"traditional" Catholicism

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I don’t see why there has to be so much diversity within the Church. The Church is One. Aside from the different cultures, every Mass should be the same.

However, since the NO has already been established, I’m sure Pope Benedict won’t do away with it. I sincerely hope that the TLM is not looked down upon by so many priests in the future. I think that is all that most Traditional Catholics want. 🙂
I like TLM too so I see where you’re coming from. My only suggestion is for us to help minimize the polarization by avoiding labeling ourselves as either “Traditional” or “Liberal” or what Catholics.
 
I like TLM too so I see where you’re coming from. My only suggestion is for us to help minimize the polarization by avoiding labeling ourselves as either “Traditional” or “Liberal” or what Catholics.
I see what you mean…after all, the Church is based on Scripture AND Tradition. Liberalism and Modernism have been condemned. :yup:
 
Hello all 👋

This is my first time venturing into the Traditional Catholicism forum…I mostly hang out in the News section.

I’ve read through this thread to hopefully understand definitions, but I am still unclear. At my parish…

Liturgy - Mass of Paul VI

Music - usually organ is the only accompaniment, although I believe some woodwinds have been employed at times.

Language - mixed: Eucharistic prayer is in latin, with the exception of the Pater noster, which we currently chant in english. The rest of the Mass is in english. During our evening faith formation, we are all learning other latin prayers - Ave Maria, Pater noster, etc. Father Lappe takes to heart the call of our Pope to pray common prayers in latin.

Altar service - Boys only. This was instituted a few years ago, and they all where cassocks. We typcially have 4-6 at each Mass.

Vestments - Father’s vestments are different than most of the other parishes I attended in California and Colorado, but I have no idea how “traditional” they are. They look “traditional” to me, but I have no experience in that field. 😛

Extraordinary Ministers - Yes, typically there is one for the Body and four with the chalices of Blood.

Confession - expected of all. Fr. Lappe even made a point on Sunday after the last holy day of obligation to remind people that they should not present themselves to receive if they did not attend Mass on the Holy Day and did not confess afterward.

I guess my point is we are not as loose as to be called a “Roman Protestant Service” as the one rude poster used the term, but I have no idea if we would be considered “traditional.” I know there are things that some of you won’t like - the liturgy itself, extraordinary ministers, for example, but I am pleased to be where I am, with a priest who is challenging the community to live our faith following the teaching of the Church.

BTW…I am a convert (1990) and our parish priest is only 35, so he most probably grew up in a non-latin praying “Novus Ordo” parish.
 
Is it too naive to dream of having both NO and TLM in the same church and therefore make everybody happy ever after? Like a mother who wants to serve dinner to both veggie and burger-chomping siblings?
We have this at my parish. We have an English, Novus Ordo in Latin and a TLM. Most of us get along quite swimmingly. There are only a handful of people who want to get rid of the rest of us and have it be a TLM parish only. I haven’t run into anyone that wants to do away with the TLM yet. That’s probably because it’s a very orthodox parish all around. We had a nice mix at our St. Patrick’s day dinner last Sunday. It can be done but you just have to ignore the extremists(on both sides) and be Catholic family…
 
My family used to live in Groningen, Holland for 3 years. In their St Josefkerk parish we have 2 options when we first arrived: Dutch vernacular and TLM. Then we organized an English NO which catered to all expats. So now, in the same church people have 3 Mass options and everybody happy.
One will always find exceptions of course. Here in Chicago we have St. John Cantius, where it has a mix of Tridentine and English and Latin Novus Ordo. I think, however, the church was going to be closed a while back but I think it was the traditionalists who resurrected the parish, so that may explain why trads are not second-class citizens there.

But I really doubt the TLM would work in existing Novus Ordo parishes on a long-term basis. Sorry.
 
Is it too naive to dream of having both NO and TLM in the same church and therefore make everybody happy ever after? Like a mother who wants to serve dinner to both veggie and burger-chomping siblings?
I believe it can be possible, but there are too many people on both sides who want it one way. We have a Latin NO mass twice a month for our high mass. Although it’s not the TLM, it’s better than nothing. At many, if not most, parishes, a Latin NO wouldn’t even be permitted. What saddens me is the fact that many parishes won’t even give the TLM or a Latin NO a chance. Although I think that is slowly changing, at least in my area. I think the Latin NO is a good transition mass for those who never attended a TLM, especially for people of my generation and younger.

I also lived in Portland, ME for a year and the cathedral there had a TLM. I don’t know if that is still going on there, but it was so refreshing for a young, 20-something Catholic who never experienced a TLM. (I had experience with the Latin NO before then, so that was very helpful. )
 
We have this at my parish. We have an English, Novus Ordo in Latin and a TLM. Most of us get along quite swimmingly. There are only a handful of people who want to get rid of the rest of us and have it be a TLM parish only. I haven’t run into anyone that wants to do away with the TLM yet. That’s probably because it’s a very orthodox parish all around. We had a nice mix at our St. Patrick’s day dinner last Sunday. It can be done but you just have to ignore the extremists(on both sides) and be Catholic family…
In our parish, I think if we are to have more than one liturgy, it would most likely be the addition of a Tridentine Mass at one of our Mass times. However, I don’t see any indication of that happening.

