Traditional Catholicism and Genesis/Evolution

[NicPais83]

Evolution is the biggest nonsense in the history of the world. Evolution is in no way scientific. It is actually philosophy. It is the philosophy of atheistic materialism.

Genesis is literal. Pope Pius XII stated in Humanae Generis that Genesis pertains to history in a literal sense and that we all descended by a pair of original first parents.

I suggest everyone take a look at what Catholic creationist scientists have to say:

kolbecenter.org/

Catholic teaching is that we descended from an original pair of parents. To believe otherwise is a heresy. Now, Pope Pius XII never condemned evolution: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humani_Generis
What he did say is what the Church still holds. Simply that evolution could have happened, but must be looked at with the perspective that it is God’s methodology and that we ultimately are descended from one pair of parents, Adam and Eve, from whom we inherited the stain of original sin. If you are going to cite Pope Pius XII, please read the document that you are referring to, since it itself does not agree with you.

Now, whether or not evolution occurred is a scientific investigation. Science itself has some issue with evolution, namely with the amount of time it occurred in, and finding links from one species to the next. As a scientist (technically engineer), we know that even a theory isn’t necessarily infallible. Personally, I would downgrade evolution to a hypothesis since you can’t easily experimentally prove it, but that’s not my call to make.

 

[NicPais83]

Also, people need to understand the difference between what the science says and what society says. A common issue in the sciences is that society misinterprets what science says. A really big example is social darwinism. This is attributed to Darwin, but is no where to be found in his writings. In fact, much of what gets attributed to Darwin is not what he said. He never said that man evolved from apes. He never coined the phrase “survival of the fittest.”

We live in a time where people want science and religion to be at odds with each other. Many of the great scientists, however, explored science from a religious point of view: Mandel (Priest), Descartes (Priest), Da Vinci (Catholic), Newton (Anglican, dabbled in Anglican theology).

 

[impalass]

Also, people need to understand the difference between what the science says and what society says. A common issue in the sciences is that society misinterprets what science says. A really big example is social darwinism. This is attributed to Darwin, but is no where to be found in his writings. In fact, much of what gets attributed to Darwin is not what he said. He never said that man evolved from apes. He never coined the phrase “survival of the fittest.”

We live in a time where people want science and religion to be at odds with each other. Many of the great scientists, however, explored science from a religious point of view: Mandel (Priest), Descartes (Priest), Da Vinci (Catholic), Newton (Anglican, dabbled in Anglican theology).

Its obvious that you have your opinion and I have mine. I don’t know where you are going with this darwin story.

You are catholic through family tradition. Just like your neighbors who might be jewish, muslim, hindu etc. All religious people of whatever faith have their teachings/traditions that tell them they are as right as you are. Thats why organized religion is the great divider. It doesn’t bring people together.

 

[NicPais83]

Its obvious that you have your opinion and I have mine. I don’t know where you are going with this darwin story.

You are catholic through family tradition. Just like your neighbors who might be jewish, muslim, hindu etc. All religious people of whatever faith have their teachings/traditions that tell them they are as right as you are. Thats why organized religion is the great divider. It doesn’t bring people together.

To tell you the truth, I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to saint rafael; that would explain why you might not understand where I am going with this. Please do not assume to know what I was thinking.

But, on a side note, I am really not all that sure where you are going yourself in your criticism of Catholicism in particular, religion in general when it comes to science. Why identify yourself as Catholic in your profile if you see organized religion as being evil?

And point out to me anywhere in any of my posts where I have made any comment at all condemning anyone’s religion? As a Catholic, I do believe that this is the one true faith, and I defend it and try to spread it as such, but I have never said anything criticizing Judaism or Islam or any other religion in this thread or on any other. I have honestly not brought them up at all.

 

[buffalo]

Thats why organized religion is the great divider. It doesn’t bring people together.

So I assume you would prefer dis-organized religion?

The bottom line is what religion contains the fullness of truth? They all cannot be equal for they all have varying amounts.

What fails to bring people together is pride and sin.

 

[impalass]

To tell you the truth, I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to saint rafael; that would explain why you might not understand where I am going with this. Please do not assume to know what I was thinking.

But, on a side note, I am really not all that sure where you are going yourself in your criticism of Catholicism in particular, religion in general when it comes to science. Why identify yourself as Catholic in your profile if you see organized religion as being evil?

And point out to me anywhere in any of my posts where I have made any comment at all condemning anyone’s religion? As a Catholic, I do believe that this is the one true faith, and I defend it and try to spread it as such, but I have never said anything criticizing Judaism or Islam or any other religion in this thread or on any other. I have honestly not brought them up at all.

The question on this forum is catholocism and Genesis/evolution.   Its a debate about the subject   If everyone on this forum has the same opinion whats the point of the forum.  I have never been afraid to say that I am like a lot of catholics don't believe a lot thats taught.   eg;  church teaches and from the bishops council that divorced catholics are not allowed to receive holy communion but they are still allowed to go mass.   I know a lot of divorced catholics including a brother and sister of mine that go to communion every time they are at mass. 

 You believe the church is one faith........I don't.  I am not afraid to ask questions and question the church.  Most catholics are like this.

  I never said religion is evil.  I said it divides people, and it does.  I am sure you have many friends or some relatives who might be protestant. People are protestant most likely by family tradition.  Same with catholics.  You probably like me were only taught one faith growing up.  Kinda brain cleansing.  The pope says protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches.   Do you tell your friends and relatives what the pope says.  You say you spread the word. 

 The pope is alienating himself from main stream catholics.  The polls don't lie.  Today most catholics don't even go to mass and those that do go once a month.  Only the right wing conservatives still go weekly, and their numbers are dwindling quickly.  When I was growing up back in the 50s 60s  about 85% catholics attended mass weekly, now its less then 25%.   Times are a changing.

