Traditional Divine Office?

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landon13

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Hi y’all,

So I’m a college student and have been trying to get more into a spiritual routine. I know and have prayed the Christian Prayer from the post-conciliar LOTH, but did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it. I wanted something more, if that makes sense.

So I’m just looking for suggestions on a devotion or something that is similar but also won’t break the bank too much for me. And, one that can be prayed without spending too many hours in monastic seclusion.

Thank yall
 
The only truly “traditional” Divine Office out there is the monastic one. It exists in both pre- and post-conciliar forms. In both variety the psalm schema is the same; even the option to pray Prime still exists, but if not licit options exist to distribute the psalms of Prime elsewhere. The nice thing is that you can pray a “traditional” Office with the modern liturgical year. The best source for this is Psalterium Monasticum from Solesmes as well as the new Monastic Antiphonary. But be warned it’s a heavy load; with many repetitions, 250+ psalms are said in a week.

The pre-Vatican II Roman Breviary (of divinumofficium.com fame) isn’t really traditional. It was a complete (and in itself rather controversial) reform of the Divine Office in 1910 by Pius X. While many “traditional” elements remain (psalms that correspond to certain hours, 150 psalms in a week), many were not (such as breaking up the Laudate psalms at Lauds that traditionally were sung together every day). And even that breviary has undergone periodical revisions between then and 1960 when its final edition came out; Holy Week reforms, rubrical reforms, changes to classes of feasts, etc.

For my own purposes I usually use the 4-week LOTH but chanted in Latin Gregorian chant using Les Heures Grégoriennes and Antiphonale Romanum II and Liturgia Horarum for the Office of Readings or now my own Nocturnale for Gregorian chant of the OOR that I produced. It “bulks up” the LOTH very nicely into something more substantial, but still accessible.

I also occasionally use the schema that the monastery to which I’m attached as oblate uses. It is a post-Conciliar monastic schema of 150 psalms in 1 week, with options to spread them over 2 weeks (which I do when I use it). I like it less for chanting though as I have to switch across 1 or more books each time I use it on other than ferias of O.T., and when chanting that’s a pain and breaks the flow of the Office. Les Heures Grégoriennes has everything you need for any given office between the same two covers, with minimal page flipping.
 
Why not try reciting/reading a page from the Psalms in the morning and eve. After all that is where a great portion of LOTH comes from. And also try reading from Proverbs which is full of gems. You may try mixing your prayers from one venue to another on certain days so that you don’t get burnout or spiritual dryness. It is what you put into your prayers that counts, not how many or what kind you pray. Even God needed veriety. That’s why he made man so He might enjoy a bit of comedy, be sad for the tragedies, smile for the love we share, and cry for the loves that are lost. Of course, I just gave God human attributes which I shouldn’t, but the principle is mix things up just a tad as the very best prayers are the prayers from the heart. Keep the LOTH, esp. on Sun. Peace and prayers.
 
ChurchSoldier said:
divinumofficium.com

Free.
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Please be aware that I’ve encountered a number of errors while using divinumofficium.com, some worse than others but nothing insurmountable. Today in fact (May 25th) is the Feast of St. Gregory VII yet divinumofficium.com is using the propers for May 27th, the Feast of St. Bede the Venerable. Changing the date forward or backward a couple days doesn’t seem to remedy the problem. I’ve also encountered a handful of occasions in which competing feasts were not correctly ranked (e.g. a 3rd Class Feast somehow outranking a 2nd Class Feast). You get what you pay for, right? 😉

If you’d prefer a tangible prayer book that is portable and not at all expensive I’d recommend the Diurnale Romanum which you can purchase through Abbaye Sainte-Madeleine Barroux in Provence. It’s 46 Euros (~$50) through the monastery but can cost upwards to $100 through American retailers.

The Diurnale unlike the Breviary does not contain Matins, and lacks the Roman Martyrology for Prime. Otherwise all components of all the other hours are there in one, pocket-sized prayer book. Be advised that this Diurnale is entirely in Latin, including the rubrics and even the table of moveable feasts.
 
Brandon_Cal said:
Please be aware that I’ve encountered a number of errors while using divinumofficium.com, some worse than others but nothing insurmountable. Today in fact (May 25th) is the Feast of St. Gregory VII yet divinumofficium.com is using the propers for May 27th, the Feast of St. Bede the Venerable. Changing the date forward or backward a couple days doesn’t seem to remedy the problem. I’ve also encountered a handful of occasions in which competing feasts were not correctly ranked (e.g. a 3rd Class Feast somehow outranking a 2nd Class Feast). You get what you pay for, right? 😉
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I have noticed some small thing here and there, but then again I’m not too familiar with the workings of the Roman Breviary, so I have just been doing what it has been telling me to do, using the 1924 Antiphonale.

