Traditional Anglican Communion Seeks Full Union With Rome

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geezerbob said:
About twenty years ago, when the the Episcopal Church first started ordaining women, the church split over the issue and three bishops and a number of parishes split and formed the Anglican church in the US (not sure what the official name was). In order to maintain their claimed apostolic succession, their rules required three bishops in order to ordain a new one. One of the bishops died before any new ones were named and each parish was then given the option of returning to the Episcopal Church or joining the Catholic Church. I don’t remember what the two remaining bishops decided to do nor do I know if they were married. One small parish in Columbia joined the Catholic Church, lock stock and barrel, or, more appropriately, building, grounds, (married) priest, and most of the congregation. They continued to use the Anglican rite until the death of the priest, which was the communion service from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, with minor changes. As far as I know, there were very few problems with the transition and, yes, they did change the sign to Catholic.
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I’m totally in favor of the TAC joining the Church, and I hope that the pope will recieve them.

Apostolicae Curae still stands though (it’s infallible) and the “priests” and “bishops” need to be ordained.

“Traditional Anglican bishop on a mission”
youtube.com/watch?v=FDGoBitd1vY
 
HenryV said:
Celibacy is not just a discipline, it has apostolic origins and the Eastern Churches just relaxed the law for priests, there has never been married bishops though.
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That is not accurate. Where is your authority for this statement?
 
The Amazon citation you give is completely meaningless without a specific reference to the actual language you’re relying on.

And if the good Cardinal did truly say that priestly celibacy is a matter of Church discipline, he was incorrect. It’s not. It’s purely a discipline; a wise one, to be sure, but still only a matter of Church discipline.

newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.ht
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=184554
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89362

Had you actually read the Catholic Encyclopedia entry you cited (and I cited), you’d see that celibacy was instituted because the Church in its wisdom believed it prudential for priests to maintain celibacy. That’s discipline.

Were celibacy truly a *doctrine *then the Eastern Churches would not be permitted to ordain married men, nor would married Anglican priests be permitted to become Latin rite priests under John Paul II’s Pastoral Provision in 1980 (see www.pastoralprovision.org)). This is because no Catholic is excused from acknowledging and following the doctrinal teachings of the Magisterium. The Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, and Anglican Use parishes returning to Rome, are not permitted any exceptions from true Church doctrine.
 
brittrossiter said:
The Amazon citation you give is completely meaningless without a specific reference to the actual language you’re relying on.

And if the good Cardinal did truly say that priestly celibacy is a matter of Church discipline, he was incorrect. It’s not. It’s purely a discipline; a wise one, to be sure, but still only a matter of Church discipline.

newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.ht
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=184554
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=89362

Had you actually read the Catholic Encyclopedia entry you cited (and I cited), you’d see that celibacy was instituted because the Church in its wisdom believed it prudential for priests to maintain celibacy. That’s discipline.

Were celibacy truly a *doctrine *then the Eastern Churches would not be permitted to ordain married men, nor would married Anglican priests be permitted to become Latin rite priests under John Paul II’s Pastoral Provision in 1980 (see www.pastoralprovision.org)). This is because no Catholic is excused from acknowledging and following the doctrinal teachings of the Magisterium. The Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, and Anglican Use parishes returning to Rome, are not permitted any exceptions from true Church doctrine.
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About the book by Cardinal Stickler.

“A wealth of information on the history of celibacy for the clergy of the Catholic Church-in the East and the West. Particularly impressive are his arguments showing that celibacy is necessarily connected to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is refreshing to find a book on celibacy that is rooted in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Magisterium.”
-Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J., Editor, Homiletic & Pastoral Review

There is not a dichtonomy between doctrine and discipline both come from Tradition.
 
