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trickster
Guest
Another reason that the idea of “progressive theologians” being replaced is that there is something inherently disrespectful for the decades of study, struggle, debate in the 60’s, 70’s, 80s etc., where the critics sometimes haven’t even lived through.
Are we to loose the works of Fr. Thomas Berry and his expanding (not contradicting) a Catholic articulation - under eco-theology - of creation and our place in it? Liberation theology - despite its weaknesses - has brought down empires, can we use a form of liberation theology in today’s world…JP II thinks so…Pope Benedict considers himself a friend of liberation theology as it is understood in today’s church…even Fr. Gutierrez (one of those progressive theologians) is now at peace with today’s catholic understanding and is teaching in Rome…
I absolutely welcome younger, new thinking theologians - even of the conservative slanting - because we need new thinkers, and this at least is as exciting…but make no mistake…I am part of that progressive generation that the article speaks of and we did not disrespect the “traditonal thinkers” before us, but simply read against their text, questioned their assumptions, critizized the basis of their theological frameworks and provide alternative ways of thinking about things…I expect younger theologians and clergy to be engaged in the on-going and inter-generational nature of our catholic conversation… but I hope that we are not thowing out the baby with the bathwater.
Bruce
trickster
Are we to loose the works of Fr. Thomas Berry and his expanding (not contradicting) a Catholic articulation - under eco-theology - of creation and our place in it? Liberation theology - despite its weaknesses - has brought down empires, can we use a form of liberation theology in today’s world…JP II thinks so…Pope Benedict considers himself a friend of liberation theology as it is understood in today’s church…even Fr. Gutierrez (one of those progressive theologians) is now at peace with today’s catholic understanding and is teaching in Rome…
I absolutely welcome younger, new thinking theologians - even of the conservative slanting - because we need new thinkers, and this at least is as exciting…but make no mistake…I am part of that progressive generation that the article speaks of and we did not disrespect the “traditonal thinkers” before us, but simply read against their text, questioned their assumptions, critizized the basis of their theological frameworks and provide alternative ways of thinking about things…I expect younger theologians and clergy to be engaged in the on-going and inter-generational nature of our catholic conversation… but I hope that we are not thowing out the baby with the bathwater.
Bruce
trickster
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trickster
Guest
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CarloMagnus
Guest
Most excellent news I’ve read in days. 
-Karl
-Karl
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St_Francis
Guest
I remember seeing just a few months after I returned to the Church a collection of Nativity scenes from all around the world–it brought tears to my eyes.
Like these (I don’t know how to post pics here):
Inuit
Japanese
Niger
Peruvian
And lots more here.
When I think of how for 20 centuries missionaries left their families and native lands, often knowing they probably would never return, and evangelized among remote peoples, and how they showed the people how the good in their religions connected to Catholicism, just as St Paul did with the Greeks, mentioning their Unknown God, I find it difficult to believe that “traditional Catholicism” is seen as somehow antithetical to the incomplete (because unrevealed) spiritual ideas of peoples all around the world.
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Balian
Guest
We all know what Mark Twain had to say about statistics and I have to admit I don’t find myself in agreement with those you provided. In my parish, only a small sample of American Catholics I admit, we have people standing at every Mass because the church is too small for the crowds. We are in fact soon going to be adding an addition.
Many people whose parents were Catholic never embrace the Church as adults and I feel that likely accounts for many of those millions of ex-Catholics, not people who left because they were disenchanted. The Church is and should remain a constant, and faithful to what Christ established. For me, the article shared by the original poster was a breath of fresh air after all the media coverage on dissidents who would have the Church become more secular to please their own personal views.
I’m not trying to take you to task here, just making the point that I disagree with the statistics. Peace.
I
In_Spiration
Guest
I think this paper, though not specifically concerned with theology, may nonetheless shed a tragic amount of light on what often appears to motivate and influence Leftist theology, especially in the more “prestigious” Catholic universities.
[Side note: I would wager that the dominance of the human species over all the rest rose rather exponentially due in part to our innate tendency to introduce new behaviors and habitats into Nature that demand abstract thought, as this would effectively “out-pace” the instinct-rooted hunting/defense of any nearby predators/prey. Further, our affinity for artificial development and technology apparently has a side-effect that may function toward a major human advantage (strictly on the food chain, and only to a point) by diminishing the presence of potentially life-threatening species, frequently rendering them extinct as they may fail to cope to conditions for which they don’t have the time needed to adapt appropriate instincts. The parallels between that and Liberalism in general are perhaps evidence of modern intra-species competition – if you’ll permit me to frame these issues in a rather reductionistic manner. Those who are characteristically obsessed with novelty *as such, even out of a relatively innocent drive for productive success, arguably, and possibly unconsciously, undermine the very foundations of Catholicism toward their personal advantage while they exaggerate the alleged need to mentally entertain all varieties of eccentricity while aiming at some rare discovery. Truth takes a back seat to originality, the same way it does in modern art.]
