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BertBlyleven
Guest
Witnessing the sacrifice of the Mass and receiving Our Lord is never worthless…
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Luvtosew
Guest
I didn’t say that I said
not understanding a word they say is totally worthless to me, I never said receiving the blood and body of Jesus is worthless!!!
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BertBlyleven
Guest
You actually said “going to a mass and not understanding a word they say is totally worthless to me”…I’m just joking around, I know that isn’t what you meant
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trickster
Guest
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trickster
Guest
Hi BertBlyleven…yeah, glad to know your joking as LuvtoSew makes very good points…there are many of us who, while we respect and welcome the inclusion of the extraordinary Mass - and I like going to them once in a while - I find masses that speak to the low christology (“Jesus Among Us” and the ways of St. Francis) much more spiritually nourishing than the high christology approach of the traditional massYou actually said “going to a mass and not understanding a word they say is totally worthless to me”…I’m just joking around, I know that isn’t what you meant
We need both forms…and sometimes hearing the Mass in Latin is nourishing in the sense that I do feel not only a part of a universal or global church, but there is also a unity with many generations of Catholics through the 2000 year history…but still I am very much a post-Vatican II kind of “low christology” guy…
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
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Mike30
Guest
While I understand and appreciate your passion in this area, don’t you really think by now that these ideas of yours, which have absolutely nothing to do with Traditional Catholicism would be better served in either the Liturgy or Spirituality sections?
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Luvtosew
Guest
Well I don’t explain things well. Its like since I don’t know Spanish and if I was talking to someone speaking Spanish to me, I would be lost.You actually said “going to a mass and not understanding a word they say is totally worthless to me”…I’m just joking around, I know that isn’t what you meant
What I remember growing up thru high school we went to Cathedrals, the were long and skinnier (duh) than the newer Churches. It was hard to really hear anything unless you sat in the front which we never got there in time. The Chruches were always full. Yes they had missils but hard to keep up. It was almost like going through the motions I guess, sit, stand, kneel, and go up to confession which I might add took much longer, two lines and the rail up front.
Now Churches are different, the way they are built, we only have one Cathedrawl where I live and its a big area, I guess I like the English speaking Masses, and the Priest facing us, its easier to hear, the lighting is better. Although Cathedrawls are beautiful.
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BertBlyleven
Guest
Really? I couldn’t tell that’s how you felt based on your numerous other posts…Hi BertBlyleven…yeah, glad to know your joking as LuvtoSew makes very good points…there are many of us who, while we respect and welcome the inclusion of the extraordinary Mass - and I like going to them once in a while - I find masses that speak to the low christology (“Jesus Among Us” and the ways of St. Francis) much more spiritually nourishing than the high christology approach of the traditional mass
We need both forms…and sometimes hearing the Mass in Latin is nourishing in the sense that I do feel not only a part of a universal or global church, but there is also a unity with many generations of Catholics through the 2000 year history…but still I am very much a post-Vatican II kind of “low christology” guy…
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
St. Francis and his followers were the among the first to spread the Roman Rite (Gregorian, later called Tridentine Mass) outside of Rome. There is no difference in Christology between the two rites. Neither says Christ is with us or above us in the senses you mean. All parts of the Mass that would make the traditional rite seem “higher” are said silently. Only human error and abuse has created this difference (hand holding, “unoffensive” chapels and vestments, ICEL English, etc).
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TrueLight
Guest
Hi Trickster,
There is something I think is missing in in all your threads. It could be that I didn’t read all of the posts, because yes, my mind screams “pagan practices”.
However, I do see myself as somewhat of an open-minded person within boundaries.
Do you have a sort of list in your head of some of the indigenous “ways” for lack of a better word, or practices that COULD be applied to a Catholic mass? Would you consider posting them here?
It occurs to me that some additions to the liturgy in the OF may be fine for some people, but some may be objectionable.
The reason I keep making the distinction between the EF and OF (to answer your question from another post), is because the EF is based on the 1962 missal. However, there are different type of OF masses - some more traditional and some more flexible.
So if you could post a list of some additions you are thinking of, that would be great.
TL
There is something I think is missing in in all your threads. It could be that I didn’t read all of the posts, because yes, my mind screams “pagan practices”.
However, I do see myself as somewhat of an open-minded person within boundaries.
Do you have a sort of list in your head of some of the indigenous “ways” for lack of a better word, or practices that COULD be applied to a Catholic mass? Would you consider posting them here?
