Traditional Catholics and Fatima

[DustinsDad]

There seems to be a certain connection between Traditional Catholicism and certain views concerning Fatima. Namely the opinion regarding the requested concecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart - that it has not been accomplished.

I thought I’d post a poll to see if there really was a strong connection, or if this is an erroneous impression. After voting, please indicate if you would call yourself a “traditional” catholic.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Caesar]

… has not yet been accomplished.

 

[Indyann]

… has not yet been accomplished.

So you are saying that the Vatican has lied?

 

[Caesar]

So you are saying that the Vatican has lied?

Not lied. I just dont think John Paul II consecrated Russia to Our Lady, even if he thought so. It didnt happen.

 

[Indyann]

Not lied. I just dont think John Paul II consecrated Russia to Our Lady, even if he thought so. It didnt happen.

How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.

 

[Caesar]

How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.

There is good reason to believe that the consecration never happened. The proper criteria was not met.

And do not presume that he will be a Saint. The miracle for his beatification is still being investigated.

 

[DustinsDad]

So you are saying that the Vatican has lied?

Even “the Vatican” says the concecration was a concecration of the world and that Russia was not specifically mentioned. You can look at the various concecrations word for word in the latest Vatican document on Fatima.

The varying opinions are whether this act fulfills the request or still falls short for not being specific enough.

One thing I personally find perplexing is that Pope John Paul II, in the middle of the concecration of the world, said these words, "…Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting…"*.* Why would Our Lady be awaiting any requested concecration if said concecration is being made in the very statement? It’s a strange phrase thrown in there that just doesn’t fit with the preposition that this concecration was (or included) the requested concecration of Russia.

And why not mention Russia by name? What’s up with that?

And then there is dear St. Lucy. The conflicting accounts of what she said when is just, well, too strange.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Like]

So you are saying that the Vatican has lied?

Hi Indyann, looks like you and I voted the same so far.

As for those who do not believe, I fear nothing short of Our Lady appearing to the whole world would be enough for convincing them that it has.

ZE07052519 - 2007-05-25
Permalink: zenit.org/article-19733?l=english
Russia Marks Fatima Anniversary

Archbishop Says Message Still Relevant

MOSCOW, MAY 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The message from Mary’s appearances in Fatima is still relevant after 90 years, because it is linked to the transformation of the human person, said Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz. Read the rest of the letter.
zenit.org/article-19733?l=english

Also for more on Fatima read the right side bar on the above link. And for even more see this search on Zenit
zenit.org/fulltext-0

I know I’m wasting my time on this, if I could just talk Our Lady into appearing…
JP II, Sr.Lucia, B16 & all who have stated to the afirmative Have Not Lied!

 

[Indyann]

As for those who do not believe, I fear nothing short of Our Lady appearing to the whole world would be enough for convincing them that it has.

Read I know I’m wasting my time on this, if I could just talk Our Lady into appearing…
JP II, Sr.Lucia, B16 & all who have stated to the afirmative Have Not Lied!

Thanks for the links.

Just reminds me that even Thomas did not believe until he saw the wounds of Christ.

Some would rather chase conspiracy theories than to admit that the consecration did take place.

To them, it seems as the gates of hell have indeed prevailed. What a shame!

 

[DustinsDad]

…MOSCOW, MAY 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The message from Mary’s appearances in Fatima is still relevant after 90 years, because it is linked to the transformation of the human person, said Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz. Read the rest of the letter.
zenit.org/article-19733?l=english

This article is proof that the concecration took place? Huh?

Interesting quote from the article…
The 61-year-old archbishop further affirmed that Mary’s message was significant for Russia also in an ecumenical sense.

He said: "Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the conversion of Russia to God, she didn’t say that it had to be exclusively Catholic.

"As the Catholic Church, we help our Orthodox brethren and we work together to continue and develop dialogue between us.
Aside from the blatant absurdity - and borderline heresy - of this statement, does anyone have any current “stats” on the state of the Orthodox Church in Russia? Is the country being more “converted to God” since the concecration?

And then we have this…
“Why the focus on Russia? …The apostolate in Russia is in a sense providential and prophetic because we are touching the mystery of Fatima which says that this age of crisis will end and it will be the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
Utterly meaningless statement.

…JP II, Sr.Lucia, B16 & all who have stated to the afirmative Have Not Lied!

Again, no one is accusing anyone of lying. But do you have and could you provide here the exact quotes with sources for these alleged statements?

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Catholic_Dude]

There seems to be a certain connection between Traditional Catholicism and certain views concerning Fatima. Namely the opinion regarding the requested concecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart - that it has not been accomplished.

I thought I’d post a poll to see if there really was a strong connection, or if this is an erroneous impression. After voting, please indicate if you would call yourself a “traditional” catholic.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I dont know much about the Fatima situation, but at this point my theory is that there is some amount of information that was revealed to the Kids/Pope has not been revealed to the faithful (yet?). It isnt even our right to know.