Our current liturgy is already becoming latinized, so I don’t see where it would make sense to have a separate English and Latin Mass.
 
You seem to forget that us Orthodox also use the vernacular. But we do it with an Elizabethian style English. Which mind you gives it a beautiful touch. Listen to Classical music lately. Of course we don’t sing foot stoppen folk songs, with electrical guitar gigs at the Divine Liturgy. Which I have witnessed at certain Roman Catholic Churches. We use incense allot as well as real candles. I remember attending an Easter 5:00 mass with my folks who are Roman Catholic, and almost walked out when they handed everyone a battery operated candle, because they were worried about a mass fire breaking out, or were simply to cheap to my real candle sticks. Yeh they have allot in common with us Orthodox. :rolleyes:
When I read your posts I get a “nanny nanny boo boo/my dad can beat your dad up” vibe from it.
I can understand not participating in a certain rite becuase of the Liturguical abuses, but tone down the disdain and ridicule that oozes from your posts.
Yes there are some dissappointing parishes and priest out there but It’s our job as Catholics to call them on their irreverence and and fight for orthodoxy, not run away to another church because they use different english or use lots of inscence.
 
You seem to forget that us Orthodox also use the vernacular. But we do it with an Elizabethian style English. Which mind you gives it a beautiful touch. Listen to Classical music lately. Of course we don’t sing foot stoppen folk songs, with electrical guitar gigs at the Divine Liturgy. Which I have witnessed at certain Roman Catholic Churches. We use incense allot as well as real candles. I remember attending an Easter 5:00 mass with my folks who are Roman Catholic, and almost walked out when they handed everyone a battery operated candle, because they were worried about a mass fire breaking out, or were simply to cheap to my real candle sticks. Yeh they have allot in common with us Orthodox. :rolleyes:
We have the orthodox faith handed down from the apostles in common with them. Of course, they don’t have the Successor to Saint Peter, something of a necessity. Despite the abuse of the liturgy (something you seem to have confused with the liturgy itself), the Church founded by Christ on the Rock of Peter is still the one Church He founded. All others are built on foundations of sand. The faith cannot have meant that much to you if you would depart it based on a style of speech or the quality of wax in the candles.
 
But I really doubt the TLM would work in existing Novus Ordo parishes on a long-term basis. Sorry.
Why not? We’ve had the TLM for 15ish years. I think if you’ve got people dedicated to making it work, it will. If you have people trying to get rid of each other, someone will go. Thankfully, a few bad apples haven’t spoiled the bunch.
 
I believe it can be possible, but there are too many people on both sides who want it one way. We have a Latin NO mass twice a month for our high mass. Although it’s not the TLM, it’s better than nothing. At many, if not most, parishes, a Latin NO wouldn’t even be permitted. What saddens me is the fact that many parishes won’t even give the TLM or a Latin NO a chance. Although I think that is slowly changing, at least in my area. I think the Latin NO is a good transition mass for those who never attended a TLM, especially for people of my generation and younger.

I also lived in Portland, ME for a year and the cathedral there had a TLM. I don’t know if that is still going on there, but it was so refreshing for a young, 20-something Catholic who never experienced a TLM. (I had experience with the Latin NO before then, so that was very helpful. )
After having lived in many places, I learned to appreciate the universality of being Catholic. So everytime I stay in a strange city, I just sneak into the parish church (if I find it) and just say a “thank you” for the universal character of the Catholic Church. Even if I don’t understand much French, German or Polish or Chinese, I just follow the rhythm of the Liturgy and make sure I pre-read all the readings for the day and be able to receive communion - and that makes my day.

So to me, the dilemma between NO and TLM becomes trivial.

What I’m trying to say is: as the world becomes flatter (read Friedman’s The World is Flat) and smaller, our faith should grow richer, wider and more universal and inclusive…
 
I’m suprised many traditionalists, don’t start attending the Divine Liturgy, vs the modern Roman Catholic Protestant service. But I will still converse with conservative Roman Catholics. I grieve for the fact that they are a minority now:crying: .
Liturgy is no small matter… but are you really suprised that the TLM traditionalist have not “swam the Bosporus” to Eastern Orthodoxy? Do you think liturgical sensibilities alone guide the traditionlist movement?
 
It was based on way more than you think or I’m willing to discuss on this forum!. Necessity?. What about the successors of St Mark and St Andrew. Vice versa. The Patriarchate of Antioch was also founded by Saints Peter and Paul. So I guess the successor to Sts Paul and Peter is the Patriarch of Antioch. I guess the Patriarch of Antioch is also the Rock!. Antioch, where God’s followers were first called Christians and the Episcopacy of St. Peter.👍
We have the orthodox faith handed down from the apostles in common with them. Of course, they don’t have the Successor to Saint Peter, something of a necessity. Despite the abuse of the liturgy (something you seem to have confused with the liturgy itself), the Church founded by Christ on the Rock of Peter is still the one Church He founded. All others are built on foundations of sand. The faith cannot have meant that much to you if you would depart it based on a style of speech or the quality of wax in the candles.
 