It occurs to me that some additions to the liturgy in the OF may be fine for some people, but some may be objectionable.
The reason I keep making the distinction between the EF and OF (to answer your question from another post), is because the EF is based on the 1962 missal. However, there are different type of OF masses - some more traditional and some more flexible.
So if you could post a list of some additions you are thinking of, that would be great.
TL
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Tsuwano
Guest
I think your post points to a very important point worth remembering. While many practices found within cultures different from European Roman culture may enhance the liturgy and enable people of different cultures to express their faith in forms more familiar to them, not all cultural practices conform to our faith or enhance our understanding of faith. Ultimately it is the worldwide Church and the Bishops, maintaining faith with our deepest beliefs, which must decide whether a particular cultural practice is in conformity with our faith.Hi Trickster,
There is something I think is missing in in all your threads. It could be that I didn’t read all of the posts, because yes, my mind screams “pagan practices”.
However, I do see myself as somewhat of an open-minded person within boundaries.
Do you have a sort of list in your head of some of the indigenous “ways” for lack of a better word, or practices that COULD be applied to a Catholic mass? Would you consider posting them here?
It occurs to me that some additions to the liturgy in the OF may be fine for some people, but some may be objectionable.
The reason I keep making the distinction between the EF and OF (to answer your question from another post), is because the EF is based on the 1962 missal. However, there are different type of OF masses - some more traditional and some more flexible.
So if you could post a list of some additions you are thinking of, that would be great.
TL
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HailHolyQueen90
Guest
Agreed.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
This obsession with ethnicity is truely a false argument. Unfortunately, most of the true North America aboriginal practices were eradicated in the 19th century, and that iss not the fault of anyone alive today; and what we have left is a hodpodge of Hollywood and modern political expediency. Very much like Wiccans who are modern pseudo-pagans with beliefs created out of someones immagination in modern times-much like many protestant sects. And to bring up what the Spaniards did hundreds of years ago has no bearing on what happened to Indians in North America. I don’t know what happened in Canada, but considering that Canada, except for Quebec (which really didn’t count), in the 19th and early 20th century was politically and socially Church of England, I doubt that Catholics forced conversion on the Canadian Indians !
I am open to change my mind if you can document such actions…and I don’t mean a newspaper or magazine article, I mean something that would stand up to academic historical or Legal standards-not political blather.
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trickster
Guest
Hail. Holy Queen person…have you had a chance to go over what has been said on this thread…what do you base your agreement on? Thanks…look forward to your response…
Bruce
Trickster
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trickster
Guest
Hi True Light…I have not gotten to the point of thinking about specific things…right now I am working on the philosophical and theological context for such a process…I am working on a project in the new year which will involve asking the community about what are shared spiritual values and woring with the community to create a context for a commuinty service (not a mass just a service) that is more of a creative project and an inter-denominaional type thing…so in the future, one of the thing that I want to do to get to the point where you are at is ;Hi Trickster,
There is something I think is missing in in all your threads. It could be that I didn’t read all of the posts, because yes, my mind screams “pagan practices”.
However, I do see myself as somewhat of an open-minded person within boundaries.
Do you have a sort of list in your head of some of the indigenous “ways” for lack of a better word, or practices that COULD be applied to a Catholic mass? Would you consider posting them here?
It occurs to me that some additions to the liturgy in the OF may be fine for some people, but some may be objectionable.
The reason I keep making the distinction between the EF and OF (to answer your question from another post), is because the EF is based on the 1962 missal. However, there are different type of OF masses - some more traditional and some more flexible.
So if you could post a list of some additions you are thinking of, that would be great.
TL
- Work with my diocese to have the explanation, histories and symbolisms that are inherent in our existing mass
- Find similar images, ideas, concepts that could be put on the table from the aboriginal perspective and see if there are ways we can pull it together.
- Have a discussion on each of those ideas and work in partnership with our diocese to have a set of symbolism, music, form, etc., that will continue he 2000 year old history and meanign of the mass and create a place of reverence, etc., as wel decide what aboriginal elements we can call into service of the masss
So yes I agree with you and I will be sure to do that when I get there…in the meantime I am working on the context of aboriginal thelogy and how it is in conversation with Catholic teaching, spirituality and worshiop…
Bruce
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ILikeToBeCathol
Guest
The Spanish were not always Catholic you know… They converted… Sure it was centuries before but still… I’m Russian and Russia has only been Christian since like the 10th century and before that they were pagans but gave that up to serve the true Lord.