If the Vatican says the Consecration happened then I give first priority to their claim, this however says nothing about any further information (requirements?) that have not been revealed.

** The fact that popes which RadTrads (or traditionalists in general, including myself) look up to (eg Pius XI, Pius XII) did not do the Consecration (properly?) says a lot right there about this thread topic.**

I also found this link with a quick google:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/FatimaConsecration.htm
The USSR collapsing is the closest thing to any “proof” so far and it should be considered great proof for the time being (it cant just be brushed off).

The brief “Traditionalist” claims I have read about “what was supposed to happen” make it sound as if the Russian Orthodox Church would suddenly collapse, all 150 million Russians would convert to Catholicism, infuse Latin Rite Catholicism into the whole Russian Culture (eg wide demand of Latin, the TLM, Baltimore Catechism, etc) and the rest of the world would follow their lead in the near future. There is something about that that sounds too good to be true and leads me to think it wont happen in that way (at least not that magnitude).

 

[Like]

I dont know much about the Fatima situation, but at this point my theory is that there is some amount of information that was revealed to the Kids/Pope has not been revealed to the faithful (yet?). It isnt even our right to know.

If the Vatican says the Consecration happened then I give first priority to their claim, this however says nothing about any further information (requirements?) that have not been revealed.

** The fact that popes which RadTrads (or traditionalists in general, including myself) look up to (eg Pius XI, Pius XII) did not do the Consecration (properly?) says a lot right there about this thread topic.**

I also found this link with a quick google:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/FatimaConsecration.htm
The USSR collapsing is the closest thing to any “proof” so far and it should be considered great proof for the time being (it cant just be brushed off).

The brief “Traditionalist” claims I have read about “what was supposed to happen” make it sound as if the Russian Orthodox Church would suddenly collapse, all 150 million Russians would convert to Catholicism, infuse Latin Rite Catholicism into the whole Russian Culture (eg wide demand of Latin, the TLM, Baltimore Catechism, etc) and the rest of the world would follow their lead in the near future. There is something about that that sounds too good to be true and leads me to think it wont happen in that way (at least not that magnitude).

 

[Like]

This article is proof that the concecration took place? Huh?

Interesting quote from the article…The 61-year-old archbishop further affirmed that Mary’s message was significant for Russia also in an ecumenical sense.

He said: "Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the conversion of Russia to God, she didn’t say that it had to be exclusively Catholic.

"As the Catholic Church, we help our Orthodox brethren and we work together to continue and develop dialogue between us.
Aside from the blatant absurdity - and borderline heresy - of this statement, does anyone have any current “stats” on the state of the Orthodox Church in Russia? Is the country being more “converted to God” since the concecration? Heresy?!?
If you refuse to accept this from Zenit, then nothing will convince you.

And then we have this… “Why the focus on Russia? …The apostolate in Russia is in a sense providential and prophetic because we are touching the mystery of Fatima which says that this age of crisis will end and it will be the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”
Utterly meaningless statement.

Again, no one is accusing anyone of lying. But do you have and could you provide here the exact quotes with sources for these alleged statements?
You need only to read all the post of the last 2 or 3 weeks on Fatima threads. Some, when asked if they were accusing JP II & B XVI of lying answered with double talk. If you don’t see that then nothing I say or do would ever convince you.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Quote (from my earlier post)
As for those who do not believe, I fear nothing short of Our Lady appearing to the whole world would be enough for convincing them that it has. (end quote)
Good night, sweet dreams!

 

[marymonde]

Antonio Socci’s “The Fourth Secret of Fatima” is an interesting read.

 

[latinmasslover]

How presumptious of you to place your opinion above the soon-to-be St. John Paul II.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion.

Don’t count on that. Kissing Korans and doing other things that Popes have already condemned (as has Scripture) doesn’t get you into heaven, no matter your rank.

Besides, keep in mind that the Vatican lied about JPII’s medical condition. The cardinals are humans, and therefore sinners, and can make mistakes, and sin. To say otherwise it to make yourself a papist, which Catholics are not. Other popes consecrated Russia incorrectly, as did JPII. One could say it was presumptuous of him to even attempt to consecrate when it was already done. One more thing, if you believe in the Marian Movement of Priests, which the JPII never condemned, then you can’t accept the lie/misunderstanding that Russia was consecrated.

Russia wasn’t consecrated correctly, and I am a traditional Catholic, although I hate saying “traditional” as it implies that we’re the ones “outside” the Church, when in fact, we’re not.

Of course, we could all follow the example of the Nazis and blindly obey in matters that are not guaranteed by the Holy Ghost. Keep in mind Judas betrayed Christ, St. Peter denied Him three times, the Apostles ran, and only ONE stayed with Jesus to His mortal end. The 10 *temporarily *abandoned Him while one remained. Same thing is happening today.

