Traditional Anglican Communion and Rome

[RevDrNorth]

Does anyone have an idea of how long it will take for the TAC’s petition to Rome for unity to be ruled upon?

Rumor has it that Pope Benedict is in favor and has had established contacts with TAC for some time. Rumor also has it that Cardinal Kasper is opposed (he is more liberal and favors the Archbishop of Canterbury).

I know they just recently formally petitioned and things in Rome move slowly but are we talking months or years

This has the potential to benefit both Anglicans and Rome in that it will give an Anglican Rite (with some independence kind of like the Eastern Catholics) and may therefore provide a home for other disaffected Anglicans from the Communion.

 

[GKC]

Does anyone have an idea of how long it will take for the TAC’s petition to Rome for unity to be ruled upon?

Rumor has it that Pope Benedict is in favor and has had established contacts with TAC for some time. Rumor also has it that Cardinal Kasper is opposed (he is more liberal and favors the Archbishop of Canterbury).

I know they just recently formally petitioned and things in Rome move slowly but are we talking months or years

This has the potential to benefit both Anglicans and Rome in that it will give an Anglican Rite (with some independence kind of like the Eastern Catholics) and may therefore provide a home for other disaffected Anglicans from the Communion.

As you may recall, I am skeptical of this and have resolved not to cogitate overly on it, until a word (any word) comes from an official source in Rome. Rumors are rife, but Rome will rule.

Assuming there *is *anything going on.

GKC, dubious

 

[CWackerman]

The Primate of the Traditional Anglican Communion has repeatedly requested that people not speculate on when and if Rome will respond or in what manner. Very recently Abp. Hepworth posted the same request to the “Anglican Use” mailing list on internet in response to speculation posted there. It appears that the TAC college of bishops promised to make efforts to mute speculation when they made their petition. That said, it is clear that there are a lot of rumors, theories, and maybe even some wishful thinking out there, but little if any factual information. Suffice it to say Rome will answer once they have completed study and debate and fact gathering, whether that takes days or years.

I pray that Rome makes a home for TAC because I believe that if these Anglicans are accepted, a great many more will follow, though they may watch cautiously to see how TAC is treated in the long run.

 

[chris_molter]

I’m with GKC on this one. Also, from what my friends in TAC have said, the Bishops are not accurately representing the desires of the laity on this. The laity seems more hesitant and would not want union with Rome unless certain conditions were met. So even if the proposal is worked out and a place made for TAC within the Catholic Church, we may see a large number of TAC parishoners jump ship anyway.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m with GKC on this one. Also, from what my friends in TAC have said, the Bishops are not accurately representing the desires of the laity on this. The laity seems more hesitant and would not want union with Rome unless certain conditions were met. So even if the proposal is worked out and a place made for TAC within the Catholic Church, we may see a large number of TAC parishoners jump ship anyway.

I have this impression (no statistical evidence though) that the various Anglican bodies, especially in the USA, have a large number of former Roman Catholics, it could be as high as 30%.

I don’t know enough about the TAC to generalize, but if they are anything like TEC some of this may apply…

A difficulty arises in the reasons the former RC are with the Anglican church body. It is usually a conscious decision, often motivated by some problem with Roman Catholic teachings or practices.

For instance, a person may be on a second marriage. Or they might have married a protestant and agreed to raise the children as non-Catholics. Many priests are former RC priests who took brides.

Some people might be hoping for blanket dispensations for their peculiar situations. If these are not forthcoming, what will they do, how will their small parishes hold together?

Then again many of the bishops of TAC are married. We know they are more or less willing to step down, but where will the replacements come from if most of the parish priests are also married? Does TAC have enough celibate priests to form a good pool of candidates, or will they have to accept bishops sent to them from outside? I don’t know if there is a monastic community attached to their church, but that would be the normal source for bishops if the majority of parish priests are not suitable.

I am sure all of these concerns are being pondered in the Vatican right now, and it should be obvious that the church will not want to set any precedents with this small group which will damage the formal policy of the overall church in the long run.

