Traditional Anglican Community Wants Unity

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It is also comparatively small. I really have no idea what their actual numbers are, but they might be smaller than the SSPX. I am sure their membership would grow by leaps if Roman Catholics were allowed to commune there.

Conservative Anglicanism (over most of the world, probably) is now dominated by Evangelicals, who really have more in common with Methodists than Roman Catholics. Anglo-Catholics are as likely to be liberal as conservative, and it seems that the rainbow crowd is attracted to the high church aspects of liturgy, more so than the low-church.

It looks like the TAC would be more at home in Roman Catholicism than in the future Anglican Communion, however that shakes out. But if they don’t make some kind of move I would bet that they will fade into history eventually.

Michael
I’ve noticed an inverse relationship between theology and liturgics among the Episcopalians by and large: one church I went too for a Tridium was all Gregorian chant (including the Latin!). It’s congregtion was almost entirely (at least 80%) gay men, including the “married,” and the assistant “priest” was living with his “husband” in the rectory. The senior priest (who had a low tolerance to what happened to his church) retired later and became a deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Yes, they had better get off the fence. Soon.

Of course, I wouldn’t mind those whose liturgics and theology is on the same page would go Western Rite Orthodox.
 
I’ve noticed an inverse relationship between theology and liturgics among the Episcopalians by and large: one church I went too for a Tridium was all Gregorian chant (including the Latin!). It’s congregtion was almost entirely (at least 80%) gay men, including the “married,” and the assistant “priest” was living with his “husband” in the rectory. The senior priest (who had a low tolerance to what happened to his church) retired later and became a deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Yes, they had better get off the fence. Soon.

Of course, I wouldn’t mind those whose liturgics and theology is on the same page would go Western Rite Orthodox.
On that latter point, of course you wouldn’t Isa…

But while it is true that certain urban parishes with high-liturgy sensibilities are prone to value the production values of traditional liturgy this isn’t to say that this is the norm for such “high-church” communities.

Let’s face it, when Hollywood wants to create and present recongnizable Catholic imagery, cassocks, traditional churches, religious in habits, nice vestments are almost always used.

That such a gay-oriented community of many ex-Catholics (likely) and folks who grew up with images of Catholicism that were beautiful and wanted to emulate them, should not indicate to us that all such parishes are “high church, low theology.”
 
I’ve noticed an inverse relationship between theology and liturgics among the Episcopalians by and large: one church I went too for a Tridium was all Gregorian chant (including the Latin!). It’s congregtion was almost entirely (at least 80%) gay men, including the “married,” and the assistant “priest” was living with his “husband” in the rectory. The senior priest (who had a low tolerance to what happened to his church) retired later and became a deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Yes, they had better get off the fence. Soon.

Of course, I wouldn’t mind those whose liturgics and theology is on the same page would go Western Rite Orthodox.
Anglicans really differ. Not only do you have the “High Church/Low Church” distinction in Liturgy, these divisions are further divided by theology. Those groups that are looking to enter into the Catholic Church are usually sound in their orthodoxy and liturgy. These are mostly the Anglo-Catholic groups.
 
In my personal opinion, I think Rome should just give them their own Rite. They are just as big, if not bigger than a few of the Eastern Rites. Also this would go far in helping to convert Traditional Anglicans.
The last time something similar to this happened, the parishes which joined the Catholic Church retained the Anglican rite, but only until their priest retired or died. Whether this larger group will be treated any differently remains to be seen.
 
The last time something similar to this happened, the parishes which joined the Catholic Church retained the Anglican rite, but only until their priest retired or died. Whether this larger group will be treated any differently remains to be seen.
Actually GB, I don’t believe that is true. I believe there are now 8 AU parishes in the US and at least two maintained the BDW after their pastor retired or died. I know one was closed… I do not know the details of that at all.

I have every reason to believe these parishes - which generally enjoy a good deal of interest in the communities where they reside - will continue to celebrate the AU Mass for some time to come.
 
The last time something similar to this happened, the parishes which joined the Catholic Church retained the Anglican rite, but only until their priest retired or died. Whether this larger group will be treated any differently remains to be seen.
Actually GB, I don’t believe that is true. I believe there are now 8 AU parishes in the US and at least two maintained the BDW after their pastor retired or died. I know one was closed… I do not know the details of that at all.
That’s a surprise, because it was not supposed to happen AFAIK.
I have every reason to believe these parishes - which generally enjoy a good deal of interest in the communities where they reside - will continue to celebrate the AU Mass for some time to come.
One might have that wish, but as I understand it they are supposed to adopt the standard latin liturgy when the pastor leaves.

Inrterestingly, I saw something a while back that made me think one of the bigger AU parishes in Texas had initiated the full Tridentine liturgy :ehh: . I am sure that it is very dignified.
 