It was based on way more than you think or I’m willing to discuss on this forum!. Necessity?. What about the successors of St Mark and St Andrew. Vice versa. The Patriarchate of Antioch was also founded by Saints Peter and Paul. So I guess the successor to Sts Paul and Peter is the Patriarch of Antioch. I guess the Patriarch of Antioch is also the Rock!. Antioch, where God’s followers were first called Christians and the Episcopacy of St. Peter.👍
So this is essentially a throw-away post?

Why do you equate patriarchal sees antiquity in and of itself giving a see authority?

BTW, which Patriarch of Alexandria do you see as being the successor of St. Mark? The Coptic Patriarch of some 6M souls? Or your brother Orthodox bishop of Alexandria who heads a community of 300,000 enjoying an all time high of adherants since the inception of the greek see after Chalcedon?

Sure those sees are ancient. You are not thinking you discovered something new here, are you?
 
We have the orthodox faith handed down from the apostles in common with them. Of course, they don’t have the Successor to Saint Peter, something of a necessity. Despite the abuse of the liturgy (something you seem to have confused with the liturgy itself), the Church founded by Christ on the Rock of Peter is still the one Church He founded. All others are built on foundations of sand. The faith cannot have meant that much to you if you would depart it based on a style of speech or the quality of wax in the candles.
We have not the same faith as the Orthodox maybe 90% though, but 90% is not enough to be Catholic you have to believe everything God has revealed through His Church, He cannot decieve nor be decieved.
Do not lead people astray with errenous statements.
 
After having lived in many places, I learned to appreciate the universality of being Catholic. So everytime I stay in a strange city, I just sneak into the parish church (if I find it) and just say a “thank you” for the universal character of the Catholic Church. Even if I don’t understand much French, German or Polish or Chinese, I just follow the rhythm of the Liturgy and make sure I pre-read all the readings for the day and be able to receive communion - and that makes my day.

So to me, the dilemma between NO and TLM becomes trivial.

What I’m trying to say is: as the world becomes flatter (read Friedman’s The World is Flat) and smaller, our faith should grow richer, wider and more universal and inclusive…
This is true. Let me make it clear that I don’t mind attending the NO as long as it is full of respect and without the liturgical abuses that I’ve sometimes run across. But I think it would be nice to have TLM offered, instead of hidden away like it was some sort of dark part of our past. It hasn’t been fair to the people of my generation.

Maybe it’s just me, or it’s just the churches and cathedrals I’ve attended, but the NO masses I’ve attended in other countries have been filled with more reverence than over here. Although, I do really appreciate it when I come across a NO Latin mass in the countries I’ve been in. I haven’t found a Trid mass yet (except in London), but I wasn’t searching for one at the time in the other countries. As you said, you just have to “work” a little harder if it is in the vernacular, which is fine. The only problem I have is during the homilies. My French, German and Italian are elementary at best, so, even though I’ve studied those languages for my music training and know enough to get around town, I do miss a lot during the homily.

I do have to say, though, I stayed in Salzburg while studying at the Mozarteum and I have never lived in such a Catholic city. It was wonderful. I loved seeing the young clergy and religious walking around in the city, interacting with the lay people. On Sundays I’d attend a few masses at different churches, just to get a feeling of how they celebrate the mass there. They were packed. Is this usual, for those who know Austria better? One small church had a 5:00 mass that was with guitar. It was in the chapel underneath the church. People attended it, but not in the same numbers as at the other churches. I went to the Cathedral every Sunday especially because the did a Michael Haydn mass (usually) at the early low mass and a Mozart mass at the high mass. (Music is my life and adds to my prayer life - the more music I get the more prayer.) These masses would be packed. At the Cathedral, during the distribution of the Eucharist, there was always this mad rush to receive.One time I was towards the end of the line. The 6 priests distributing almost ran out and started breaking up all the hosts and I received this teensy host.

God bless!!! 🙂
 
We have not the same faith as the Orthodox maybe 90% though, but 90% is not enough to be Catholic you have to believe everything God has revealed through His Church, He cannot decieve nor be decieved.
Do not lead people astray with errenous statements.
Excuse me, but that was MY point (we have the fullness of Truth because we have the Petrine ministry). I did not say that we agree on everything, we patently don’t, ie, the filioque, etc.). They are, however, apostolic and particular Churches, per Domine Jesus, written by Cardinal Ratzinger and promulgated by Pope John Paul II. AND I clearly stated that there was, but one Church founded by Jesus Christ. That Church has one Supreme Pontiff.

[Edited by Moderator]
 
Excuse me, but that was MY point (we have the fullness of Truth because we have the Petrine ministry). I did not say that we agree on everything, we patently don’t, ie, the filioque, etc.). They are, however, apostolic and particular Churches, per Domine Jesus, written by Cardinal Ratzinger and promulgated by Pope John Paul II. AND I clearly stated that there was, but one Church founded by Jesus Christ. That Church has one Supreme Pontiff.

[Edited by Moderator]
So perhaps you misunderstood me. Next time, maybe you can ASK what I meant before you accuse me of making misleading statements.
 
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