Traditional Mass

[Christian_Sr]

I have asked several times about traditional Mass–as in what happened to it? [edited]

 

[Tantum_ergo]

In the late 1960s the Mass changed. The intent was to make more parts of it in the vernacular which was supposed to help the congregation understand it more fully. However, over the following 40 years many practices which were not authorized nor called for ‘crept in’, becoming known as liturgical abuses. While the ‘old’ Mass sometimes called the "Latin Mass’ was never, repeat never, abrogated, in practice in the U.S. at least almost no one celebrated it for many years though again, during that time, many people requested it. Pope John Paul II issued an indult for its use. When (due to a variety of circumstances) this was still not sufficient, Pope Benedict issued the Motu Proprio which established that Mass as the “extraordinary” form, retaining the ‘vernacular’ as the ordinary form. In the last 10 years or so much effort has gone into reforming and regularizing the ‘ordinary’ form and purging of it liturgical abuses. See this article from the CA site. . .catholic.com/library/liturgical_abuses.asp

 

[japhy]

I have asked several times about traditional Mass–as in what happened to it? [edited]

I would suggest you: [edited] Visit the “Traditional Catholicism” forum to ask questions specifically of this nature.

 

[Christian_Sr]

In the late 1960s the Mass changed. The intent was to make more parts of it in the vernacular which was supposed to help the congregation understand it more fully. However, over the following 40 years many practices which were not authorized nor called for ‘crept in’, becoming known as liturgical abuses. While the ‘old’ Mass sometimes called the "Latin Mass’ was never, repeat never, abrogated, in practice in the U.S. at least almost no one celebrated it for many years though again, during that time, many people requested it. Pope John Paul II issued an indult for its use. When (due to a variety of circumstances) this was still not sufficient, Pope Benedict issued the Motu Proprio which established that Mass as the “extraordinary” form, retaining the ‘vernacular’ as the ordinary form. In the last 10 years or so much effort has gone into reforming and regularizing the ‘ordinary’ form and purging of it liturgical abuses. See this article from the CA site. . .catholic.com/library/liturgical_abuses.asp

Wow! I didn’t realize that there is an actual term for what I have been seeing. The problem I am having is that my wife and I have, at least in heart thought and belief, become Catholic. The problem we are running into is that every Mass we go to is more like a Protestant service than a Mass. We have found a Parish with a ‘Latin Mass’ but it is four hours away. We have already decided that it would be worth the trip at least once if not more. Thank you so much for responding. I will show my wife the link tou gave me and we look at it together.

 

[Christian_Sr]

I would suggest you do two things:

1. Talk to a moderator first before you re-post a thread that they have closed or removed.
2. Visit the “Traditional Catholicism” forum to ask questions specifically of this nature.

I have e-mailed the moderator and am waiting for a reply. Thank you also for responding.

 

[Christian_Sr]

I got a reply and it was a link. I still don’t know what I did wrong.

 

[Cat]

Wow! I didn’t realize that there is an actual term for what I have been seeing. The problem I am having is that my wife and I have, at least in heart thought and belief, become Catholic. The problem we are running into is that every Mass we go to is more like a Protestant service than a Mass. We have found a Parish with a ‘Latin Mass’ but it is four hours away. We have already decided that it would be worth the trip at least once if not more. Thank you so much for responding. I will show my wife the link tou gave me and we look at it together.

My husband and I converted to Catholicism after 47 years as evangelical Protestants.

I’m going to make a suggestion, and I hope you will consider it.

If you are truly becoming Catholic in your thoughts and in your beliefs, you must submit to the Catholic Church as your Authority.

The Catholic Church has declared the “new Mass” (which is actually around 40 years old now) as the “Ordinary Form” of the Mass. All of the “innovations” that you feel are “Protestant”, e.g. use of the common language (vernacular), the involvement of the congregation as lectors, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, altar girls, the use of hymns throughout the Mass, etc.–ALL of these are totally approved by the Catholic Church.

My suggest to you is that you should submit to Holy Mother Church when it comes to the Mass, even if it is not your personal preference. Do not spurn or look down on what the Holy Mother Church has declared “good” and “acceptable.” Holy Mother Church is wiser than we are, and if Holy Mother Church allows “Protestant-looking” innovations to the Mass, then who are we to question her?

I think that the trait of questioning what Holy Mother Church has declared “good” is a Protestant trait, and you should try to expunge this tendency to “church hop” out of your life. It’s not a good thing.

Being Catholic isn’t all about Latin and incense and chants, although this is part of the tradition of Catholicism. Being Catholic is all about submitting to Jesus and receiving Him in Holy Communion. Certainly attend Latin Mass when you can, and if you are wealthy enough and have the time, go every week. But don’t look down on your local Ordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[Christian_Sr]

Cat, I understand what you are saying. However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present. If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.

 

[LilyM]

Cat, I understand what you are saying. However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present. If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.