Wonderful. The ONE TRUE CHURCH is growing with good fruits while IMHO false fruits are falling by the wayside.
 
That’s a surprise, because it was not supposed to happen AFAIK. One might have that wish, but as I understand it they are supposed to adopt the standard latin liturgy when the pastor leaves.
I may have been misinformed by the members of these parishes that I have spoken with.

Per chance to clear this up you could share with us this provision that the AUM is dependent on the pastor?
 
I am encouraged by the fact of the TAC’s petition, but I will withhold my optimism until we see its fruits. We haven’t actually seen the text of the petition, so who knows if they are placing conditions on their conversion or something like that.
There is one way around this though, that is the married priest issue. Rome could create an Anglican Rite Church with its own hierarchy and allow it its own rules. The Anglican Use could become a full Rite.
Anglican liturgical practices are preserved in the Anglican Use Liturgy.

What Anglican spirituality needs to be preserved that is different from Western Catholic spirituality with out being heresy?
Even the Mozarabic rite and the Milanese/Ambrosian rite are still considered fully Roman Catholic. They are remnants of ancient churches dying away and both have deep roots in the first centuries of Christianity as original churches. Anglicanism has no such claim to make, it’s roots in Britannic-Celtic Christianity disappeared long ago, and what’s left is a form of the Frankish-Latin church practice, very much the standard issue rite for the west.

Michael
I know that’s a lot of quotes, but I think they bring out interesting points in the discussion of setting up either an independent rite or even a church sui iuris. I think the idea of their own church is entirely out of the question - their history is simply not the same as the other churches, and their theology and spirituality do not differ significantly enough from the rest of the Latin Church. As David pointed out, it’s almost entirely a question of liturgy, and Michael gives good examples of far more venerable and distinctive rites within the Latin Church that, despite their distinctiveness, have not warranted the erection of a separate church.

I also think granting the AU status as its own rite would be ill-advised. If we have a rite we need to be able to identify which priests are allowed to celebrate it, which is why our other distinctive rites (or uses, if that’s how we want to refer to the rites of the religious orders) are attached to particular jurisdictions - be they defined territory (like the area designated in the dioceses of Milan and Toledo) or communities (Dominicans, Praemonstratensians, etc.). If we’re not erecting the TAC as its own church, where would that definition come from?

Furthermore, speculation as to retaining the AU as an independent rite raises the question as to whether a Protestantization of Catholic worship is worth keeping around - even though it has been cleaned up to eliminate outright heresy and ensure validity, we’re talking about a liturgy that was intentionally altered so as not to be Catholic. Is it really wise to be raising such a creation to the same level as the ancient liturgies of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Byzantium, and Babylon? What message would we be sending to the faithful of these rites by establishing a permanent structure to presere the AU on the same level?

And that, I think, brings us back around to my initial worry. I don’t think the TAC should be created as an independent jurisdiction within the Church or even an independent rite, but those may be precisely the terms upon which it is requesting full communion. What will happen if such terms are not met? Will the TAC - or at least the majority of it - be just as committed to full communion if that means being assimilated into the rest of the Latin Church? We simply need to wait this one out and see what happens.
 
I also think granting the AU status as its own rite would be ill-advised. If we have a rite we need to be able to identify which priests are allowed to celebrate it, which is why our other distinctive rites (or uses, if that’s how we want to refer to the rites of the religious orders) are attached to particular jurisdictions - be they defined territory (like the area designated in the dioceses of Milan and Toledo) or communities (Dominicans, Praemonstratensians, etc.). If we’re not erecting the TAC as its own church, where would that definition come from?
But this problem already exists within the Latin Catholic Church.

There are the handful of Anglican Use parishes out there under the local Latin ordinary. There are some, and soon to be more thanks to the Motu Proprio, parishes under the local Latin ordinary that celebrate the Extraordinary From only. And lets not forget the four Byzantine Russian Catholic parishes that also fall under the local Latin ordinaries.

The bishops in these places must make sure that these parishes have properly trained individuals to staff them. Granted, the Anglican Use is setup to die out but there was a new parish erected in Scranton, PA, not long ago.

So given this, I could see the Anglican Use becoming a Rite.
 
Furthermore, speculation as to retaining the AU as an independent rite raises the question as to whether a Protestantization of Catholic worship is worth keeping around - even though it has been cleaned up to eliminate outright heresy and ensure validity, we’re talking about a liturgy that was intentionally altered so as not to be Catholic. Is it really wise to be raising such a creation to the same level as the ancient liturgies of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Byzantium, and Babylon? What message would we be sending to the faithful of these rites by establishing a permanent structure to presere the AU on the same level?
👍 👍 But then on the hand we have the modern Roman liturgy. Not that it is a Protestant-isation, but it doesn’t exactly have a venerable history that puts it on par with other ancient liturgies (though in a way, it could be argued that a lot of its elements are present in the pre-Gallicianised Roman liturgy and that its derives material from ancient sacramentaries, etc., etc., etc. unlike most of the earlier Anglican Prayerbooks. But you know what I mean).