Michael

 

[ChadS]

I’m sure this will only help to confuse the issue, but I remember reading a few months back about this issue. Some official (can’t remember who) mentioned that the Vatican tends to shy away from such broad talks with a group like the TAC over full communion since many thorny issues would be raised over bringing in such a large number of people into communion at one time. Not to mention other issues of what to do with church property – how to incorporate that, investigating the holy orders of the TAC priests etc. This person did say it was more preferable to do conversions one on one or even at the parish level.

ChadS

 

[GKC]

I’m with GKC on this one. Also, from what my friends in TAC have said, the Bishops are not accurately representing the desires of the laity on this. The laity seems more hesitant and would not want union with Rome unless certain conditions were met. So even if the proposal is worked out and a place made for TAC within the Catholic Church, we may see a large number of TAC parishoners jump ship anyway.

And I with you. I know of one parish that left the ACA over the issue, after the bishops meeting.

This is a tale of over 12 years standing. And still I can’t point to one fact, coming out of Rome, with respect to it.

If it happens, just what happens remains to be seen.

GKC, still dubious.

 

[GKC]

I’m sure this will only help to confuse the issue, but I remember reading a few months back about this issue. Some official (can’t remember who) mentioned that the Vatican tends to shy away from such broad talks with a group like the TAC over full communion since many thorny issues would be raised over bringing in such a large number of people into communion at one time. Not to mention other issues of what to do with church property – how to incorporate that, investigating the holy orders of the TAC priests etc. This person did say it was more preferable to do conversions one on one or even at the parish level.

ChadS

Historically, this is quite true. Individual submission is the accepted, preferred and often only route.

GKC

 

[Spirithound]

I’ve wondered this for some time, but from the Catholic perspective, it seems clear that there will have to be ordinations because of the lack of valid previous ordinations. What is the view from the TAC end? Do they realize that their previous ordinations were invalid? Will they be agreeable to undergo the proper rite? (“again”, perhaps?)

 

[GKC]

I’ve wondered this for some time, but from the Catholic perspective, it seems clear that there will have to be ordinations because of the lack of valid previous ordinations. What is the view from the TAC end? Do they realize that their previous ordinations were invalid? Will they be agreeable to undergo the proper rite? (“again”, perhaps?)

It is certain that they are quite aware of Apostolicae Curae. It is not certain that some form of sub conditione, as opposed to absolute ordination might be in the deal.

Who knows?

GKC

 

[rjs1]

Historically, this is quite true. Individual submission is the accepted, preferred and often only route.

GKC

This is not necessarily the case. The Anglican Usage in the United States shows that Rome WILL accept whole parishes. This surely is the precedent and model for what the TAC have asked for.

The Anglican Usage, though small in number, have shown that ex-Anglicans can come across to Rome bringing a beautiful liturgy with them.

 

[GKC]

This is not necessarily the case. The Anglican Usage in the United States shows that Rome WILL accept whole parishes. This surely is the precedent and model for what the TAC have asked for.

The Anglican Usage, though small in number, have shown that ex-Anglicans can come across to Rome bringing a beautiful liturgy with them.

Yes, I know. I had made a reference to Anglican Use, in that post, then deleted it.

It is an exception to the rule, and one that the hierarchy in the US is not fond of. In Britain it was never established. The preffered method is individual submission. And Anglican Use is a temporary expedient. Except for a couple of trophy parishes in Texas, the pattern for the AU is a short-time using the Book of Divine Worship, then shift to NO. The TAC folks want, not a Use, but a Rite. Different world.

GKC

 

[CWackerman]

I’m with GKC on this one. Also, from what my friends in TAC have said, the Bishops are not accurately representing the desires of the laity on this. The laity seems more hesitant and would not want union with Rome unless certain conditions were met. So even if the proposal is worked out and a place made for TAC within the Catholic Church, we may see a large number of TAC parishoners jump ship anyway.

Well, according to the research I have been able to do it appears that all of the “national synods” within the TAC except may maybe Ireland have approved the plans for union with Rome… and laity is most certainly present and voting. In addition many of their diocesan synods have also debated and passed on the issue I am told. Given that all parishes and missions send lay representatives to diocesan synods and representatives for the national synods it is hard to believe that there is any misrepresentation involved.

I have not been a member of the “continuing church” for more than 20 years having come to the Catholic Church by way of the Orthodox, but when I was last a part of it the bishops were on a very short leash and wouldn’t have even thought of leading the laity off the right path. Still, I imagine there are laity, especially in the US who may not fully comprehend what reunion might involve.