JESUS CHRIST is personally present, in the form of the Eucharist, in every single valid Catholic Mass, no matter what form that Mass takes. His Eucharistic presence is the central point, the reason for being, of the Mass. And His Real Presence is the one thing that you will not get in any Protestant church, no matter how similar their prayers may be. Everything else - all the prayers, the crucifixes and so on - can be said, and done, and put in any place, they won’t make Him a whit more or less present.

Do you know Henry VIII, after his split from Rome and formation of the Anglican Church made almost no changes to the Mass as it was celebrated? If memory serves, the changes - use of English, priest facing the people and so on - pretty much all came in under his son, Edward VI, and daughter, Elizabeth I.

If form is so important, then you’re saying there’s no difference to speak of between Henry’s Anglican masses and those of the Roman Catholics of the day who prayed in VERY much the same form. It simply isn’t so.

Put it this way, I’ve been to ‘high-Anglican’ ‘Masses’ and, they not having His Eucharistic Presence, palpably felt that absence in a way I can’t describe very well. Even though the prayers were quite similar. And after a little while as a Catholic you probably will too.

 

[ibkc]

Cat, I understand what you are saying. However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present. If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.

:hug3:
You are not alone. Know also that by desiring an authentic traditional Catholic experience, you are in no way not submitting to the authority of the Church. The Church has been taking steps to make the traditional mass accessible to all, and our Holy Father wrote last year that he would like to see every parish have at least one Extraordinary Form mass.

Here is a website that lists current EF masses in your state:

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#newmexico

I see two in Albuquerque and two in Santa Fe.

 

[The_Reginator]

:hug3:
You are not alone. Know also that by desiring an authentic traditional Catholic experience, you are in no way not submitting to the authority of the Church. The Church has been taking steps to make the traditional mass accessible to all, and our Holy Father wrote last year that he would like to see every parish have at least one Extraordinary Form mass.

Here is a website that lists current EF masses in your state:

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#newmexico

I see two in Albuquerque and two in Santa Fe.

An aside:
LilyM: If memory serves, the changes - use of English, priest facing the people and so on -
I grew up in the Anglican community. The first time I noticed a priest facing the people was in a Catholic Church.

 

[Like]

I would suggest you do two things:

Visit the “Traditional Catholicism” forum to ask questions specifically of this nature.

Yes Christian Sr. I second this suggestion. However you will see some of the same folks here that favor the OF Mass post in the Traditional Catholicism subforum. And IMHO, a few (not all), post there (The TC Forum) to stir the pot causing confusion, arguing the Traditions of HM Church.

[edited]

Cat, I understand what you are saying. However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present. If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.

Are you Catholic as listed in your profile, revert or protestant? Sorry, but i’m confused because of the wording in your post # 4.

I am a cradle Catholic who was raised in Catholic school in the late 40’s to late 50’s. Whose parents were very traditional & of a very large Catholic family. When the new Mass was introduced we were confused but we obeyed the Church. But abuses began to creep in as early as the mid 70’s and a few protestant friends started making statements like yours above.

Long story short…I and many friends & relatives of my age quit going to Church & some of the younger relatives and friends of theirs even converted to protestants.

 

[Christian_Sr]

First of all I really want to thank everyone for responding to my thread. All of you have helped in one way or another. I also want to add to my original post.

My conversion process started with the acknowledgment and acceptance of Papal authority. I started with the Holy Father and everything else literally fell into place shortly thereafter. I started with submission to the church. as for “Church hopping”, I have already spoken with a friend who happens to be a priest. Our community has five Parishes within fifty miles of my home. It is on my friends suggestion that my wife and I look at each Parish. Being in New Mexico brings with it a wide variety of cultures. So far I have been to a predominately white Parish and a relatively mixed Parish. I am told that there is a Navajo Parish in the northern part of the state. I am not hopping, I am simply seeing the variety of culture that is surrounding me. I grew up in New York with mostly Irish and Italian Catholics–A huge difference from out here.

 

[Cluny]

ALL Eucharistic Liturgies authorized by the Church, celebrated according to liturgical norms are “Traditional Masses.”

<<However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present.>>

And just what do you mean by “form of Catholicism”?

Lutherans and some Episcopalians use incense and may even chant in Latin, but they are thoroughly Protestant.

<<If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.>>

And from your great and detailed study of liturgical history and spirituality, can you tell us just what is “Protestant in form” about the Pauline Missal?

Please be specific.

 

[Christian_Sr]

ALL Eucharistic Liturgies authorized by the Church, celebrated according to liturgical norms are “Traditional Masses.”

<<However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present.>>

And just what do you mean by “form of Catholicism”?

Lutherans and some Episcopalians use incense and may even chant in Latin, but they are thoroughly Protestant.

<<If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.>>

And from your great and detailed study of liturgical history and spirituality, can you tell us just what is “Protestant in form” about the Pauline Missal?

Please be specific.

