Traditional Latin Mass--Torn

[JimR-OCDS]

the phoenix

In the Novus Ordo Mass, I’d gotten used to the understanding that Jesus is Truly Present in the Holy Eucharist, and sometimes, especially on hearing a good sermon for example, I would sense the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

But God the Father seemed distant to me.

How could this be? The prayers of the Mass are to the Father, not to Jesus. How is it that you miss this in an English worded Mass, but found it in a Latin one?

This has helped me to better understand the Mass as a complete whole.

What helped me understand the Mass more, is simply learning about it. Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lambs Supper,” blew me away. I read it while on retreat at St. Joseph’s Abbey. The Monks say the Mass in English, and they chant the traditional Gregorian Chant hymns, only in English. To this day, no Mass has ever given me the experience of heaven touching earth, as that Mass did.

When I received the precious blood from Fr Basil Pennington(RIP), I felt the presence of Christ so strong, that it was like He was presenting me with the cup.

It is Christ who gives us these moments of contemplation, and he does so, according to our needs. It can happen at Mass TLM or NO, or while quietly praying in your bed room.

The thing is, you’ll remember the experience profoundly, and will be drawn back to that place or event, time and time again.

Jim

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think that the Holy Spirit called for some changes in the Mass. If we look in the years before Vat. II, not many people were active at Mass. Most simply prayed the rosary and went up to receive the Eucharist. Perhaps what we are witnessing now is a wake up call (very rude wake up call at that) from the Holy Spirit that forces us to see what the Liturgy is like when there is no structure, or at least when the priest doesn’t follow the structure. Who knows, maybe there will be a Vat. III in a few years:shrug:

Please, please, please! This is a myth! A pernicious myth! If you think that people didn’t know how to follow along in our missals, you are sadly and erroneously mistaken! Yes, there were little old ladies who prayed the rosary. Is this a case of “if you say it enough, it must be true”?

Am I the only one on these forums who has a different understanding and memory of what I experienced prior to Vatican II?

 

[palmas85]

Please, please, please! This is a myth! A pernicious myth! If you think that people didn’t know how to follow along in our missals, you are sadly and erroneously mistaken! Yes, there were little old ladies who prayed the rosary. Is this a case of “if you say it enough, it must be true”?

Am I the only one on these forums who has a different understanding and memory of what I experienced prior to Vatican II?

I’ve been fighting the battle of rosaries for years on these forums. It’ll die down and then somebody, who wasn’t even alive more than likely will jump in and start it all over again.

So I’ll say it again, yes there were people who prayed the RosarY during Mass. Guess what?

THERE STILL ARE

Most people didn’t. Most people prayed along with the Priest. Imagine that, actually praying along with the Priest. Not just on occasion, but throughout the entire Mass. I know many who did just that.

So please lets put the old myths to rest. Whatta ya say?. Isn’t it time they all just went away once and for all? You know them right?? I mean they’ve been around since the days of those great seekers of truth in faith, Luther, Wycliffe and Huss. Thousands of old ladies and others, huddled in the pews mindlessly saying rosaries because they didn’t know what was going on. No enlightenment at all, not like today:thumbsup: No clue about the faith and kept in abject ignorance by the evil PRIESTS: :bigyikes: who mangled the Mass, mumbled the words and made a mockery of all that was good and holy. Why they probably didn’t even say the prayers of consecration and you’d never know because the Mass was in…

                        :bigyikes:        **L***a***t***i***n**       :bigyikes:

And guess what, not everyone received at every Mass. THE HORROR OF IT ALL THE HORROR. The Priests did though didn’t they? Just to keep the laity down, oh yes. And lets not forget the speed masses while we’re at it, you know the 7minute no wait was it 5? no in my old parish we had 3 minute masses. The altar boys loved em and the Priest made a Killing on all Souls Day saying a thousand masses a day:thumbsup: . PRIVATE MASSES no less, Just imagine, the Priest could say anything he wanted, maybe even statements like Bread thou art and bread thou will remain or something equally as clever. Oh and lets not forget private devotions while we’re at it. No one and I mean no one went to Mass for the Liturgy. It was all for private devotions and thats just how the Priests wanted them Fat dumb and happy in the pews while the Priests kept all the graces to themselves, doling them out piecemeal a bit at a time.