I am a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism though and at first I was going to the Novus Ordo Mass until I found out that there is the Traditional Latin Mass in my diocese which excited me so much that I called up the priest there to receive convert instruction from him. The reason I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo Mass is because I feel a much more respect among the people there for the Blessed Sacrament… We kneel while receiving Holy Communion and hold clothe under our mouth to make sure that no particle of the Host falls on the ground and we also receive Holy Communion exclusively on the tongue… Reason being… Since that is truly, really and substantially the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ we want to make sure that we receive each particle on none of it falls on the ground. When people receive Holy Communion on the hand particles rub off onto the hand and then after the communicant receives the Host he/she will most likely not notice the remaining particle(s) on his/her hand and it can fall on the ground where it can be trampled on. I also don’t quite understand the need for extraordinary ministers or the Eucharist… I know that they were put there on occasions where there were a lot of people but then it became an every Sunday kind of thing.
I’d suggest that you go hear the Traditional Latin Mass (if you haven’t already)… You might actually like it… The Traditional Latin Mass played a big part in my conversion to the Catholic faith and I’m sure it has for many other people… Because when some people when see the Novus Ordo Mass they might see Protestantism but when they see the Traditional Latin Mass they see something… Well… Extraordinary and that attracts people… And that’s what we want… We want everyone to be saved, right? Salvation is what the Church is here for.
God love you
Pax Christi
While I didnt read the thread in its entirety, the Church before the Second Vatican Council did inculturate the Mass for the aboriginal peoples with the so-called “Indian Masses”. Of course I don’t know for sure if this was done for your particular Nation, but traditional Catholicism has precedent for much of what you describe.
mysite.verizon.net/driadzbubl/IndianMasses/GeneralCharacteristics.html
Not saying that it should be revived, but it most certainly can be looked at again and adapted for current pastoral needs.
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MrSylvester
Guest
Trickster, alot of the gold which was used today and throughout the world was probably not the gold that was stolen from those natives. Even if it was, the Priests who accepted the gold can’t be exactly blamed because they either they didn’t know it was stolen or had no choice. Actually, the majority of Priests and religious in the new world opposed putting the Americans into slavery such as the Bishop of Gaudalupe and in 1600, King Philip III revoked alot of unjust laws and made slavery illegal.
It’d be wrong to say that the natives were utterly, absolutely oppressed. Personally, while Hernan Cortes did do some questionable things, he wanted to be peaceful with the natives and I view him either as anti-villain or anti-hero (don’t ask me to explain, search TV tropes for these terms
). The Priests actually found and created jobs for the natives and spread their religion. If there were forced conversions, it was only in times of war, like when Cortes made a war against a tribe of Aztecs… and he was aided by their other American enemies. The Aztecs were a very savage race and contrary to the myth of the noble savage, they weren’t noble at all; they performed human sacrifice by the load, they constantly waged war against their neighbours, etc… obviously, this doesn’t run in the family as upbringging makes the man (duh!). However, the Church condemned forced conversion; and without the Church, we wouldn’t have America as it is today. We wouldn’t have the nation of Mexico. Worse, no Mexico means no burritto’s, no quesadillas or something no…
…tacos. Oh man, now I’m hungry! I wish you could just e-mail food instead of having to cook it yourself!
It’d be wrong to say that the natives were utterly, absolutely oppressed. Personally, while Hernan Cortes did do some questionable things, he wanted to be peaceful with the natives and I view him either as anti-villain or anti-hero (don’t ask me to explain, search TV tropes for these terms
). The Priests actually found and created jobs for the natives and spread their religion. If there were forced conversions, it was only in times of war, like when Cortes made a war against a tribe of Aztecs… and he was aided by their other American enemies. The Aztecs were a very savage race and contrary to the myth of the noble savage, they weren’t noble at all; they performed human sacrifice by the load, they constantly waged war against their neighbours, etc… obviously, this doesn’t run in the family as upbringging makes the man (duh!). However, the Church condemned forced conversion; and without the Church, we wouldn’t have America as it is today. We wouldn’t have the nation of Mexico. Worse, no Mexico means no burritto’s, no quesadillas or something no…
…tacos. Oh man, now I’m hungry! I wish you could just e-mail food instead of having to cook it yourself!