I have already responded to you privately. What I would like you to be more specific about is being something other than ‘other’ in defining your perspective. Since I am asking this of you, I will be more specific of my own. I am a New Catholic and I will make that distinction in my profile.

 

[ac_claire]

Cat, I understand what you are saying. However, when I go to Mass I would like there to be some form of Catholicism present. If I wanted to go to a Pentecostal or Protestant service I would have. The only thing different that I have seen is that there is a Crucifix and and an alter. I pray that tradition comes back. My wife and I were first interested in the Church because of the centuries of tradition. I realize that there is a ‘new Mass’ , I just wish it wasn’t so Protestant in form.

Hi Christian Sr. I’m from New Mexico also, the southeastern region.

Anyhow, I wanted to ask you…(so that nobody will jump to the conclusion that you’re bucking Church authority and rejecting the new Mass, etc) what specifically is it about the Masses you’ve been to that bothered you, and struck you as being too Protestant?

Because some of the things that bothered you may be just parts of the Ordinary Form, but some of them may be liturgical abuses. It’s important (for your own morale as much as anything) that you know the difference. Liturgical abuses shouldn’t be happening and there are steps that even the laity can take to try and correct them.

 

[Christian_Sr]

Hi Christian Sr. I’m from New Mexico also, the southeastern region.

Anyhow, I wanted to ask you…(so that nobody will jump to the conclusion that you’re bucking Church authority and rejecting the new Mass, etc) what specifically is it about the Masses you’ve been to that bothered you, and struck you as being too Protestant?

Because some of the things that bothered you may be just parts of the Ordinary Form, but some of them may be liturgical abuses. It’s important (for your own morale as much as anything) that you know the difference. Liturgical abuses shouldn’t be happening and there are steps that even the laity can take to try and correct them.

The main issue that I have had is the use of non-Catholic music such as praise and worship style. Also, I was not aware that women could serve the Eucharist. I thought that it was only the priest or deacon that could serve. I’m not trying to nit-pick. I’m new to this and I have questions. I’m not trying to offend anyone or upset anyone, just trying get some simple answers to what I thought were simple questions. That’s all. Also, I’m on the eastern side too.

 

[ac_claire]

The main issue that I have had is the use of non-Catholic music such as praise and worship style. Also, I was not aware that women could serve the Eucharist. I thought that it was only the priest or deacon that could serve. I’m not trying to nit-pick. I’m new to this and I have questions. I’m not trying to offend anyone or upset anyone, just trying get some simple answers to what I thought were simple questions. That’s all. Also, I’m on the eastern side too.

The Praise and Worship music gets to me too. You are so not alone in that concern. As far as women serving the Eucharist…Women are allowed to be Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion when necessary. Boys are still encouraged and recommended first and foremost to be altar servers, but girls are now permitted to be servers as well at the discretion of the Bishop. That last change has come about in my lifetime, it hit Roswell in the 80s and I remember it was a huge controversy at the time. The whole town was split between the two Catholic parishes-- one that allowed altar girls and one that didn’t.

I am from Roswell originally. Are you near Clovis or further north…?

 

[Christian_Sr]

The Praise and Worship music gets to me too. You are so not alone in that concern. As far as women serving the Eucharist…Women are allowed to be Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion when necessary. Boys are still encouraged and recommended first and foremost to be altar servers, but girls are now permitted to be servers as well at the discretion of the Bishop. That last change has come about in my lifetime, it hit Roswell in the 80s and I remember it was a huge controversy at the time. The whole town was split between the two Catholic parishes-- one that allowed altar girls and one that didn’t.

I am from Roswell originally. Are you near Clovis or further north…?

That helps a lot. I’m in Clovis but originally from NY.
For public record I have asked CLUNY to please stop writing to me in private. Private attacks are not appreciated. To everyone else, Again I say thank you for your responses. Kindness goes a long way.

 

[Cluny]

That helps a lot. I’m in Clovis but originally from NY.
For public record I have asked CLUNY to please stop writing to me in private. Private attacks are not appreciated. To everyone else, Again I say thank you for your responses. Kindness goes a long way.

Contrary to what Christian Sr said, I have made no private attacks against him, though what he has written here amounts to a public accusation against me.

I merely did not understand what he meant by “Protesant form” and “lack of Catholic form,” and requested he explain his words.

In his answer to me, it boiled down that he simply did not like so called “Praise and Worship music,” though such ditties are by no means intrinsically Protestant. I have heard one traditional Orthodox chant used in a rather liberal church as a P/W chorus. (He also complained about the behavior of the choir director in not stopping at the appropriate time, but this doesn’t come up to the level of “Catholic/Protestant form” but is simply bad manners on the choir director’s part–at most.)

In the Baptist Church in which I was raised, the deacons would pass out the plates of matzoth and grape juice. Since no women were involved, was this Protestant or Catholic form? After all, are not Deacons historically normal ministers of Holy Communion?

As I have said elsewhere, all such phrases (including the overworked “liturgical abuse”) frequently boil down to no more than “I don’t like this.”