I say goodbye and good riddance to all those myths kept alive by the more progressive thinkers for one reason and one reason only. So that they can transform this Church into exactly what they want it to be, and not what it ever was or was intended to be.

 

[otjm]

I’ve been fighting the battle of rosaries for years on these forums. It’ll die down and then somebody, who wasn’t even alive more than likely will jump in and start it all over again.

So I’ll say it again, yes there were people who prayed the RosarY during Mass. Guess what?

THERE STILL ARE

Most people didn’t. Most people prayed along with the Priest. Imagine that, actually praying along with the Priest. Not just on occasion, but throughout the entire Mass. I know many who did just that.

So please lets put the old myths to rest. Whatta ya say?. Isn’t it time they all just went away once and for all? You know them right?? I mean they’ve been around since the days of those great seekers of truth in faith, Luther, Wycliffe and Huss. Thousands of old ladies and others, huddled in the pews mindlessly saying rosaries because they didn’t know what was going on. No enlightenment at all, not like today:thumbsup: No clue about the faith and kept in abject ignorance by the evil PRIESTS: :bigyikes: who mangled the Mass, mumbled the words and made a mockery of all that was good and holy. Why they probably didn’t even say the prayers of consecration and you’d never know because the Mass was in…

                        :bigyikes:        **L***a***t***i***n**       :bigyikes:

And guess what, not everyone received at every Mass. THE HORROR OF IT ALL THE HORROR. The Priests did though didn’t they? Just to keep the laity down, oh yes. And lets not forget the speed masses while we’re at it, you know the 7minute no wait was it 5? no in my old parish we had 3 minute masses. The altar boys loved em and the Priest made a Killing on all Souls Day saying a thousand masses a day:thumbsup: . PRIVATE MASSES no less, Just imagine, the Priest could say anything he wanted, maybe even statements like Bread thou art and bread thou will remain or something equally as clever. Oh and lets not forget private devotions while we’re at it. No one and I mean no one went to Mass for the Liturgy. It was all for private devotions and thats just how the Priests wanted them Fat dumb and happy in the pews while the Priests kept all the graces to themselves, doling them out piecemeal a bit at a time.

I say goodbye and good riddance to all those myths kept alive by the more progressive thinkers for one reason and one reason only. So that they can transform this Church into exactly what they want it to be, and not what it ever was or was intended to be.

OK, you have had your little rant. I wa there long before theOF came about. and I really don’t care if you don’t believe it, but there were a whole lot more people sitting in Mass “meeting their obligation” than there were reading out of a missal. I went through 8 grades at the local Catholic school, and out of those years, there weren’t more than two classmates who ahd a missal besides me. 'Why? Because their parents didn’t. better than half the congregation didn’t have a missal. that is why so many my age will say one of the best things that happened to the Mass was having it in the vernacular.

As to the rest of it, if you have to blow that much snot, next time use a hanky. Your romantic musings on how great it was are just that. We can both agree that the OF was not what the Council had in mind. We can agree that catechesis took a left hand turn and fell of the face of the earth, and is only now getting the parachute out and trying to land back on earth. But get over the romantic idea that the masses of people were horrified, shattered and nearly driven from the faith wiht the introduction of the OF. Some, like brotherolf, seriously miss the EF, and a whole lot, who want the Mass in the vernacular, don’t.

 

[tcraig]

I wa there long before theOF came about. and I really don’t care if you don’t believe it, but there were a whole lot more people sitting in Mass “meeting their obligation” than there were reading out of a missal.

And today it’s different how? Well, if we discount the people who simply don’t show up at mass anymore …

A missal is nice for those who like them. I use a missal at both the NO and the TLM; my husband and son never use theirs. Use of a missal is a poor indicator of how much one is “participating” in the mass.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

We never had an altar server at Wednesday’s TLM. I couldn’t remember all those years back what happened at Communion if there was no altar served to hold the paten. Would they do like at my NO Church and do without? Nope! As we were kneeling we each held the paten under as we were receiving. Now…for some reason that brought me to tears when I got back to my pew.,…I know…I know…strange huh?

