"traditional" Catholicism

[Semper_Fi_1]

Is the liturgy the only aspect of the church that involves traditionalism for most people?

In other words, do most traditionalists accept the married permanent diaconate? The revised Breviary (LOTH)? Ecumanism? The one hour communion fast?

I am just curious to see how deep this mindset actually goes.

Michael

I am not a traditionalist, but a traditional Catholic. I mostly attend a reverent NO Mass (luckily its what I grew up with as our priest is an old export from Germany) When I receive in the Latin Rite either from NO or TLM Mass, I fast for 3 hours. When I’m celebrating the DL with my eastern brethren I fast from midnight.

Proper Ecumenism is fine by me. By proper I mean ecumenism which strives to bring all Christians back into the Catholic Faith. As a traditional Catholic, I support the right of all priests to marry before they are ordained, regardless of their rite.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

I’ve been attending the Divine Liturgy at a local Eastern Orthodox parish for years now. I’m not into guitars, hand clapping:clapping: ,:dancing: holding hands, no incense, no Gregorian Chant, or females distributing holy communion. This seems to be the “DOMINANT” form of worship at Roman Catholic Churches here in the US, and is unlikely to change in my lifetime. If the Tridentine Mass was in every Roman Catholic parish, not just a few. I might return. But until then, the Orthodox Church has adopted me!! . In Orthodoxy, you have the Byzantine or Plain Chant, at every Orthodox Church in the world. Their are no eucharistic ministers, plenty of incense. The non choking kind. For our prayers rise with incense before God, and your not a number among hundreds of parisheners to the priest.:hug1: I’m suprised many traditionalists, don’t start attending the Divine Liturgy, vs the modern Roman Catholic Protestant service. But I will still converse with conservative Roman Catholics. I grieve for the fact that they are a minority now:crying: .

I attend a TLM and am sympathetic to most of what you have stated. Good points concerning the Roman Catholic Protestant Service (glad to see you have categorized this service correctly).

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I attend a TLM and am sympathetic to most of what you have stated. Good points concerning the Roman Catholic Protestant Service (glad to see you have categorized this service correctly).

No such thing… sorry!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I attend a TLM and am sympathetic to most of what you have stated. Good points concerning the Roman Catholic Protestant Service (glad to see you have categorized this service correctly).

That’s oxymoronic. The Church cannot “protest” against Herself.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

That’s oxymoronic. The Church cannot “protest” against Herself.

No such thing… sorry!

I apologize, I should have said The Roman Protestant Service. LOL

 

[RobedWithLight]

I attend a TLM and am sympathetic to most of what you have stated. Good points concerning the Roman Catholic Protestant Service (glad to see you have categorized this service correctly).

There is no such thing as a “Roman Catholic Protestant Service”. And Protestants themselves would seriously object to your casual use of the term “Protestant”.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Cyberwolf: I sent you a PM. Being new to the forums, you may not be aware of this. So I’m letting you know.

 

[bkovacs]

Look at my post “Great Video” and you may get the jist of what I am saying. And why I attend the Orthodox Church.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

There is no such thing as a “Roman Catholic Protestant Service”. And Protestants themselves would seriously object to your casual use of the term “Protestant”.

It is quite obvious you did not understand what was meant by this statement. It was not meant to offend but to reinforce the fact that the NO is very similar, if not the same, to many Protestant Services. Have you attended various denominational services? If you have you must conclude the similarities to the NOM.

 

[AJV]

It is quite obvious you did not understand what was meant by this statement. It was not meant to offend but to reinforce the fact that the NO is very similar, if not the same, to many Protestant Services. Have you attended various denominational services? If you have you must conclude the similarities to the NOM.

And why is that?

 

[RobedWithLight]

It is quite obvious you did not understand what was meant by this statement. It was not meant to offend but to reinforce the fact that the NO is very similar, if not the same, to many Protestant Services. Have you attended various denominational services? If you have you must conclude the similarities to the NOM.

Well it was not meant to offend, but certainly it was meant to reinforce the usual traditionalist allegation that the Novus Ordo is Protestantized. If you were referring to the fact that there is more hymn singing, vernacular liturgy, a greater emphasis on the Scriptures, etc., the comparison stops there.

Historically speaking, the very early church also had some of the same features: hymn singing, vernacular liturgy, more emphasis on the Scriptures. Perhaps the early Church was “Protestantized” as well ?