I didn’t find any errors for today…my 1962 Missal tells me that for the Mass it’s the common of one or several Holy Popes…and for the Breviary, I only sang Lauds this morning, but it was the antiphons and psalms for Feria Quarta ad Laudes, hymn and Benedictus antiphon from Common of a Confessor Pope, and the collect from the Sanctoral cycle for May 25th, St. Gregory VII. All of which, as far as I could tell, matches what is on divinumofficium.
 
If you want something more traditional but in English, there is the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham which is used in the Ordinariate.
 
I would humbly encourage you to give the LOTH more of a try. 🙂

You wrote that you “did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it.” Well, this is an interesting phenomenon amongst certain Catholics on both sides of things: the objective merit of something is weighed by how it makes them feel and what sort of emotions it elicits. If they like it, it’s good. If they don’t, it’s bad. And by the way, so often one’s preferences even become God’s preferences, and what one enjoys becomes so much more “objectively” meritorious than the “fluff” one does not.

I think the Catholic thing to do is to set aside one’s feelings, and to receive what Holy Mother Church gives us, seeking to conform ourselves to her, rather than consistently seeking to fulfill desires and preferences, making them a sort of rule of faith, using them to judge things.

Now, perhaps none of this applies to you. Fair enough. But your language struck me, and I wanted to make my thoughts on this known.
 
LaetenturCaeli said:
I would humbly encourage you to give the LOTH more of a try. 🙂

You wrote that you “did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it.” Well, this is an interesting phenomenon amongst certain Catholics on both sides of things: the objective merit of something is weighed by how it makes them feel and what sort of emotions it elicits. If they like it, it’s good. If they don’t, it’s bad. And by the way, so often one’s preferences even become God’s preferences, and what one enjoys becomes so much more “objectively” meritorious than the “fluff” one does not.

I think the Catholic thing to do is to set aside one’s feelings, and to receive what Holy Mother Church gives us, seeking to conform ourselves to her, rather than consistently seeking to fulfill desires and preferences, making them a sort of rule of faith, using them to judge things.

Now, perhaps none of this applies to you. Fair enough. But your language struck me, and I wanted to make my thoughts on this known.
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A good point. Moreover the LOTH is not “all about me” or my “feelings”. It’s the prayer of the Universal Church. By the Church, for the Church. The very point you made is brought up in an excellent commentary on the Rule of St Benedict that I read every day, in one of the chapters on the Divine Office. The commenter, a Trappist abbot, says that the LOTH is not about our feelings, it’s about solidarity with the Church no matter how one feels, and that means solidarity with people who are happy when we are sad and vice-versa.

I’ve wrestled with the LOTH not being meaty enough and have experimented with (post-Vatican II) Monastic Offices. But through perseverance I’ve come to appreciate the depth that the LOTH can have especially for busy secular people. So I’ve learned to let go of my prejudices. Last year at our annual Oblate Retreat I gave conference on the history of the LOTH, and all the traditional elements that still reside within it in spite of what some people say about it. At this year’s retreat I am continuing on the same theme and will teach oblates how to actually pray it.
 
I have a physical little office of the blessed virgin Mary. It works well.
 
LaetenturCaeli said:
I would humbly encourage you to give the LOTH more of a try. 🙂

You wrote that you “did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it.” Well, this is an interesting phenomenon amongst certain Catholics on both sides of things: the objective merit of something is weighed by how it makes them feel and what sort of emotions it elicits. If they like it, it’s good. If they don’t, it’s bad. And by the way, so often one’s preferences even become God’s preferences, and what one enjoys becomes so much more “objectively” meritorious than the “fluff” one does not.

I think the Catholic thing to do is to set aside one’s feelings, and to receive what Holy Mother Church gives us, seeking to conform ourselves to her, rather than consistently seeking to fulfill desires and preferences, making them a sort of rule of faith, using them to judge things.

Now, perhaps none of this applies to you. Fair enough. But your language struck me, and I wanted to make my thoughts on this known.
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Agreed.