:heart:Blyss

 

[JimR-OCDS]

We never had an altar server at Wednesday’s TLM. I couldn’t remember all those years back what happened at Communion if there was no altar served to hold the paten. Would they do like at my NO Church and do without? Nope! As we were kneeling we each held the paten under as we were receiving. Now…for some reason that brought me to tears when I got back to my pew.,…I know…I know…strange huh?

:heart:Blyss

Back when I was growing up, in pre-Vatican II days, they were never without an altar boy to serve. However, our parish had a Catholic school, and there were plenty of boys scheduled to serve. They also took it seriously, unlike today where if they don’t feel like serving, they just don’t show up. Of course this is true for lectors and EMHC’s, lately. Can’t make it? Don’t worry, they’ll get along without you. So the pastor has to scramble and pull some one out of the pew, to fill in, at the last minute.

Jim

 

[homewardbound]

So I guess from some of the posts I’ve read here, I shouldn’t attend the EF since I don’t know Latin?

There are pros and cons to both forms for me. I like the OF since, well, I can understand everything that is said. But, its almost impossible to find a parish that does it right around here, the priests always wanna throw in their own stuff.

The EF, yeah its in Latin and I don’t know much Latin at all yet. But its much more beautiful and reverent. I don’t know if its the Mass itself or the people, maybe its both. All I know is I love the Mass in either form. God is there in both.

Also, I’m not saying the OF cannot be reverent and beautiful. Many many times I have been brought to tears during an OF Mass. Its not the people or the priest or even the words being said that matter(they matter but thats not what makes the Mass so wonderful)…any Mass in either OF or EF will touch our hearts and souls and we can feel the Holy Spirit surround and protect us and possibly be moved to tears…if only we would open our hearts enough to let it. Mass isn’t about what language, or whose doing what, its about how we personally treat and respect the Mass.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

And today it’s different how? Well, if we discount the people who simply don’t show up at mass anymore …

A missal is nice for those who like them. I use a missal at both the NO and the TLM; my husband and son never use theirs. Use of a missal is a poor indicator of how much one is “participating” in the mass.

I wanted to reinforce that the missal is not the be all and end all of participation. Guess what, sometimes when I assist at the EF I leave my missal unopened on the pew - oh! for shame, I don’t participate! Participation comes from uniting one’s own prayer/sacrifice to that of the priest. Sometimes I find that putting the missal down helps me do that better than following along with it. And even if someone had never before seen a full translation of the Mass, he would still be able to unite his prayer to the priest’s, just as I’m sure some people did in days gone by (and, let’s all be honest, others didn’t). Missals have been a great tool for many people toward better participation, but there is no need to hold them up as proof of participation, and in fact they don’t tell you any more than saying that most people at the OF are vocalizing the responses. That doesn’t prove at all whether they are actually participating at Mass or not.

So for the OP: it doesn’t matter one whit whether you know Latin. If you know the reasons why we offer Christ to the Father in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, you don’t need a missal, you don’t need to take a course, you just need to show up and offer your prayers with these ends in mind. Over time you should try to receive formation that will help you understand what is happening better (the texts, the different sections and actions of the rite, the history behind them, etc.) but they are not at all necessary to start.

 

[otjm]

And today it’s different how? Well, if we discount the people who simply don’t show up at mass anymore …

A missal is nice for those who like them. I use a missal at both the NO and the TLM; my husband and son never use theirs. Use of a missal is a poor indicator of how much one is “participating” in the mass.

Prior to Vatican 2, it was a rare person who actually could carry on a conversation in Latin. Most who were taught Latin were taught it as a translated language, not a spoken language. I have not said, do not say, and never will say that anyone at a Mass in Latin is not participating. However, the dgree of participation is certainly limited when one simply does not know what the priest is saying at any given moment. Try going to a Mass in Viet Namese if you don’t understand what I am saying.

Those who used a missal were able to follow along much more readily and intelligently with the priest, but the fact of the matter was that the majority of people (majority being over 50%) did not have a missal. Whether they were to lazy to get one, not interested, too poor, or for whatever reason, the missals while not rare were not frequent, as each individual had to purchase one; there was not one in the pew for common use per person.