 

[bkovacs]

You seem to forget that us Orthodox also use the vernacular. But we do it with an Elizabethian style English. Which mind you gives it a beautiful touch. Listen to Classical music lately. Of course we don’t sing foot stoppen folk songs, with electrical guitar gigs at the Divine Liturgy. Which I have witnessed at certain Roman Catholic Churches. We use incense allot as well as real candles. I remember attending an Easter 5:00 mass with my folks who are Roman Catholic, and almost walked out when they handed everyone a battery operated candle, because they were worried about a mass fire breaking out, or were simply to cheap to my real candle sticks. Yeh they have allot in common with us Orthodox.

 

[RobedWithLight]

You seem to forget that us Orthodox also use the vernacular. But we do it with an Elizabethian style English. Which mind you gives it a beautiful touch. Listen to Classical music lately. Of course we don’t sing foot stoppen folk songs, with electrical guitar gigs at the Divine Liturgy. Which I have witnessed at certain Roman Catholic Churches. We use incense allot as well as real candles. I remember attending an Easter 5:00 mass with my folks who are Roman Catholic, and almost walked out when they handed everyone a battery operated candle, because they were worried about a mass fire breaking out, or were simply to cheap to my real candle sticks. Yeh they have allot in common with us Orthodox.

The use of the vernacular in Mass is quite contentious among these “traditionalists”, which in my opinion is merely a tempest in a teapot.

 

[jaeh68]

It is quite obvious you did not understand what was meant by this statement. It was not meant to offend but to reinforce the fact that the NO is very similar, if not the same, to many Protestant Services. Have you attended various denominational services? If you have you must conclude the similarities to the NOM.

I don’t think the church has so much been ‘Protestentized’ as modernised - many churches have. I mean, there were Protestent churches in the 1800’s, but I’m sure they didn’t have guitar groups. A Protestent in their 70’s or 80’s may feel the same way about the changes in their modern services as some feel about the changes in the modern Catholic ones.

I actually like the modern music in Mass… I like the older music too, but I find I like it in an ‘academic’ way… it doens’t inspire me so much as the lyrics of some of the more modern (1540’s or so to present) hymns and songs do. But that’s just a personal preference. I also like older churches… there is something about dim lights and candles and highly decorated places that I find inspiring and it moves me to feel closer to God. However the church I attend is modern, well-lit and sparse.

I know that some people find the openness and light just as inspiring, although I can’t relate to that myself… and that is why, even if I were given the chance, I wouldn’t want to change my church to the traditional style. So long as it is approved by the Catholic Church as an authority, I would not want to do away with one little thing that inspires another person to a closer relationship with God in the true church. If the cost of that, is that I have to work a little harder to feel inspired and close to God in a particular environment, so be it. My personal tastes don’t even figure in it.

All a church needs in order for me to meet God there, is that it be a Catholic Church with a valid priest and a valid Catholic Mass - in any style, language, building, music, colour, age, whatever. So long as we have that, we will never be ‘Protestentized’.

 

[Chancellare]

Is it too naive to dream of having both NO and TLM in the same church and therefore make everybody happy ever after? Like a mother who wants to serve dinner to both veggie and burger-chomping siblings?

 

[RobedWithLight]

Any discussion about “traditional” Catholicism always boils down to Liturgy it seems. Why can’t we have both?

 

[jaeh68]

Is it too naive to dream of having both NO and TLM in the same church and therefore make everybody happy ever after? Like a mother who wants to serve dinner to both veggie and burger-chomping siblings?

I agree - there is room for this diversity!

 

[BobP123]

Is it too naive to dream of having both NO and TLM in the same church and therefore make everybody happy ever after? Like a mother who wants to serve dinner to both veggie and burger-chomping siblings?

Doesn’t seem to be working very well now. TLM seems to be taking a second-class backseat to normal parish activities in most places where they have the “indult.”

Parishes like St. Mary in Rockford, for example, where they have only the TLM, provide a much more comfortable level of Catholicism to me.

 

[Chancellare]

Doesn’t seem to be working very well now. TLM seems to be taking a second-class backseat to normal parish activities in most places where they have the “indult.”

Parishes like St. Mary in Rockford, for example, where they have only the TLM, provide a much more comfortable level of Catholicism to me.

My family used to live in Groningen, Holland for 3 years. In their St Josefkerk parish we have 2 options when we first arrived: Dutch vernacular and TLM. Then we organized an English NO which catered to all expats. So now, in the same church people have 3 Mass options and everybody happy.

 

[AquinaSavio]

I agree - there is room for this diversity!

I don’t see why there has to be so much diversity within the Church. The Church is One. Aside from the different cultures, every Mass should be the same.

However, since the NO has already been established, I’m sure Pope Benedict won’t do away with it. I sincerely hope that the TLM is not looked down upon by so many priests in the future. I think that is all that most Traditional Catholics want.