I usually find that it’s not an ideal formula to pick one thing (e.g. the “traditional” Office or Mass) based on the “badness” of the one form rather than on the merits of the other.
 
bobballen_18 said:
I didn’t find any errors for today…my 1962 Missal tells me that for the Mass it’s the common of one or several Holy Popes…and for the Breviary, I only sang Lauds this morning, but it was the antiphons and psalms for Feria Quarta ad Laudes, hymn and Benedictus antiphon from Common of a Confessor Pope, and the collect from the Sanctoral cycle for May 25th, St. Gregory VII. All of which, as far as I could tell, matches what is on divinumofficium.
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I double checked and divinumofficium.com indeed has the wrong date. Yesterday was May 25th and according to both the 1962 Missal and the Diurnale I own it was the 3rd Class Feast of Pope St. Gregory VII with a commemoration for Pope St. Urban I. According to the same, May 27th (tomorrow) is the 3rd Class Feast of St. Bede the Venerable.

Divinumofficium.com incorrectly listed May 25th as the Feast of St. Bede the Venerable and May 27th as the Feast of St Augustine of Canterbury. Since none of these feasts are 1st Class the psalmody is taken from the ferial office so when you prayed Lauds yesterday you accidentally prayed the correct psalms. I’m not sure if you were looking at the wrong date on divinumofficium.com because all of the antiphons, hymns, scripture readings, and collects were wrong. The antiphons for May 25th listed are taken from the Common of non-Pope Confessors (i.e. St. Bede) and the collect explicitly mentions St. Bede:
divinumofficium.com:
Deus qui Ecclesiam tuam, beati Bedae Confessoris tui atque Doctoris, eruditione clarificas: concede propitius famulis tuis: eius semper illustrari sapientia et meritis adiuvari.
Per Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum …
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Be advised that tomorrow’s office, May 27th (for the Feast of St. Bede the Venerable) is incorrectly listed on divinumofficium.com as that of St. Augustine of Canterbury (which actually isn’t until May 28th, the day after tomorrow). So if you use divinumofficium.com tomorrow set the date to May 25th, and then on the day after tomorrow set it to May 27th. All looks correct beginning this Sunday, the 29th, the 2nd Sunday after Pentecost.

EDIT: Never mind! The error was on my part. I had no idea that the settings were set to “1960 New Calendar”, the existence of which I find bizarre. Why would anyone need to pray the 1960 Divine Office while using the modern calendar? Is this an option provided for by divinumofficium.com alone or does the Catholic Church allow for the mixing of the new calendar with the old liturgy?
 
landon13 said:
Hi y’all,

So I’m a college student and have been trying to get more into a spiritual routine. I know and have prayed the Christian Prayer from the post-conciliar LOTH, but did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it. I wanted something more, if that makes sense.

So I’m just looking for suggestions on a devotion or something that is similar but also won’t break the bank too much for me. And, one that can be prayed without spending too many hours in monastic seclusion.

Thank y’all
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Yes, it does make sense. You might like one of these:

Lauds, Vespers, Compline in English (Liturgical Press)

Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary
 
I’m just looking for something more traditional that is a lot more than just the morning and evening prayers from my prayer book or my daily rosary.

When I go to divinum officium, I am totally confused as to what hours I should pray, especially if I am just wanting to do morning and evening prayer and probably compline as well.

I may try out the little office of the Blessed Virgin…but I’m just not sure.
 
landon13 said:
I’m just looking for something more traditional that is a lot more than just the morning and evening prayers from my prayer book or my daily rosary.

When I go to divinum officium, I am totally confused as to what hours I should pray, especially if I am just wanting to do morning and evening prayer and probably compline as well.

I may try out the little office of the Blessed Virgin…but I’m just not sure.
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If you are confused by the correspondence of the names from times past to today, the parallels are:

Matins = Office of Readings (This corresponds to Vigils in the monastic scheme)
Lauds = Morning Prayer
Prime has no equivalent as Blessed Paul VI suppressed this hour in the revised format
Terce = Mid-morning prayer
Sext = Mid-day prayer
None = Mid-afternoon prayer
Vespers = Evening Prayer
Compline = Night Prayer

I am sorry but somehow I am failing to grasp your question beyond that. If you say the full round of the Liturgy of the Hours – and normally we pick one hour for Daytime Prayer as opposed to all three – it takes about 45 minutes…that is Office of Readings, Morning Prayer, Daytime Prayer, Evening Prayer and Night Prayer. You will have said 11 to 12 psalms, one Old Testament canticle and one New Testament canticle, five Scriptural readings plus a reading from either a Father of the Church or from some saint or Church document; you will have prayed all three Gospel canticles. You will have four or five hymns plus the liturgical greeting to the Blessed Virgin…but you say this is not enough…you want more. More in quantity? More in what way?
So I’m a college student and have been trying to get more into a spiritual routine. I know and have prayed the Christian Prayer from the post-conciliar LOTH, but did not really feel that into it or fulfilled with it. I wanted something more, if that makes sense.
Click to expand...
So I’m just looking for suggestions on a devotion or something that is similar but also won’t break the bank too much for me. And, one that can be prayed without spending too many hours in monastic seclusion.
Click to expand...
As a priest, no it does not really make sense to me. You will have to try to articulate what you mean by “wanted something more”. If you are wanting more psalms, you can go to one of the monastic offices.