I think the primary objective of having an Anglican Use liturgy was in order to ease a transition of Anglicans into the Church by retaining elements they would have been familiar with while sufficiently establishing the doctrinal points (for example, through the obligatory Canon). That was the reason why it was based on the 1979 BCP of the US Episcopalians (as opposed to, say, one of the hybrid missals or the 1928 BCP beloved of a certain conservatives)

I’m also curious as to what will be done with the ex-Roman Catholic clergy who left the Church to join the TAC.
 
Furthermore, speculation as to retaining the AU as an independent rite raises the question as to whether a Protestantization of Catholic worship is worth keeping around
The claim can be made that the Anglican Use Liturgy is more Catholic than the NO. I know many Traditional Catholics who can’t find a TLM close attend these Masses for this very reason. Coming from a protestant background, it seems more Catholic to me.
 
But this problem already exists within the Latin Catholic Church.

There are the handful of Anglican Use parishes out there under the local Latin ordinary. There are some, and soon to be more thanks to the Motu Proprio, parishes under the local Latin ordinary that celebrate the Extraordinary From only. And lets not forget the four Byzantine Russian Catholic parishes that also fall under the local Latin ordinaries.

The bishops in these places must make sure that these parishes have properly trained individuals to staff them. Granted, the Anglican Use is setup to die out but there was a new parish erected in Scranton, PA, not long ago.

So given this, I could see the Anglican Use becoming a Rite.
I was really thinking more in terms of the prospective problem of bringing in 400,000 members of the TAC and however many priests they have/it takes to serve them. As things are, 8 AU parishes (and thus probably only 8 AU priests, but even at two priests per parish this would only be 16 priests) is something manageable on an ad hoc level. We basically have a handful indults to say a curious liturgy. Adding a thousand parishes would greatly complicate things, and since they would be spread out within all sorts of territories, it could be messy. I’m not saying it would be impossible, but it would definitely be unwieldy without a specific canonical arrangement of AU priests.
👍 👍 But then on the hand we have the modern Roman liturgy. Not that it is a Protestant-isation, but it doesn’t exactly have a venerable history that puts it on par with other ancient liturgies (though in a way, it could be argued that a lot of its elements are present in the pre-Gallicianised Roman liturgy and that its derives material from ancient sacramentaries, etc., etc., etc. unlike most of the earlier Anglican Prayerbooks. But you know what I mean).

I’m also curious as to what will be done with the ex-Roman Catholic clergy who left the Church to join the TAC.
I think part of Benedict XVI’s grand plan is precisely to fix the ordinary form of the liturgy so that it no longer stands out as a modern fabrication but is slowly transformed into an authentic development of ancient liturgy. So I think you are right on track when you say we could just as well ask whether the OF should be kept around, and I think many, the pope included, would say “Not as it currently is.”

As for the ex-Roman clergy, I suspect the terms of the pastoral provision will apply; we don’t ordain married ex-Romans to the priesthood, but only those who began their spiritual lives outside of full communion. Who knows, maybe Rome will soften for them, but that would set a very dangerous precedent because you know it would raise the question “Why not for us, too?” We don’t want a back door to a married presbyterate. Either we set it up on our own terms or make sure the exceptions are clearly defined and not easily abused.
 
As for the ex-Roman clergy, I suspect the terms of the pastoral provision will apply; we don’t ordain married ex-Romans to the priesthood, but only those who began their spiritual lives outside of full communion. Who knows, maybe Rome will soften for them, but that would set a very dangerous precedent because you know it would raise the question “Why not for us, too?” We don’t want a back door to a married presbyterate. Either we set it up on our own terms or make sure the exceptions are clearly defined and not easily abused.
I definitely agree here. The Church should not budge on allowing ex-Roman priests who joined the TAC to come back in as priests. This would set a dangerous precedent indeed.
 
The claim can be made that the Anglican Use Liturgy is more Catholic than the NO. I know many Traditional Catholics who can’t find a TLM close attend these Masses for this very reason. Coming from a protestant background, it seems more Catholic to me.
SF, I feel that it is more a matter of the reverence with which the liturgy is conducted- ad orientem et al - that makes it seem “more Catholic” rather than the text itself. Your thoughts?
 
I’m going to join this thread because I sing with an angelican at a city choir and her church sounds very Catholic like, but my spiritual director doesn’t want me to visit so I will wait and ask her what she knows of any changes. She is a long ago Catholic.
D.
 