I am not saying that your son or husband do not participate at a TLM without a missal, but I do suggest that they could participate more fully by following along with the prayers of the priest.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have a question for those who prefer the Latin Mass.

When you reflect on the meaning of the Mass, do you reflect in your language, or in Latin?

Jim

 

[GladCatholic]

I am not saying that your son or husband do not participate at a TLM without a missal, but I do suggest that they could participate more fully by following along with the prayers of the priest.

I have been attending a Liturgy in neither Latin nor English. It’s a totally foreign language to me. The first day I was following along in English, and put the missal down–it was a distraction. I was able to better unite myself with the prayers of the priest–knowing the Sacrifice he was making on our behalf–than by being distracted with the words in the missal. Of course the beauty of the Liturgy is so stunning that to be distracted by actual reading would almost seem sinful

GC

 

[ashjoybabe]

We attend TLM and I absolutely love it. Even my 5 year old says it gives him more of a sense of peace when attending.

 

[palmas85]

OK, you have had your little rant. I wa there long before theOF came about. and I really don’t care if you don’t believe it, but there were a whole lot more people sitting in Mass “meeting their obligation” than there were reading out of a missal. I went through 8 grades at the local Catholic school, and out of those years, there weren’t more than two classmates who ahd a missal besides me. 'Why? Because their parents didn’t. better than half the congregation didn’t have a missal. that is why so many my age will say one of the best things that happened to the Mass was having it in the vernacular.

As to the rest of it, if you have to blow that much snot, next time use a hanky. Your romantic musings on how great it was are just that. We can both agree that the OF was not what the Council had in mind. We can agree that catechesis took a left hand turn and fell of the face of the earth, and is only now getting the parachute out and trying to land back on earth. But get over the romantic idea that the masses of people were horrified, shattered and nearly driven from the faith wiht the introduction of the OF. Some, like brotherolf, seriously miss the EF, and a whole lot, who want the Mass in the vernacular, don’t.

In my post I never mentioned a Missal at all. Sorry. In fact, I didn’t say anything deroguatory about the Pauline Rite except that some people still pray the Rosary during them, probably the same people that prayed them during the Traditional as a matter if fact. I didn’t say that millions left the faith or that the laity was shocked and horrified by what happened to our beloved Mass or that the Priesthood was decimated and the religious life took a beating. Could have said it, and it would have been true, but I didn’t.

I also didn’t degrade you or insult you. I merely pointed out that all the myths that some, maybe even you, would have us believe about the Traditional Mass were mainly just that, myths. Made up in the early days of the Reformation by those who had an agenda and that agenda was to destroy the Catholic faith as it was. And to this day still brought up for the same purpose.

I also pointed out that it was high time those myths die and go away for good,

Why does that disturb you so much?

PS, I was around back in those days too bud. Lets be staright about that one OK? You have your experiences in life and I have mine. And I can honestly tell you that to my experience more harm than good came from the Council,and that my friend is a pretty demonstrable fact if by nothing more than sheer numbers alone…

 

[theistgal]

I usually go to the Byzantine Catholic church but last Sunday I went to the 8:00 a.m. “NO” Mass at a wonderful church in Silverlake (CA) called St. Casimir’s Lithuanian Catholic Church.

I’ve been here several times over the past 10+ years and am always pleased with what I see. This Sunday the church was packed with people, yet there were no “eucharistic ministers”, and the only one on the altar besides the priest was the gentleman reading the Epistle. The Consecration was very reverent and there was a palpable feeling of holiness and reverence throughout.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have a question for those who prefer the Latin Mass.

When you reflect on the meaning of the Mass, do you reflect in your language, or in Latin?

Jim

I have a question for you, Jim. Did my Irish ancestors who were forced to worship in secret in the hedge rows and pastures reflect in Latin? Did Bede or Alcuin reflect in Latin or in Old English? I can go on and on…but I will say this, thirty-five years ago I was in the Navy and in Spain. I went to Mass locally and at a large cathedral. (Spain was not exactly enthusiastic about adopting the NO in '72). The Mass was the TLM. Of course I reflected in English but I participated in Latin - the universal language of HMC.