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MrSylvester
Guest
Likewise, African Americans are descended from a man. Their culture may be interesting to some, just as Chinese and European culture is to others but it shouldn’t enter religion. In terms of food, clothing and non-religious traditions, culture is good, butif you’re Catholic, you can’t adore the false gods of other religions. You can read stories what these gods did and read Aztec history, maybe even write a book about it; hell, I’m researching Celtic mythology to write a book on King Arthur to get over my writers block. But its just for fun; I don’t beleive Celtic mythology is real or that it is good, its just interesting.
So no, we can’'t introduce sweet grass. I don’t which novus ordo mass did that but the Church before Vatican II certainly wouldn’t have done that and if it did, it would only have been used as incense which is good, though certainly not as an honor or tribute to false gods. If every Catholic Church in every country took cultural themes from that country, it’d break the Church’s unity as one culture.
So no, we can’'t introduce sweet grass. I don’t which novus ordo mass did that but the Church before Vatican II certainly wouldn’t have done that and if it did, it would only have been used as incense which is good, though certainly not as an honor or tribute to false gods. If every Catholic Church in every country took cultural themes from that country, it’d break the Church’s unity as one culture.
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fred_conty
Guest
QUOTE
Laudate Dominum,
The majority of “Catholics” don’t believe in the Real Presence and disregard the evils
of contraception and abortifacients. They don’t see anything wrong with women “priests”
and homosexual “marriages”.
Is Holy Mother Church to “adapt” to these people?
Such an opinion, that the Church is to adapt to us and not we to her, is dangerous.
Not to mention the height of pride and arrogance.
UNQUOTE
Women “priests” and homosexual “marriages” are quite a different things(morals) than changing a song or a prayer or a language(rituals).
As we see, the church already has many different kinds(rituals) of Eucharistic services for
centuries:
Rites of Catholic Church
then it probably could be done with the proper permissions and approvals.
As far as chalices not being of gold, the inside must be gold, but the outside
covering or surface could be of some other material. I’m uncertain about the
base of the chalice but I wouldn’t be surprised if that could be of a different
material. It seems when I was very young, I saw silver chalices once in a while.
Just some thoughts.
Laudate Dominum,
The majority of “Catholics” don’t believe in the Real Presence and disregard the evils
of contraception and abortifacients. They don’t see anything wrong with women “priests”
and homosexual “marriages”.
Is Holy Mother Church to “adapt” to these people?
Such an opinion, that the Church is to adapt to us and not we to her, is dangerous.
Not to mention the height of pride and arrogance.
UNQUOTE
Women “priests” and homosexual “marriages” are quite a different things(morals) than changing a song or a prayer or a language(rituals).
As we see, the church already has many different kinds(rituals) of Eucharistic services for
centuries:
Rites of Catholic Church
- Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church
- Eastern Rite
Armenian Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Catholic Church
Chaldean Catholic Church
Coptic Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Georgian Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Catholic Church
Maronite Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church (usually called the “Byzantine Catholic Church” in the United States)
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
then it probably could be done with the proper permissions and approvals.
As far as chalices not being of gold, the inside must be gold, but the outside
covering or surface could be of some other material. I’m uncertain about the
base of the chalice but I wouldn’t be surprised if that could be of a different
material. It seems when I was very young, I saw silver chalices once in a while.
Just some thoughts.
T
Tsuwano
Guest
Of course it is possible to use sweet grass within a liturgy for Native Americans who might feel that it enhances their faith. You yourself stated that it would be fine to use it as incense, and I agree. No one is suggesting that the faith be supplanted by culture, only that culture can enhance faith. And whether one admits it or not, every liturgy is filled with the practices and nuances of local culture. Indeed, you ask the question concerning every Catholic Church taking cultural themes from various countries and whether that would break the unity of the Church. Well, such churches existed in the United States and modern American Catholicism attests to the presence of culture within liturgy. In all the major cities of the United States we had national churches where Germans attended German churches, Italians attended Italian churches and Irish attended Irish Churches. The unity of the Church was never broken. Now, I don’t suggest we return to national churches in American Catholicism, but I do think that if the Irish could celebrate St. Patick’s Day and celebrate their national saint in a special liturgy and the Italians could do the same on St. Joseph’s feast day and set up their St. Joseph altars, then Native Americans can certainly celebrate a liturgy using elements from their own cultural background. Far from breaking the unity of the Catholic Church, I think such celebration of culture within faith is a sign of the Catholicity of the modern Church; a sign that all are welcomed within her fold.
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