Another point: The longer a Church has been around, the richer its Tradition is, and the more established its teachings become, what you could come to expect is that ambitious intellectuals among it will be inclined to rebel against such an intimidating history while it looms above their largely over-matched individual intellects. A proud, up-and-coming theologian may wish, with varying kinds of intentions, to “make a difference” or have an opportunity to place his own personal mark on the Church, to sign his autograph on the Truth, yet he finds himself incapable of adding anything original upon confrontation with the brilliance of the Church Fathers, Scholastic genius, or anything else that’s been ingrained into Her teachings after withstanding the rigorous tests of time. Yes, a general aversion to old-school perspectives and methods of scholarship might very predictably lead to swarms of scholars who are under the self-aggrandizing impression that their extra-special uniqueness provides them with the heroic spark of reform that their predisposed neophilia has convinced them our Dogma needs. So, sadly, I’m not very surprised that a lot of them scorn a pious, humble approach to the vast sea of theology from the past. It takes such a long time full of pain-staking discipline in order to master the thought of our predecessors, none of which presents a solid chance to drastically distinguish oneself from a crowd of peers past and present with relentless bursts of “outside-the-box” creativity.
Finally, yes, I do realize there are many competent theologians alive today and that at the moment I’m pretty cynically interpreting the contemporary work through a focus limited to the negative. I confess a degree of hyperbole, and I am excited about the future, with the clergy’s restored willingness to stand firm and outspoken on hard truths. I’m simply frustrated by those who restlessly insist on “progressing with the times” when it’s so clear that “the times,” in what remains of the West, are regressing on most important fronts besides the one that deals with fancy gadgets and shiny distractions. We shouldn’t allow the modern Leftist theories that have been ruining our civilization have anything to do with Catholicism.
Novelty-seeking is a heritable personality trait that tends to correlate with one’s political preferences, among other things. Theology isn’t necessarily exempt either. As a competitive strategy (academia included) it could be dangerously beneficial when combined with a higher than normal IQ, as intelligence is closely associated with one’s ability to adapt successfully to new and unknown things, ideas, or environments. Thus, if ever in the midst of competition, someone with, say, excessive creativity but mediocre memory or just standard command of logic would maybe be at the greatest advantage if he actively altered the mutual settings, for instance, if he zealously pushed for a novel playing-field, surroundings in which those who excel with routine and familiarity could likely become less favored.
[Side note: I would wager that the dominance of the human species over all the rest rose rather exponentially due in part to our innate tendency to introduce new behaviors and habitats into Nature that demand abstract thought, as this would effectively “out-pace” the instinct-rooted hunting/defense of any nearby predators/prey. Further, our affinity for artificial development and technology apparently has a side-effect that may function toward a major human advantage (strictly on the food chain, and only to a point) by diminishing the presence of potentially life-threatening species, frequently rendering them extinct as they may fail to cope to conditions for which they don’t have the time needed to adapt appropriate instincts. The parallels between that and Liberalism in general are perhaps evidence of modern intra-species competition – if you’ll permit me to frame these issues in a rather reductionistic manner. Those who are characteristically obsessed with novelty *as such, even out of a relatively innocent drive for productive success, arguably, and possibly unconsciously, undermine the very foundations of Catholicism toward their personal advantage while they exaggerate the alleged need to mentally entertain all varieties of eccentricity while aiming at some rare discovery. Truth takes a back seat to originality, the same way it does in modern art.]
Another point: The longer a Church has been around, the richer its Tradition is, and the more established its teachings become, what you could come to expect is that ambitious intellectuals among it will be inclined to rebel against such an intimidating history while it looms above their largely over-matched individual intellects. A proud, up-and-coming theologian may wish, with varying kinds of intentions, to “make a difference” or have an opportunity to place his own personal mark on the Church, to sign his autograph on the Truth, yet he finds himself incapable of adding anything original upon confrontation with the brilliance of the Church Fathers, Scholastic genius, or anything else that’s been ingrained into Her teachings after withstanding the rigorous tests of time. Yes, a general aversion to old-school perspectives and methods of scholarship might very predictably lead to swarms of scholars who are under the self-aggrandizing impression that their extra-special uniqueness provides them with the heroic spark of reform that their predisposed neophilia has convinced them our Dogma needs. So, sadly, I’m not very surprised that a lot of them scorn a pious, humble approach to the vast sea of theology from the past. It takes such a long time full of pain-staking discipline in order to master the thought of our predecessors, none of which presents a solid chance to drastically distinguish oneself from a crowd of peers past and present with relentless bursts of “outside-the-box” creativity.