 

[ChadS]

Yes, I know. I had made a reference to Anglican Use, in that post, then deleted it.

It is an exception to the rule, and one that the hierarchy in the US is not fond of. In Britain it was never established. The preffered method is individual submission. And Anglican Use is a temporary expedient. Except for a couple of trophy parishes in Texas, the pattern for the AU is a short-time using the Book of Divine Worship, then shift to NO. The TAC folks want, not a Use, but a Rite. Different world.

GKC

I hadn’t heard that TAC wanted another rite. The Holy See could certainly do that if they so desired. The TAC would, however, have to prove that their history and liturgical and theological traditions were sufficiently different from or originated differently than the rest of the Latin west. This they could not do since Anglicans at their very moment of inception separated from Rome and not a separate tradition under the Holy See.

ChadS

 

[Hesychios]

Yes, I know. I had made a reference to Anglican Use, in that post, then deleted it.

It is an exception to the rule, and one that the hierarchy in the US is not fond of. In Britain it was never established. The preffered method is individual submission. And Anglican Use is a temporary expedient. Except for a couple of trophy parishes in Texas, the pattern for the AU is a short-time using the Book of Divine Worship, then shift to NO. The TAC folks want, not a Use, but a Rite. Different world.

GKC

I was going to post this same information, although not as concisely, then I deleted it.

I think you have brought up good points.

I don’t think the problem is with TAC, really, it is that Rome cannot figure out how to fit them in without a totally new paradigm, departing from the Pastoral Provision of JP II and doing something quite different.

 

[GKC]

I hadn’t heard that TAC wanted another rite. The Holy See could certainly do that if they so desired. The TAC would, however, have to prove that their history and liturgical and theological traditions were sufficiently different from or originated differently than the rest of the Latin west. This they could not do since Anglicans at their very moment of inception separated from Rome and not a separate tradition under the Holy See.

ChadS

You see why I’m dubious (among other reasons).

GKC

 

[rjs1]

I think a lot of you are going to get quite a surprise.

I know there are a number of serious issues to be resolved. However, I have been watching the progress of the Anglican Usage parishes and keeping in touch with some Churchmen here in Australia who seem to have some idea of which way Rome might be thinking.

I suspect that Rome will make some way possible for the TAC people to come across with their liturgy. I further think that Rome knows that the Catholic hierarchy, especially in Britain, have been against this.Therefore I think that Rome may make it possible for the TAC group to end up with their own epsicopal jurisdiction.

Having been involved with this for many many years now, from both a Catholic and and formerly, an Anglican position, I really do think that we are approaching a major event.

 

[Ignatius]

Then again many of the bishops of TAC are married.

Don’t the bishops, even among the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox who have married clergy, have to be celibate?

 

[GKC]

I think a lot of you are going to get quite a surprise.

I know there are a number of serious issues to be resolved. However, I have been watching the progress of the Anglican Usage parishes and keeping in touch with some Churchmen here in Australia who seem to have some idea of which way Rome might be thinking.

I suspect that Rome will make some way possible for the TAC people to come across with their liturgy. I further think that Rome knows that the Catholic hierarchy, especially in Britain, have been against this.Therefore I think that Rome may make it possible for the TAC group to end up with their own epsicopal jurisdiction.

Having been involved with this for many many years now, from both a Catholic and and formerly, an Anglican position, I really do think that we are approaching a major event.

I await, with skeptical interest.

GKC

 

[Hesychios]

Don’t the bishops, even among the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox who have married clergy, have to be celibate?

That is not the rule for Anglicans, although I don’t know if the TAC has taken steps to reverse this development. And I really should not have launched out on that statement, because I really don’t know how many bishops they have, and I only assumed they were mostly married…my bad

BTW, the PNCC also has married bishops, and they are, without a doubt, considered valid bishops by the Roman Catholic church.

The early church did have married bishops, so invalidating a bishop on that basis alone would cast doubts on the succession of the entire college of bishops of every Apostolic church.

So it is literally impossible to deny their validity if they meet other criteria set out by (in this case) the RC. Whether licit (according to the Latin understanding) is another matter, but there should be no doubt in their own understanding.

Michael