I was really thinking more in terms of the prospective problem of bringing in 400,000 members of the TAC and however many priests they have/it takes to serve them.
I am perplexed…

I cannot find anything to verify this figure of 400,000.

If (as I suspect) the average parish membership is around 500 persons it would require 800 parishes and pastors. That seems very unrealistic to me.

Now I can see that some parishes might have 2,000 to 5,000 active members, but that is extraordinary in the United States even in the Episcopal church (TEC). How many TAC parishes would be so large?

I don’t see it.

Michael
 
As for the ex-Roman clergy, I suspect the terms of the pastoral provision will apply; we don’t ordain married ex-Romans to the priesthood, but only those who began their spiritual lives outside of full communion. Who knows, maybe Rome will soften for them, but that would set a very dangerous precedent because you know it would raise the question “Why not for us, too?” We don’t want a back door to a married presbyterate. Either we set it up on our own terms or make sure the exceptions are clearly defined and not easily abused.
I find this thread very interesting as it shows the friction between the big picture of bringing home separated breathren (their clergy and their flock) vs. the short-term dilemma of precedent or percieved waffling on a fundamental discipline.

Is this an option: Because these former RC clergy were validly ordained (inviolable Mark) and it is their marriage that was illicit, the Church could deny them priestly faculties upon readmission, allow them to validate their vows of marriage, and give them faculties equal to a permanent deacon?

Secondly, we have a priest shortage. Essentially faculties of priest and deacon differ on two major areas: Consecrating the Eucharist/Presiding at Mass and Confession. Otherwise, Deacon’s can do anything else a Priest can do including being an Administor (not Pastor) of a parish. The Confession is easily handled by just going down the street to the Catholic Church on Saturday afternoons. But the Mass issue is not. Is it an option to allow them to have an expanded Communion Service in lieu of Mass as an interim liturgy (based on either the Anglican or Catholic liturgy), have that fulfill Sunday Mass obligation until they have sufficient ordinations from within their tradition or RC priests are assigned to their parish.
 
According to the TAC’s website, the following are member churches:

Africa The Anglican Church in Southern Africa - Traditional Rite
The Church of Umzi Wase Tiyopia
The Continuing Anglican Church in Zambia

The Americas
T****he Anglican Church in America
The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada
The Missionary Diocese of Central America

The Missionary Diocese of Puerto Rico

Asia
The Anglican Church of India
The Orthodox Church of Pakistan
The Nippon Kirisuto Sei Ko Kai (Japan)


Australia
The Anglican Catholic Church of Australia
The Church of Torres Strait

Europe
The Traditional Anglican Church (England)
The Church of Ireland - Traditional Rite


Being a reader of The Christian Challenge for the past 25 years, I am familiar with some of these groups and membership in nearly all of them is extremely small. Anglicans, particularly Continuing Anglicans, love to consecrate bishops and designate jurisdictions, just as they love to have huge numbers in the sanctuary and seated in choir–sometimes in greater numbers than are seated in the pews. But these clerical numbers and organizational titles tend to obscure the fact that many, if not most of these parishes and chapels are tiny and frequently in rented or borrowed facilities.

I say this not to cast aspersions, but to point out that the numbers are small. The 400,000 figure comes from the TAC website and is a very optimistic figure based on who knows what. In any event, it is an aggregate number from a federation of national and regional churches, and not merely the number of members within a single body. The mere fact that there are so many jurisdictions and provinces complicates the issue. The situation from jurisdiction to jurisdiction varies greatly.

While most of these groups are Anglo-Catholic in churchmanship, not all are. Even among those who are, beliefs vary widely. Some allow belief in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption and their members celebrate these feasts with great devotion, while a few others are still shocked at such “Roman accretions.” None of the groups require assent to these two doctrines, as the Roman Catholic Church does. The group most similar to us, particularly with respect to the Marian dogmas, the Anglican Catholic Church in the USA, refused to join the Anglica Church in America and thus the TAC.

These is a dedicated and courageous group, but I am not sure that the widely varying circumstances will lend themselves to much in terms of reunion.
 
SF, I feel that it is more a matter of the reverence with which the liturgy is conducted- ad orientem et al - that makes it seem “more Catholic” rather than the text itself. Your thoughts?
I agree with this statement. I think if the NO was celebrated ad orientem, with incense, traditional hymns, communion at the “rail” and on the tongue, and used boys only as altar servers, then it would look much like Rite 2 of the Anglican Use. However Rite 1 uses Elizabethan English and that is much more reverant than today’s jargon IMHO, so it would still have this “benefit” over the NO. Since the NO is RARELY celebrated like this, I can’t help but think that the Anglican Use Liturgy is more Catholic, especially when that liturgy is rarely, if ever, celebrated with the blandness that infects most NO Masses.
 
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