Finally, yes, I do realize there are many competent theologians alive today and that at the moment I’m pretty cynically interpreting the contemporary work through a focus limited to the negative. I confess a degree of hyperbole, and I am excited about the future, with the clergy’s restored willingness to stand firm and outspoken on hard truths. I’m simply frustrated by those who restlessly insist on “progressing with the times” when it’s so clear that “the times,” in what remains of the West, are regressing on most important fronts besides the one that deals with fancy gadgets and shiny distractions. We shouldn’t allow the modern Leftist theories that have been ruining our civilization have anything to do with Catholicism.
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Brendan
Guest
How about the Church itself, in union with the Pope. We should want the Church that the Pope wants.
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Brendan
Guest
Roy,
My experience is that is is the progressive theologies that are the ones that are losing the most membership. In my area, our local ‘progressive’ parish closed off it’s youth ministry. There were not enough youth to serve. Their parents had rejected the gift of many children.
While in our neighboring ‘traditional’ parish, it is busting at the seems with children and youth. We regularly have 70+ altar BOYS serve at any given Sunday Mass, we have vocations to the priesthood.
And the kicker is, the few kids from the progressive parish had started coming to our Youth Group meetings instead of their own, because our parish had the youth
So that is the future of the ‘progressive’ Church.
Their theologians never inspired numbers of men into the priesthood., As far as their parents, well, if you preach contraception, you will most likely not develop the family of someone who would accept the gift of children more willingly.
And as far as Divine guidance, when tehy attempt to add to what the Spirit said in Vatican II, to claim that it said things that it never did, well that’s not a good way to get on the blessings of the Holy Spirit upon their movement
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Teelynn
Guest
They haven’t? What about Ireland? Let’s see now, let me count the countries. I think most of Europe may have been affected, eh?
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Roy5
Guest
In this area of the Northeast, where ethnic Catholicism has been strong - Italian, Polish, Irish, French-Canadian, German parishes - have been strong, almost all churches have suffered losses. The gainers seem to be new independent evangelical churches, where the music is live and loud, young people flock, and dynamic preachers stir their emotions. Probably half or more of their ‘converts’ are ex-Catholics. I don’t fully understand the phenomenon and find it perplexing. I suspect that modern media have something to do with. They are looking for excitement and they seem to get little of its from traditional Catholic or Protestant churches.
Code:
Some of the liberal Protestant churches have picked up Catholics also, often because they are more open on such issues as divorce, gay lifestyles, and independent thinking generally (e. g., doctrinal questions). The largest Protestant parish has estimated that as many as 75% of its communicants are ex-Catholics. Its roster certainly is packed with ethnic names, not mostly old Yankee names that have been traditionally identified with Protestantism in this area.
Interesting trends. I'm not sure what it all means. Certainly considerable flux. Then, of course, you have what seems to be a growing number who are not involved in organized religion at all. Some are atheists and agnostics. Others just find the church irrelevant.
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LisaA
Guest
I think it actually speaks to the notion that the loosey goosey liberal bent was detrimental to the Church. Those who have left may have found the touchy feely approach missing in what they want from their faith. People want tradition, ritual, and a feeling of timelessness in their lives and in their churches. It’s built into our DNA.
I read a fascinating book called “Exodus” that explained why the mainstream churches have lost members in droves while more traditional (Bible based) evangelical churches, and Catholic church have increased in membership of late. The basic premise was that “church” forgot its true mission, that of salvation and of following Christ, instead to try to compete with other Sunday morning activities…social activities, trendy music, casual worship services. Unfortunately as any marketing person knows, if you have something that no one else can offer, your organization has a hold on that “market.” The churches that tried to compete with golf, football, and movies found that they failed miserably by focusing on entertainment instead of the Word of God.
I like good music as much as the next person, but I’m at Mass not to be entertained but to encounter Jesus. There isn’t a single movie, concert or sports event that can compete with Him. I can tell you our Parish is growing and our Diocese is seeing ever expanding numbers of converts and reverts. We chose to be Catholic and we’ll settle for nothing else.
Lisa
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The OP article is factually flawed.
However, the seminary today is the regional seminary for all of New England, as the dioceses throughout the six states now send their candidates to the priesthood, to St. John’s.
If all 70 men at St. John’s make it through to ordination, they would fill a tiny fraction of the dioceses in New England.
Jim
St John’s Seminary in Boston, originally served the Archdioceses of Boston, but was just one of several seminaries.
However, the seminary today is the regional seminary for all of New England, as the dioceses throughout the six states now send their candidates to the priesthood, to St. John’s.
If all 70 men at St. John’s make it through to ordination, they would fill a tiny fraction of the dioceses in New England.
Jim
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the_phoenix
Guest
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trickster
Guest
Francis, thanks for those non-European images and your right…also European images are beautiful too because they are the creation of God…but for many years, the European images (no fault of their own) were imposed on non-european parishes…and hence the notion of the “white” God…this is real too.