After the Eucharist, which is the source and summit of the Christian life as articulated by Sacrosanctum Concilium, there is no prayer more excellent than the Liturgy of the Hours. It is the public prayer of the Church and is to be preferred to any mere private devotion – and by God’s gracious gift, it is now easily and readily accessible to the laity in a way it was not prior to the Council.

You say it is not fulfilling to you but I have no information as to what aspect of it is not fulfilling. You would have to explain that a bit more.

I have to wonder if, rather than a more elaborate version of the Office, you might not profit from looking at the Oblates of Saint Benedict or one of the third orders secular which would help you, through the patrimony of their charism and the formation one goes through and the particular rule of life unique to each one, to integrate the praying of the Office with others aspects of prayer which would help you to have a richer and fuller and more fruitful prayer life? The Benedictines, for example, with their emphasis on Lectio Divina or the Carmelites with the exercise of mental prayer or the Dominicans and their particular form of contemplation, as but three examples.

I can’t offer much help, I’m afraid, until I better understand the issue and also have some insight into what might fit your particular disposition. Rather than engaging a priest online who does not know you, might I suggest you speak to your priest where you are…or better, ask one for spiritual direction…to help you be aware of the different facets the prayer life can take and to help you discover what might best fit you?
 
landon13 said:
I’m just looking for something more traditional that is a lot more than just the morning and evening prayers from my prayer book or my daily rosary.

When I go to divinum officium, I am totally confused as to what hours I should pray, especially if I am just wanting to do morning and evening prayer and probably compline as well.

I may try out the little office of the Blessed Virgin…but I’m just not sure.
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My very strong suggestion is to pray the current Liturgy of the Hours. It is very much designed to accommodate busy secular life, while at the same time allowing for a bit more if one has the time or inclination. It is also the Universal Prayer of the entire Church.

Fr. Ruggero pointed out the newer nomenclature for the hours (you can still use the old names). Since you are not bound to the Office, you can pretty much pray any combination that suits you. However as the main offices of the day, Morning Prayer (Lauds) and Evening Prayer (Vespers) are particularly recommended; Compline too (at bed time) is a nice way to end the day.

So for those not bound to the Office, as above. For those bound to the Office:

Office of Readings (Vigils), can be said at any time but traditionally is nocturnal (I pray it very early in the morning or by anticipation the previous evening).
Morning Prayer (Lauds), early in the morning (sunrise to roughly 8 am)
Mid-day prayer (can be prayed at any one of the hours of Terce, Sext or None), roughly 9 am, noon and 3 pm
Evening Prayer (Vespers), early in the evening, from 4 pm to roughly 8 pm
Night Prayer (Compline), before retiring for the night

Note, those times are flexible and just given as examples.

For those bound to choir (basically: religious), to the above is added Terce, Sext and None, one of which is mid-day prayer as above, and the other two hours from the complementary psalter (the Gradual Psalms, which have a deep tradition at these hours in the monastic tradition).

It’s incorrect to say that the Liturgy of the Hours isn’t traditional enough. It is in fact strongly anchored in a tradition of sanctifying the day by praying the psalms that goes back to Judaism of the time of David. Because the psalter has been spread out over 4 weeks or some minor structural changes have been made does not make it any less “traditional”. To say so is to misunderstand tradition and limits “tradition” to superficialities. The Office can and is still said in Gregorian chant and in Latin in many places; the antiquity of the psalms and canticles remain, it is firmly founded in scripture, and it keeps alive a tradition going back thousands of years. Many of the psalms are still in their traditional places (109, 140 at Vespers,62 at Lauds, for example), and the last week of the 4-week cycle is entirely from the early monastic cursus.

That its most recent reformation made it more flexible for different states (diocesan priest, cleric, religious), and made it eminently accessible to the laity in languages they can understand, IMHO reinforce “tradition” rather than detract from it, because it makes the Office more likely to be said, and taken up by a small but growing number of laity. As such it reinforces and grows the Body of Christ.
 
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