

God be with you all.

Nobody is slapping a label on you. I thought we were having a nice discussion.

-Tim-

 

[JamesCaruso]

I will only answer that declaring such a dogma would be unwise and further estrange the East from you.

This will be my last public post in this thread, lest my display name turn grey and a label be slapped underneath it.

I will let those who were gracious and replied to me have the last word publicly and if you want to continue dialogue you can PM me.

God be with you all.

I would like to think we are not estranged, but simply have a difference of opinion as to a couple of fundamentals. We are up against a very intelligent adversary, smarter than all of us, but no match for the Holy Spirit. No matter which of us is right, we both know that God wants us to be reunited. When all looks lost, victory comes, which in this case would be our reunion. Not a victory for either side, but a victory for Christ.

Since we are talking about Mary, maybe one of her many titles will come into play, Mary, Undoer of Knots. Have you heard of this devotion?

To show us the mission granted to the Virgin Mary by Her Son, an unknown artist painted Mary Undoer of Knots with great grace. Since 1700, his painting has been venerated in the Church of St. Peter in Perlack, Germany. It was originally inspired by a meditation of Saint Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyon and martyred in 202) based on the parallel made by Saint Paul between Adam and Christ. Saint Irenaeus, in turn, made a comparison between Eve and Mary, saying:

“Eve, by her disobedience, tied the knot of disgrace for the human race; whereas Mary, by her obedience, undid it”.

But what are these knots?

They are the problems and struggles we face for which we do not see any solution… maryundoerofknots.com/history.htm

View attachment 18377

Mary, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.

 

[hazcompat]

Peace

 

[1RC]

How I wish that all of us who debate so much about tradition on both sides of the aisle would stop the debate just for one day and place our frustrations, suspicions, fears, and anger in the hands of the Immaculate.

No one is more loving, more understanding, and more knowledgeable of her Son’s will for us than she is. Rather than struggle and argue to defend and reject, what would it be like to simply rest on a mother’s lap and ask her to guide us as we learn to walk through these difficult times in human history as she taught the young Jesus to walk while in exile in Egypt.

Today is our Egypt. We can argue or we can hold on to our Mother’s hand as Jesus did.

Amen!