HenryV said:
Celibacy is not just a discipline, it has apostolic origins and the Eastern Churches just relaxed the law for priests, there has never been married bishops though.
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That’s false. There were a number of married bishops in the early Church (leaving aside the case of St. Peter–I for one think that 1 Cor. 9:5 clearly indicates that St. Peter’s wife was still living at that point, but I know that Catholics have disputed this). Theoretically, at least in the later centuries, they were supposed to be living as brother and sister (as I believe married priests were as well, at least after the third or fourth century in the West). But your distinction between married priests and married bishops doesn’t work for the early Church, though it does work for the Orthodox Church since the Council of Trullo (or whichever council it was).

Edwin
 
I’d certainly agree with you that many priests in both the East and the West practiced celibacy for centuries, and still do to this day. But that does not make it doctrinal. Prudential, wise, imitative of Our Lord, in accordance with the teaching of St. Paul, yes, but not doctrinal, at least not until the Church defines it as such.
 
Contarini said:
That’s false. There were a number of married bishops in the early Church (leaving aside the case of St. Peter–I for one think that 1 Cor. 9:5 clearly indicates that St. Peter’s wife was still living at that point, but I know that Catholics have disputed this). Theoretically, at least in the later centuries, they were supposed to be living as brother and sister (as I believe married priests were as well, at least after the third or fourth century in the West). But your distinction between married priests and married bishops doesn’t work for the early Church, though it does work for the Orthodox Church since the Council of Trullo (or whichever council it was).

Edwin
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Please read the Cardinals book.

Of course Peter was married but you cannot know that he, after he was ordained had relations with his wife. I say he did not.

The council of Elvira says as much and is interpreted in that way by pope Pius XI. The African council of 390 says so too.
 
brittrossiter said:
I respectfully disagree with you. The Catholic Church is comprised of many different liturgical traditions, as any Byzantine, Melkite, or Maronite Catholic will tell you. In the specific case of Anglican congregations, the Holy Father has permitted other Anglican congregations in the U.S. to return to the Church as “Anglican Use” congregations and to continue using a somewhat modified form of their liturgy. See the website of the St. Thomas More society for more information: stthomasmoresociety.org/aboutSTMS.htm I hope that the same, or something similar, is possible with respect to these congregations.

I believe that this adds greatly to the richness of the Church. These people should in no way be encouraged to abandon their traditions and history.

He is and shall be.
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WOW, I totally agree.

I’m married to an Anglican and we practice the Catholic faith but every time my daughter and I go up for communion we have to leave my wife alone in the pew. I for one see very little reason the Traditional Anglicans cannot join our Universal Church and be recognized in the same way the Byzantine and others are also full members with their own traditions, provided they recognize the supreme authority of the Church, etc.
 
ProdigalSun said:
I don’t know what all the fuss is about. If they want to become Catholic then convert to Catholicism. If it is true that they almost Catholic, then it shouldn’t be that difficult for them. Join an RCIA class … get confirmed and recieve first communion.
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Yep, that’s what I did.

Maybe some might think that since it is an entire church that is converting that they should receive some sort of “fast track”, but as a former Episcopalian, I can say that there is still some formation to be accomplished with each of these Anglicans. So some period of study needs to occur.
 
MelanieAnne said:
Yep, that’s what I did.

Maybe some might think that since it is an entire church that is converting that they should receive some sort of “fast track”, but as a former Episcopalian, I can say that there is still some formation to be accomplished with each of these Anglicans. So some period of study needs to occur.
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I agree.

Along with a correct understanding of the role of the Papacy, there are also doctrinal matters in regard to Mary, and Purgatory among others. And since they have been seperated from Mother Church for close to 500 years now, there’s bound to be other elements of Protestant thought and theology that have crept in.
 
Catholic29 said:
I agree.