 

[marymonde]

Russia wasn’t consecrated correctly,

.

That is a fair explanation of the Fatima consecration. Your post was stated very well, with no finger pointing or accusations against the Holy Father.

I do believe the bishops were suppose to have their own public act of Consecration of Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart, in their own diocese, in union with the Holy Father. This is one of the conditions of Our Lady’s request. I don’t think that ever happened.

 

[Sure]

I’d say that the fall of the most atheistic, tyrranical, anti-catholic, murderous government in the history of the world might be a good indication that the consecration happened. A world super-power that systematically murdered millions upon millions just folded up shop without a World War but somehow, that just isn’t enough of a “conversion” for some people?

Also, did Our Lady give a timeframe for conversion? Perhaps step one was the fall of communism. Step two will be the conversion to Christianity. Step Three will be…you get the idea. Maybe this is all supposed to happen over 200 years or so.

 

[Caesar]

I’d say that the fall of the most atheistic, tyrranical, anti-catholic, murderous government in the history of the world might be a good indication that the consecration happened. A world super-power that systematically murdered millions upon millions just folded up shop without a World War but somehow, that just isn’t enough of a “conversion” for some people?

Also, did Our Lady give a timeframe for conversion? Perhaps step one was the fall of communism. Step two will be the conversion to Christianity. Step Three will be…you get the idea. Maybe this is all supposed to happen over 200 years or so.

Russia is mostly atheist though, and the Christians there are nominally Russian Orthodox, not Catholic.

 

[marymonde]

I’d say that the fall of the most atheistic, tyrranical, anti-catholic, murderous government in the history of the world might be a good indication that the consecration happened. A world super-power that systematically murdered millions upon millions just folded up shop without a World War but somehow, that just isn’t enough of a “conversion” for some people?

Also, did Our Lady give a timeframe for conversion? Perhaps step one was the fall of communism. Step two will be the conversion to Christianity. Step Three will be…you get the idea. Maybe this is all supposed to happen over 200 years or so.

Are you serious that you believe communism has fallen in Russia? Have you read what Russia has been up to recently and what Putin (an “ex” KGB agent) has recently announced? Do you know that Russian bombers were flying over the Alaskan coast two weeks ago? Hit any search engine and you’ll get how bad it is. You need to read Anatoly Golitsyn’s “New Lies for Old”. He was and ex-KGB agent who accurately FORtold the phony collapse of the USSR.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1347260/posts

Choose any of these googled sites to see how pathetic the Russian abortion rate is:

google.com/search?hl=en&q=russian+abortion+rate

Or that Russia was the first country to legalize abortion:

“In 1920, by decree, Lenin made the USSR the first country in the world to legalize abortion.” from…
questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=HGHbgw3Z40vfKMt33rGhw9Jsd1Pk58pbK6sjpzPnGTmWzbRTP5LV!-1678442236?docId=5002479659

Recall Our Lady said,
“If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions against the Church.”

Americans can sit back and say, yeah, Russia is consecrated, because we do have relative peace. But I say that this is not the world peace Our Lady promised, especially for those who have NO voice in the womb. Russia has spread and continues to spread her error the death of innocent children. Wars are rampant all over the entire earth. Persecutions continue against the Church, it is illegal to be a Catholic in Russia and the Holy Father, who wanted to visit the country, was not allowed in. The Chinese Catholics are completely underground and are routinely martyred for being so. The list is endless.

 

[stmaria]

:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/FatimaConsecration.htm
The USSR collapsing is the closest thing to any “proof” so far and it should be considered great proof for the time being (it cant just be brushed off).

The brief “Traditionalist” claims I have read about “what was supposed to happen” make it sound as if the Russian Orthodox Church would suddenly collapse, all 150 million Russians would convert to Catholicism, infuse Latin Rite Catholicism into the whole Russian Culture (eg wide demand of Latin, the TLM, Baltimore Catechism, etc) and the rest of the world would follow their lead in the near future. There is something about that that sounds too good to be true and leads me to think it wont happen in that way (at least not that magnitude).

From your link. Pope Pius XII also consecrated Russia but did not do it according to what Our Lady requested.

December 1940 Sr. Lucia writes letter to Pius XII, saying that Our Lord Himself requests the Pope to "consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary,** with a special mention for Russia**, and order that all the Bishops of the world do the same in union with Your Holiness."4

October 31, 1942 Pope Pius XII consecrates the world to the Immaculate Heart.
July 7, 1952 Pope Pius XII consecrates the Russian people to the Immaculate Heart

Those two consecrations happened in 1942 and 1952 and they wre not valid, so why do you think the one’s Pope John Paul were valid? Our lady promised a period of peace. Has there been peace since 1984? Russia was to be converted to the One True Faith, the Catholic faith not just any christian religion.