 

[otjm]

In my post I never mentioned a Missal at all. Sorry. In fact, I didn’t say anything deroguatory about the Pauline Rite except that some people still pray the Rosary during them, probably the same people that prayed them during the Traditional as a matter if fact. I didn’t say that millions left the faith or that the laity was shocked and horrified by what happened to our beloved Mass or that the Priesthood was decimated and the religious life took a beating. Could have said it, and it would have been true, but I didn’t.

I also didn’t degrade you or insult you. I merely pointed out that all the myths that some, maybe even you, would have us believe about the Traditional Mass were mainly just that, myths. Made up in the early days of the Reformation by those who had an agenda and that agenda was to destroy the Catholic faith as it was. And to this day still brought up for the same purpose.

I also pointed out that it was high time those myths die and go away for good,

Why does that disturb you so much?

PS, I was around back in those days too bud. Lets be staright about that one OK? You have your experiences in life and I have mine. And I can honestly tell you that to my experience more harm than good came from the Council,and that my friend is a pretty demonstrable fact if by nothing more than sheer numbers alone…

and I anm telling you that your overstatement of facts - not myths - is blowing snot. I grew up pre Vatican 2; I am not trying to pawn off on anyone any myths - non factual observations, stuff made up, exaggerations or any such. It wasn’t a myth, it was a fact of life that we had good and bad Catholics back then, jsut as we do now. You seem to think it was the glory days. It wasn’t; the time had its own set of problems.

Nor have I ever denied that we have our own set of problems today. I just suggest you take off the rose colored glasses when peering back in history.

 

[hasikelee]

I love Latin and the TLM is simply a beautiful experience.

No matter how drawn I am to it, though, I feel it lost something important as it progressed.

Sometimes at a TLM I find myself thinking that Jesus never attended one.

The TLM was born from a world of kings, queens, conquerors and old Europe. Its beauty and practices were that of a kingdom of a specific era and it reflects that antiquity.

The title of this thread is very accurate…torn…

It doesn’t help that the people at my TLM parish are very stuffy and remind me of the Pharisees Jesus so strongly condemned.

Perhaps with this new change for the TLM to be more available, it will change a little…

 

[Dauphin]

I love Latin and the TLM is simply a beautiful experience.

No matter how drawn I am to it, though, I feel it lost something important as it progressed.

Sometimes at a TLM I find myself thinking that Jesus never attended one.

The TLM was born from a world of kings, queens, conquerors and old Europe. Its beauty and practices were that of a kingdom of a specific era and it reflects that antiquity.

The title of this thread is very accurate…torn…

It doesn’t help that the people at my TLM parish are very stuffy and remind me of the Pharisees Jesus so strongly condemned.

Perhaps with this new change for the TLM to be more available, it will change a little…

Beyond the last supper, Jesus never attended a Mass. The Church’s Liturgy has been left to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it produced a great liturgy of the church that has its roots well before the high middle ages (think St. Gregory the Great).

 

[the_phoenix]

I have a question for those who prefer the Latin Mass.

When you reflect on the meaning of the Mass, do you reflect in your language, or in Latin?

Jim

Both, and neither.

English mainly, of course.

Latin at times … While so far I’ve never chosen to use a missal, I do make sure to get a copy of the Propers in both Latin and English to take with me to read later that night. And sometimes a phrase here or there in Latin will come to me during the day or night, something sung by the choir like “ASPERGES ME” or “CREDO IN UNUM DEUM” or “ET HOMO FACTUS EST” or “ET UNAM, SANCTAM, CATHOLICAM ET APOSTOLICAM ECCLESIAM” or “SED LIBERA NOS A MALO”.

Now, I have studied three years of Latin in high school many years ago, and when I was a student, I loved the language so much that I dreamed in it. In the dream, a lion appeared in my driveway so I said, “ECCE, LEONEM EST”. For my Latin class I taught myself the ancient Roman manner of printing the alphabet, so that I wouldn’t confuse my Latin tests and homework with the Spanish I was also studying.

Currently at work, my previous study of Latin helps me understand the Italian translation of the European version of the manuals I proofread.

And rarely, … the love of God transcends language and no earthly tongue is necessary … and perhaps may even be impossible, at least for a mere mortal here on Earth.

~~ the phoenix