Along with a correct understanding of the role of the Papacy, there are also doctrinal matters in regard to Mary, and Purgatory among others. And since they have been seperated from Mother Church for close to 500 years now, there’s bound to be other elements of Protestant thought and theology that have crept in.
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In the case of Episcopalians like me (well, as I USED to be) there’s transubstantiation, which is the most important concept of all. No matter how different Episcopalian is from Anglican, I seem to remember that the belief/lack of belief in transubstantiation is the same for both, a major distinguishing characteristic from Catholicism that pales in comparison to anything else. So it certainly has to be the most critical doctrine to overcome when converting to Catholicism.

There’s work to do in conversion and I have a hard time believing it can be done on the “group” or “express” basis!
 
This thread put me into research mode. What I found:
  • Dialog has between the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church started about 39 years ago.
  • About 20 yrs ago, when the decision to allow women priests was made by the Anglican Church the dialog was severely damaged.
  • About 13 yrs ago, the Traditional Anglican Church (TAC), which had separated from Canterbury over women being ordained, entered into there own dialog with the Catholic Church.
  • In 2005, the TAC requested Intercommunion with the Catholic Church. I could not find what came of this.
  • The TAC service is very similar to the Tridentine mass, with the exception of being in the venacular.
  • The TAC claims to maintain Apostolic succession, but I could not determine how this is maintained.
  • The TAC accepts the transubstantiation, Marian doctorine, no birth control, right to life, marriage between one man and one woman only, communion of saints, etc.
  • It appears that the married TAC Bishops will step down as Bishops and remain as priests.
  • It appears that the TAC has adopted the Catholic church teachings on marriage. Most likely this was a recent change (within the last 20 years), which would mean there are issues related to divorce and remarriage to address. I was not able to determine how TAC Bishops, priests that have been divorced will be addressed and how laity that have been divorced and remarried will be addressed when the TAC comes into full communion.
I visited many TAC websites during my research. I found most of them reminded me of TLM parishes. The most informative web site was stmaryoftheangels.org/index.html.

With all my research, I believe that the TAC coming into full communion with the Catholic Church will be a gift for the Catholic Church. The TAC faithful are very orthodox. An additional gift would be the TAC being allowed to use the Anglican mass after entering into full communion. The mass retains the reverence of TLM while being in vernacular.

:gopray2: :signofcross:Holy Spirit, please give the leaders of TAC and the Catholic Church the wisdom to overcome the hurdles that remain for the TAC to enter into full communion. When the TAC enters into full communion through your guidance, all Christians one step closer to being one Church as Christ intended his Church to be. :amen::signofcross:
 
Thanks Cobbfmly!

I thought they already believed in transubstantiation. I wonder what other Marian doctorines they ascribe to if any beyond her being the Mother of God? Then there are the issues of Purgatory, and intercession of the Saints.

Makes my head swim thinking about it…:whacky:
 
ProdigalSun said:
Are you saying the church should just say "great… a whole congregation wants to join the church so let’s slap the name Roman on the front and wish them well.

Peace!
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No, they are not saying that… but if the Straw Man works for ya…

In fact dozens of congregations have come in en masse. These folks appear to be asking for an opportunity to do the same - they also appear willing to do it on Rome’s terms.

Prayers would be good at this time…
 
Catholic29 said:
I wonder if that fact (married bishops) alone invalidates their claim to apostolic succession and priesthood, and along with it most of their sacraments?
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NO.

In fact a married man can be validly - if illicitly - consecrated to the episcopacy.

In fact there was one married bishop (father of 7) at the Second Vatican Council - he was a reconciled ex-member of a schismatic Brazillian sect that had been reconciled to the Holy See.

Marriage alone does not invalidate the sacrament of Holy Orders for a man consecrated (even illicitly) to the order of bishop.

But in fact, the problem remains of the invalidity of Anglican orders…
 
I see this has a very positive sign. In fact, if this does happen, I see this as opening the gates for many more Anglicans to come back to the Catholic Church.

There is a TAC close to me. It will be interesting to what happens.
 
How wonderful that this Catholic body seeks reunion with the Holy See!
 
I just found out that the bishop interwiewed is an expriest who left the Church to get married.
 
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