I don’t think that “traditional Catholicism” is an antithesis to the body of wisdom knowledge exhibited in the Hebrew Bible, indigenous spirituality and its statements in various world religions both revealed and yet to be revealed. The danger in my mind is people who embrace a “notion” of “traditional” catholicism at the expense of the Catholic Church and its teachings and what she has embraced since the 1960s…grant it many mistakes were made (so were many mistakes made in the years after the release of the Holy Spirit in the first pentacost) BUT the church learned from both those pentacosts, those renewals of the church. Traditional Catholicism is often portrayed as rejecting anything that the church embraces (including its liberal social teaching and theology that resist oppressive regimes in the world) and that is why I talk about Fr. Berry and his momentus work on eco-theology, the views of feminism in our theological framework (reimpowering women) …this is fantastic stuff, it is stuff inspired by the Holy Spirit and it is certainly characteristic and “orthodox” within the context of the Post Vatican II Church.
“just saying…”?
Bruce
Trickster
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trickster
Guest
No Brendon, we shouldn’t! That is not disrespectful of the Pope; the pope is a bishop, like his many brothers who are bishops around the world, nothing more nothing less…however, he is also the one whom the Holy Spirit leans on when the Chruch has to move in a direction. That is the infallibility of this position.
We are allowed to disagree with the Pope, in fact the late JP II always invited us to this 'disagreement" by his style of “propositions”…so no, we don’t have to share the vision of the Pope with respect to our global faith community, BUT, we need to honour and obey his teachings when it is done under the proper conditions of infallibility.
I sense that is your understanding too, but I just wanted to emphasis mypoints above too…
nice to hear from you again Brendon
Bruce
Trickster
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Thank you for that information. Throughout much of the west seminaries have been closed and candidates redirected to other seminaries, so we need to be cautious with statistics such as this.
I am not surprised by this factual error. In this thread I have pointed out that the title is flawed, however when the article first appeared in Traditional Catholicism I pointed out two serious flaws in its content, namely that it had misquoted Pope Benedict and Cardinal George. If we add your observation, then there is sufficient doubt about the article that it can used as a credible source for any serious discussion.
However, if we treat it as an newspaper article about the Catholic Church, intended for non-Catholics who don’t know or care about “Traditional Catholicism”, then it may be a reasonable description of the rise of orthodoxy in the Church.
And, let’s hope and pray that those 70 men do make it through to ordination, and that many more follow them!
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septimine
Guest
I agree. The more we’re just like the world, the less we can attract people. When Christianity becomes just another lifestyle choice, much like being into hip-hop or knitting, it’s not going to attract people. Besides which, I’m much more concerned with being on God’s side. God doesn’t need marketing.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The Church pews were full before the late 60’s and 70’s because many people attended Mass out of obligation, little more.
We had people disengaged with the Mass and faith, but attended because it was how they were raised.
I know, most of my parents, aunts and uncles had little clue about the faith, but attended, because even as adults, they feared having their parents learn they weren’t attending Mass, than what they should be attending for in the first place.
When Jesus Christ came into my life and I was given the gift of faith, to them I was a fanatic, especially because I attend Mass as often as I can during the week.
Keep in mind that we don’t draw people to the faith, God does. Nothing we have was of our own accord, but was given to us through faith in Jesus Christ. Whatever they see in us, is God speaking to them through us.
So it is with men going into the priesthood. They are called by God, not by the ascetic aspects of the Mass and Church. If the are, they’ll make lousy priest, if they last at all.
Today few are called, but I think the quality of priest we’ll have in the future, will be great.
Jim
We had people disengaged with the Mass and faith, but attended because it was how they were raised.
I know, most of my parents, aunts and uncles had little clue about the faith, but attended, because even as adults, they feared having their parents learn they weren’t attending Mass, than what they should be attending for in the first place.
When Jesus Christ came into my life and I was given the gift of faith, to them I was a fanatic, especially because I attend Mass as often as I can during the week.
Keep in mind that we don’t draw people to the faith, God does. Nothing we have was of our own accord, but was given to us through faith in Jesus Christ. Whatever they see in us, is God speaking to them through us.
So it is with men going into the priesthood. They are called by God, not by the ascetic aspects of the Mass and Church. If the are, they’ll make lousy priest, if they last at all.
Today few are called, but I think the quality of priest we’ll have in the future, will be great.
Jim
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Brendan
Guest
I agree thare are some areas where legitimate debate is permitted, but there are others that enjoy the charism of infallibility ( such as on the ordination of women, the truth of the impossibility of gay marriage, the need for the civil authorities to conform with natural law)
I presume that everyone should look to the Church as the authority on these matters, and any others that are part of the deposit of Faith.
- Status