 

[buffalo]

  I

The pope is alienating himself from main stream catholics. The polls don’t lie. Today most catholics don’t even go to mass and those that do go once a month. Only the right wing conservatives still go weekly, and their numbers are dwindling quickly. When I was growing up back in the 50s 60s about 85% catholics attended mass weekly, now its less then 25%. Times are a changing.

Here is the problem - the Pope or the Church does not have any authority to change Christ’s teachings to suit our whims. The Church has no authority to change the truth.

The Pope is teaching what he shoudl be teaching.

Catholics just do not want to hear it.

 

[NicPais83]

The question on this forum is catholocism and Genesis/evolution. Its a debate about the subject If everyone on this forum has the same opinion whats the point of the forum. I have never been afraid to say that I am like a lot of catholics don’t believe a lot thats taught. eg; church teaches and from the bishops council that divorced catholics are not allowed to receive holy communion but they are still allowed to go mass. I know a lot of divorced catholics including a brother and sister of mine that go to communion every time they are at mass.

 You believe the church is one faith........I don't.  I am not afraid to ask questions and question the church.  Most catholics are like this.

  I never said religion is evil.  I said it divides people, and it does.  I am sure you have many friends or some relatives who might be protestant. People are protestant most likely by family tradition.  Same with catholics.  You probably like me were only taught one faith growing up.  Kinda brain cleansing.  The pope says protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches.   Do you tell your friends and relatives what the pope says.  You say you spread the word. 

 The pope is alienating himself from main stream catholics.  The polls don't lie.  Today most catholics don't even go to mass and those that do go once a month.  Only the right wing conservatives still go weekly, and their numbers are dwindling quickly.  When I was growing up back in the 50s 60s  about 85% catholics attended mass weekly, now its less then 25%.   Times are a changing.

Well, I am one who asks that everytime you make any statement about what most Catholics are like, that you provide numbers, and the appropriate citation that backs up your claim. I have never appologized for what the Pope has said or will say. I don’t see any reason to. But you seem to have the mistaken impression that the Church is a democracy. It is not. As for divorced Catholics going to Communion, there is nothing that says that they cannot go to Communion assuming that they are not remarried without a declaration of nullity. Without that, they are presumed to be married to their first spouse.

Here’s the problem though. You at least come off as though you do not know why you’re Catholic, other than being raised that way, and it comes out in the fact that you don’t sound like you understand the reasoning for when it is or isn’t appropriate to receive Communion. Do you believe that it is the Body and Blood of Christ or not? This sounds to me like the root of the problem here, that it appears to me that you don’t really know what we believe. This is not a religion that you can join or be born into and are automatically saved. You have to work at it. As for what the Pope said, I ask that you actually read the document, because the Pope does not say that Protestants are defective people. My own salvation has nothing at all to do with the fact that I was born Catholic. It has to do with the fact that I am Catholic and try hard to follow the Church. But if you have so much animosity towards the faith, it appears you gave up that aspect of yourself years ago.

 

[dconklin]

Evolution is the biggest nonsense in the history of the world. Evolution is in no way scientific. It is actually philosophy. It is the philosophy of atheistic materialism.

Genesis is literal. Pope Pius XII stated in Humanae Generis that Genesis pertains to history in a literal sense and that we all descended by a pair of original first parents.

I suggest everyone take a look at what Catholic creationist scientists have to say:

kolbecenter.org/

Are you sure that is what Humanae says?
[SIGN]Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. [/SIGN]

 

[PrayforMallory]

Are you sure that is what Humanae says?
[SIGN]Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. [/SIGN]

You know, the above statement by Pius XII really summarizes things well. It would seem pretty unassailable from my standpoint.

Thanks to everyone on this thread.

 

[thistle]

Thistle: You say “The church does not teach we have to take everything in the bible literally”…

Poll 1000 catholics at random about whats in the bible and you will get a lot of different beliefs/answers.   That makes the bible today irrelevant.  In a belief system  consistency is extrememly important.   So what you are saying is the bible has many fiction stories but what is fiction and what is real?

The parables Jesus told were fiction stories in order to teach.

 

[buffalo]

The parables Jesus told were fiction stories in order to teach.

However, they were clearly identified as such.

 

[thistle]

However, they were clearly identified as such.

Where?

By the way we are not obliged to believe that creation was done in 6 days (meaning 24 hour periods).
All we are required to believe is that God created the universe out of nothing.

 

[buffalo]

Where?

By the way we are not obliged to believe that creation was done in 6 days (meaning 24 hour periods).
All we are required to believe is that God created the universe out of nothing.

Read the parables - they are introduced as such.

 

[buffalo]

Where?

By the way we are not obliged to believe that creation was done in 6 days (meaning 24 hour periods).
All we are required to believe is that God created the universe out of nothing.

There are some related dogma’s that we are required to believe.

1. 
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)

 

[Anacharius]

In Genesis Chapter 6 verse 4 me thinks, it mentions people from the land of the giant’s.What do you good folks think is going to happen eventually when one isn’t in the sight and or Present of God or got separated thru no fault of their own or by their choice based on bad advice??? Those good folks are going to evolve from something, it had better be from one of us than some creature that is incapable of reasoning.

 

[thistle]

There are some related dogma’s that we are required to believe.

1. 
   *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
   *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
   *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
   *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
   *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
   *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
   *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
   *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
   *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
   *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
   *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
   *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)

1. 
   I was only talking about the actual beginning to make the point we are not obliged to believe God created the universe in 6 literal days of 24 hour periods.